Crown

Coming up in the issue 4/2012. Will be available tomorrow

0-100: 3,8

0-200: 13

Nordscheife 07:52

Hockenheim 1:12,3

and next issue comparison with pana trubo s vs e 63 pp and m5 f10

Very impressive numbers!

The track times are very good especially Hockenheim

But another Porsche with poor SA wet handing time, after the recent test of the 991. The magazine attributes this to the PS tyres that are optimized for dry grip, if I understand well? What type of tyres did the other sport limousines from Mercedes, BMW and Alpina wear and what time of the year they were tested

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"Form follows function"

I just finish reading Pana Turbo S Supertest and one thing is very, very clear-interesting choice of tires made by Porsche. This Michelin tires are optimized for max dry road/track drive dynamics/traction. Wet handling time is very, very bad for AWD car. On the same wet handling track SLS AMG is 10s(!!!) faster with Conti 5SP M0(which are also optimised for max dry traction).

Even HvS is trying to defend Porsche choice of tires in his comments(see wet handling comment).

Pana Turbo S is a great car-I have no doubt in that. Great value? Hmm....

Well...I know why I ordered the Panamera Turbo S.  

Hockenheim performance is actually most impressive...I can't believe it.

0-200 kph performance is kind of disappointing but it could have to do with the turbo charger issues Porsche faced recently. I don't know when the test has been done (it seems that it happened last year, judging by the temperatures mentioned), so it would make sense that this car had turbo charger issues too. The improved (and verified) "titan" turbo chargers should permit a more constant boost pressure at certain rev figures, allowing the car to hit 0-200 kph much earlier than 13 seconds and/or the factory claim.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

For a big heavy car, 7.52 at the Nordschleife is very impressive!

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

KresoF1:

I just finish reading Pana Turbo S Supertest and one thing is very, very clear-interesting choice of tires made by Porsche. This Michelin tires are optimized for max dry road/track drive dynamics/traction. Wet handling time is very, very bad for AWD car. On the same wet handling track SLS AMG is 10s(!!!) faster with Conti 5SP M0(which are also optimised for max dry traction).

Even HvS is trying to defend Porsche choice of tires in his comments(see wet handling comment).

Pana Turbo S is a great car-I have no doubt in that. Great value? Hmm....

I agree, the wet pavement performance should be much better but Porsche seems to adapt the AWD to maximum dry pavement performance. The tires are of course a major player regarding wet pavement performance and I sometimes wonder why the don't find the right compromise between dry and wet, especially on such a car. I still prefer the Michelin Pilot Sport over the Pirelli P-Zero though, which I really don't like, especially in the wet.

Panamera Turbo S a great value ? Well...not really but it is the hell of a performance car...if one wants or needs a sedan.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

interesting thing, the Hockenheim time is 1:12,3 almost the same as the m5 1:12,4. Those care performe nearly identical. (Curios of the outcome of the next issue, where they compare..)

also interesting the gearing of the panemare turbo s, is as useless as the m5 gearing is. 5th gear somewhere 290kmh, 6th gear 350+, 7 th gear 400+

i just dont get it. Why they do that,would not be a very long 7th gear enough for fuel saving and Eu regulations. I am pretty sure Ferrari does it otherwise

Imagine those cars with better gearing ratio.....

Dario:

interesting thing, the Hockenheim time is 1:12,3 almost the same as the m5 1:12,4. Those care performe nearly identical. (Curios of the outcome of the next issue, where they compare..)

also interesting the gearing of the panemare turbo s, is as useless as the m5 gearing is. 5th gear somewhere 290kmh, 6th gear 350+, 7 th gear 400+

i just dont get it. Why they do that,would not be a very long 7th gear enough for fuel saving and Eu regulations. I am pretty sure Ferrari does it otherwise

Imagine those cars with better gearing ratio.....

I'm curious about the next issue too. Also about the M5 tire choice... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Today at my dealer there was a nice triple black Panamera turbo S with carbon interior and , very nice, black painted inscriptions at the back .

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

KresoF1:

I just finish reading Pana Turbo S Supertest and one thing is very, very clear-interesting choice of tires made by Porsche. This Michelin tires are optimized for max dry road/track drive dynamics/traction. Wet handling time is very, very bad for AWD car. On the same wet handling track SLS AMG is 10s(!!!) faster with Conti 5SP M0(which are also optimised for max dry traction).

Even HvS is trying to defend Porsche choice of tires in his comments(see wet handling comment).

