Crown

racerx:

Independent or not, good leaders or not, the proof is in the pudding.

Right now all I can say is that the 911 range is in good hands, the rest is   So let's see if they come up with something worth discussing. Performance w/o looks is blah and vice versa likewise. Look at the competition that they once dominated - Ferrari, Lambo, Aston, Mercedes all better in terms of performance and looks and sales compared to way back when. My memory is very clear on this. Just check the video of Derek Bell in the 956 I posted in O/T and understand what was happening then.

You are aware that Porsche in it's entire history has never been as successful as now? 

Of course the competition has grown stronger but Lamborghini and Aston Martin are barely profitable, Mercedes AMG has the backing of a huge company and same goes to Ferrari (Fiat).

I agree, I miss some kick ass hit the competition hard models but Porsche also has to keep a low(er) profile on the German market for example, mostly because of environmental issues. Huge power figures and insane top speeds could attract too much attention and Germany is still the third largest single market for Porsche, after China and the US.

A bad environmental reputation could kill Porsche sales in Europe substantially. Look at the Cayenne discussions around 2007, when fuel prices started to rise rocket high and the Greens over here starting "targeting" the Porsche Cayenne.

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RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

IMO Porsche as part of the enormous VW Group and given the financial security this affords, should be allowed to concentrate on sportscar models and Motorsport  only, and in this way recover their prestige to the level of the 70s and 80s. Instead of that, we experience a demand by VW for Porsche to increase output to 200.000 units by adding all sorts of mainstream models in the range. I cannot understand why VW want to devalue Porsche when they could produce such cars under a special section of the Audi brand or a performance variety of Bentley. The Macan the future Cayenne or the Panamera replacement  could be special Audi (or Bentley) models under a different Performance diviisions, the equivalent of AMG or BMW M Division. 

The rationale behind the Cayenne and later the Panamera was to fund the independence of Porsche and thus enable the company to fulfill its  objective of producing the best sportscars and winning races. Now that Porsche is a member of the VW Group this raison d'être is no longer valid. Give the SUV and supersaloon patents and blueprints to VW to exploit and concentrate on what Porsche were meant to do.

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"Form follows function"

When it comes to Porsche I care about cars not $$. Are we bean counters or car enthusiasts? Forget the fact that Porsche dominated motorsports - F1, Lemans, even some presence in rally if I remember right.

1)Porsche should have a 4 cylinder, modestly priced intro model - INTRO model not a 911 competitor masquerading as one, good handling, modest power to get people into the brand - They DO NOT have it. That is where the volume would come from.

2) They should have a range topping front engined GT based on itself comparable to the 599/DBS/Aventador , IOW a new 928.

3) an SUV line is fine, just make it look good. same with the 4 door.

Look at Ferrari from a 2 model line-up (Testarossa, 328) they have a 4 model line-up where the 2 orginal models are better than ever and the others, the California is great and the FF is a dog. Look at Aston huge increase in models, quality, and beauty. Look at Lambo, from a shaky 1.5 models (jalpa) to 3 -  the best top exotic, the aventador, the best 2nd stringer - the gallardo, and their new SUV and maybe a sedan. Not to mention the huge increase at AMG/merc.

No way you can look at the situation and say Porsche is in great shape, unless one is just a 911 blinders-wearing diehard and nothing else. The only thing Porsche is great at right now is turning out "limited" editions. All these other brands have left Porsche in the dust, if you are objective. Even muscle cars are way better than ever, Looks, selection and performance!

reginos:

IMO Porsche as part of the enormous VW Group and given the financial security this affords, should be allowed to concentrate on sportscar models and Motorsport  only, and in this way recover their prestige to the level of the 70s and 80s. Instead of that, we experience a demand by VW for Porsche to increase output to 200.000 units by adding all sorts of mainstream models in the range. I cannot understand why VW want to devalue Porsche when they could produce such cars under a special section of the Audi brand or a performance variety of Bentley. The Macan the future Cayenne or the Panamera replacement  could be special Audi (or Bentley) models under a different Performance diviisions, the equivalent of AMG or BMW M Division. 

The rationale behind the Cayenne and later the Panamera was to fund the independence of Porsche and thus enable the company to fulfill its  objective of producing the best sportscars and winning races. Now that Porsche is a member of the VW Group this raison d'être is no longer valid. Give the SUV and supersaloon patents and blueprints to VW to exploit and concentrate on what Porsche were meant to do.

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"Form follows function"

Once again we share the same opinion.

New Porsche line-up to be equivalent to its competitor's growth and improvement

1) 4 cylinder intro model $40K in the US

2) 911 range (with fewer BS models like GT2RS)

3) new 928

4) CGT brought back as ongoing model

5) SUV

6) redesigned panamera

from what it once had - 3 strong models with the 959 cherry on top

reginos:

IMO Porsche as part of the enormous VW Group and given the financial security this affords, should be allowed to concentrate on sportscar models and Motorsport  only, and in this way recover their prestige to the level of the 70s and 80s. Instead of that, we experience a demand by VW for Porsche to increase output to 200.000 units by adding all sorts of mainstream models in the range. I cannot understand why VW want to devalue Porsche when they could produce such cars under a special section of the Audi brand or a performance variety of Bentley. The Macan the future Cayenne or the Panamera replacement  could be special Audi (or Bentley) models under a different Performance diviisions, the equivalent of AMG or BMW M Division. 