Pana Turbo S is a great car-I have no doubt in that. Great value? Hmm....

What are the actual figures for pana turbo s and new m5 on wet handling track? I am curious...

artur777:

What are the actual figures for pana turbo s and new m5 on wet handling track? I am curious...

 Look at Darius scans above

I see now. The results of wet test are not good at all....hope that tires change will improve the result

Conny997:

KresoF1:

I just finish reading Pana Turbo S Supertest and one thing is very, very clear-interesting choice of tires made by Porsche. This Michelin tires are optimized for max dry road/track drive dynamics/traction. Wet handling time is very, very bad for AWD car. On the same wet handling track SLS AMG is 10s(!!!) faster with Conti 5SP M0(which are also optimised for max dry traction).

Even HvS is trying to defend Porsche choice of tires in his comments(see wet handling comment).

Pana Turbo S is a great car-I have no doubt in that. Great value? Hmm....

 

Hmm, don't understand the thing with the dry handling/traction for an AWD. Most benefit of AWD should be in the wet. Under dry conditions a lot of RWD cars are competitive as well. Best instance is the Hockenheim time for the M5 (F10).
And look at the wet handling times for the M5 (E60) compared with the PTS. Very impressing.....

I think Porsche sometimes doesn't get driving dynamics right or better said...driving dynamics priorities. On a car like the Panamera Turbo S, the top priority should be...safety. I really don't understand why this car is so bad on wet pavement because Porsche can do a lot with tire, chassis and PTM setups. I get it, driving dynamics on dry pavement are very important, especially for car reviews but there are possibilities, tire choice and software setups, to get it right in the wet too. I'm pretty curious what kind of tires my PTS will have but I somehow have the feeling that it won't be the Pilot Sport. Which could be a good thing.  The PTS in the photos posted are btw. Pirelli PZero. 

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

Conny997:

KresoF1:

I just finish reading Pana Turbo S Supertest and one thing is very, very clear-interesting choice of tires made by Porsche. This Michelin tires are optimized for max dry road/track drive dynamics/traction. Wet handling time is very, very bad for AWD car. On the same wet handling track SLS AMG is 10s(!!!) faster with Conti 5SP M0(which are also optimised for max dry traction).

Even HvS is trying to defend Porsche choice of tires in his comments(see wet handling comment).

Pana Turbo S is a great car-I have no doubt in that. Great value? Hmm....

 

Hmm, don't understand the thing with the dry handling/traction for an AWD. Most benefit of AWD should be in the wet. Under dry conditions a lot of RWD cars are competitive as well. Best instance is the Hockenheim time for the M5 (F10).
And look at the wet handling times for the M5 (E60) compared with the PTS. Very impressing.....

I think Porsche sometimes doesn't get driving dynamics right or better said...driving dynamics priorities. On a car like the Panamera Turbo S, the top priority should be...safety. I really don't understand why this car is so bad on wet pavement because Porsche can do a lot with tire, chassis and PTM setups. I get it, driving dynamics on dry pavement are very important, especially for car reviews but there are possibilities, tire choice and software setups, to get it right in the wet too. I'm pretty curious what kind of tires my PTS will have but I somehow have the feeling that it won't be the Pilot Sport. Which could be a good thing.  The PTS in the photos posted are btw. Pirelli PZero. 

What I don't like is that the PTS is the second Porsche in a row to get only 1 point in a SA wet handling test, after the 991S. For the 991 there might be some shallow excuse that it is sports car with emphasis on dry grip. But the PTS is a fast family/business transport, AWD and all weather so there is no excuse for ignoring wet grip.

RC, what do your Porsche contacts have to say about this? Ask them to comment please!

"Form follows function"

My Porsche "contacts" are usually providing rumors, not answers.  I will however try to find out, why the reviewed car had Michelin Pilot Sport, while every single PTS I've seen so far at dealers and on the internet seem to have Pirelli PZero. I can't say I'm a fan of the PZero but maybe the Panamera version (N-classification) provided better wet grip with some compromise on dry pavement. I really don't have a clue. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

Very strange situation. On the 991 the P zero were supposed to blame for the unsatisfactory wet handling and we thought that Michelin PS would have been better but on the PTS we assume that the P zero would have given a better wet time than the Michelin fitted..

Come on Porsche sort yourselves out on this issue!

"Form follows function"

reginos:

Very strange situation. On the 991 the P zero were supposed to blame for the unsatisfactory wet handling and we thought that Michelin PS would have been better but on the PTS we assume that the P zero would have given a better wet time than the Michelin fitted..

Come on Porsche sort yourselves out on this issue!

The Panamera uses different tire sizes and of course they are all N-rated. It is really difficult to compare N-rated tires to each other (different Porsche models) because they are different. I don't even know if the PZero would be better on wet pavement. Judging by the PZero I have on my Carrera GTS, I'd say no. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

magnificient performer....

sa a comparison on tv the other day between pana turbo s, m5 and e63.

pana outperformed them. only downsides were that the engine or exhaust noise on the inside is very muted 77db and the the paddle-shifters are soggy and have no clear engagement spot/feedback.

Magnificient performer you say? On DRY road/track for sure.

To repeat SLS AMG Coupe is 10s faster on that wet handling track then Pana Turbo S. 10s faster on track where average wet conditions time is 1.35min.... Do you know what 10s means on track as short as this one? That on wet road or even better wet Nordscheleife difference would be extremly big. Can you imagine that-550ps AWD sportsedan can not follow RWD 571ps Sportscar on wet road or track. Strange, isn't it?

BTW, I drove SLS AMG few times and still think about ordering it. It is truly awsome car IMHO.

kreso, put into context with a mercedes s63/65 or an audi s8......

i meant magnificient performer for a limo (that weighs 2 tons)...which the pana is. it is not a sportscar.

as for sls....yes, it is a lovely car. gives you a lot of the sensory feedback of the italians without bein all too flashy imo + the advantage of bulletproof engineering.......and then there is the sound

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Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

I was disappointed too with the PTS wet track result.

However, it's not something that a road user would realize. After all the Panamera was not conceived as a track favourite.

Having said the above and since this type of tests exist, Porsche should have been more careful with their set up, tyres or whatever else influences these times.

I was much more let down by the 991S wet handling course result than the PTS's.

"Form follows function"

I have a longtime friend who owns, and has owned, just about every high performance car (he currently drives a McLaren and a 458 Italia).  He had an SLS which he had for a short time, but found it to be disappointing compared to his previous SLR and current cars.  Each to his own, but I thought I would pass this along.  Both the McLaren and the Italia are for more exciting to me as well....

The SLS has one major flaw...it has only two seats. I could have had one, Coupe or Roadster at a very interesting price tag, brand-new (my sales person really wants to turn me into a Mercedes guy ) but without the possibility to take the kids with us, no way. 

Regarding the Panamera Turbo S: Yes, apparently the tires play a huge role in wet performance according to a chat I had today. Another reason could have been the fact that the Supertest wet test is done with ESP turned off completely. On the Panamera Turbo S, PTM is part of the safety net, controlling the AWD, ESP and so on. Meaning: With ESP turned off, the PTS is amazing on the track but on wet pavement, the car is better off with ESP turned on. I know this sounds like a lame explanation but I am willing to accept this until I get my car and can create my own and personal opinion about it. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

RC:

Regarding the Panamera Turbo S: Yes, apparently the tires play a huge role in wet performance according to a chat I had today. Another reason could have been the fact that the Supertest wet test is done with ESP turned off completely. On the Panamera Turbo S, PTM is part of the safety net, controlling the AWD, ESP and so on. Meaning: With ESP turned off, the PTS is amazing on the track but on wet pavement, the car is better off with ESP turned on. I know this sounds like a lame explanation but I am willing to accept this until I get my car and can create my own and personal opinion about it. 

Yes, but it remains a AWD car and consequently a RWD car like BMW and Mercedes with ESP off should have been worse in a comparable test. Which is not the case. What do you think?

"Form follows function"

I think that the Michelin Pilot Sport tires Porsche used on the Nordschleife were very very sporty, if you get my drift. I don't want to assume anything but the 7:52 time is quite sensational and I bet that with tires better on wet pavement, the time would have been 4-5 seconds worse. Still impressive though.

Reading the whole text of the Supertest actually indicates that the Panamera Turbo S is a very safe and predictable car on wet pavement but it kind of contradicts a little bit the test result. 

I should also mention that the chassis setup specs were a little bit off vs. the factory recommendations, which hints a little bit towards  the guess that Porsche really put the emphasis on achieving a record lap time on the Nordschleife. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S (June 2012 delivery), Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

An excellent driving report from Zeeshark (as always).

http://www.asphalte.ch/news/2012/03/porsche-panamera-turbo-s-essai/#more-4332