The rationale behind the Cayenne and later the Panamera was to fund the independence of Porsche and thus enable the company to fulfill its  objective of producing the best sportscars and winning races. Now that Porsche is a member of the VW Group this raison d'être is no longer valid. Give the SUV and supersaloon patents and blueprints to VW to exploit and concentrate on what Porsche were meant to do.

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"Form follows function"

Beautifully worded, reginos.

I was skeptical when the Cayenne first came to the market, but over time I've grown very fond of it and have an unspeakable love for the Panamera. It is known that the Cayenne [and later, the Panamera] was conceived as a cash cow to help Porsche keep afloat and maintain its independence in a manner not unlike how the Boxster saved the brand in the early 90s. Let's also not forget this simple rule: evolve or die. These cars are natural extensions of the brand and will bring in new customers; imagine selling nothing but 911s, Boxsters and Caymans. The exclusivity will definitely be there, but does that keep an automotive marque alive?

From an emotional aspect, however, I think the Cayenne and Panamera are extremely valuable vehicles and, dare I say it, true Porsches. Yes, they fulfill different purposes than the 911 and Boxster/Cayman and have taken the brand into entirely new territories, but I find that they still represent the spirit of Porsche: sport dynamics par excellence no matter what body it has been placed in. The Cayenne handles better than some sports cars I've driven, and the Panamera - even the detractors have walked away in confused silence at how something this large handles the way it does. 

I find it's a shame that Volkswagen wants to milk the Porsche name by doubling their annual sales, but seeing how Porsche managed to maintain its vaunted exclusivity with the Cayenne/Panamera in the face of all the purists and uproar, perhaps they'll still keep their image with new models. For one, I'm looking very forward to the Macan despite its Audi parentage. I just hope that, in time, profits and margins don't play as massive a role as they are emphasized to and Porsche honors its heritage and maintains its true identity rather than becoming the sporty arm of the VW group. Porsche imbues an emotional magic that plays one's heartstrings like a guitar. Almost no other brand has captured the hearts and minds, emotions and logics of people the way Porsche has over the generations, and that's what keeps people like you and I coming back again and again.

rulesdontapply

racerx:

New Porsche line-up to be equivalent to its competitor's growth and improvement

1) 4 cylinder intro model $40K in the US

2) 911 range (with fewer BS models like GT2RS)

3) new 928

4) CGT brought back as ongoing model

5) SUV

6) redesigned panamera

 

 

 

from what it once had - 3 strong models with the 959 cherry on top

Give 5 and 6 to other manufacturers within VW. No revenue will see lost for the Group but Porsche will appear more focused and unique.

Also, the Boxster  range, particularly the current 981 is a very worthy Porsche.

A GT in the 928 mould in terms of uniqueness and technology is missing. And the so-called 458 rival is long overdue. Both these models in lucrative segments, could bring substantial income to greatly offset the migration of the SUVs and supersaloons to other internal brands.

Bring back the Motorsport aura! Nowadays Audi, BMW and Mercedes are more associated with Motorsport by the public than Porsche, who are resting on the laurels of the past.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

 

Give 5 and 6 to other manufacturers within VW. No revenue will see lost for the Group but Porsche will appear more focused and unique.

Also, the Boxster  range, particularly the current 981 is a very worthy Porsche.

A GT in the 928 mould in terms of uniqueness and technology is missing. And the so-called 458 rival is long overdue. Both these models in lucrative segments, could bring substantial income to greatly offset the migration of the SUVs and supersaloons to other internal brands.

Bring back the Motorsport aura! Nowadays Audi, BMW and Mercedes are more associated with Motorsport by the public than Porsche, who are resting on the laurels of the past.

1) no real need to if the company had grown properly, the extra business would sure help the dealer network thrive.

2) The boxster is NOT an entry level vehicle and is too close in performance to the 911 (some say better at handling) and since it's inception has suffered an image problem.

3) The 928 was far superior to the 308/328/348 of its day and was actually the rival to the Testarossa. A new 928 would/should out-perform the 458 in all areas and rival the 12 cyl ferrari. That just shows how much ground has been lost.

4) Exactly

So Porsche of today is a weak sister to what it once was, at least when one is talking cars.

racerx:

3) The 928 was far superior to the 308/328/348 of its day and was actually the rival to the Testarossa. A new 928 would/should out-perform the 458 in all areas and rival the 12 cyl ferrari. That just shows how much ground has been lost.

The abandonment of the 928 class by Porsche must be one of the worst management decisions in history. Porsche built  and honed a superb car in a rather exclusive segment for almost 20 years only to leave the field free for others to exploit.

 

So Porsche of today is a weak sister to what it once was, at least when one is talking cars.

In terms of engineering and performance Porsche is still strong, I think. But in terms of image it has gone down the ranks. The awe factor is gone.

"Form follows function"

reginos:

But in terms of image it has gone down the ranks. The awe factor is gone.

Maybe in Zyprus?  

In Germany, Porsche usually always wins reader polls when it comes to sports cars and if you ask a little kid what his dream car is, it is either a Porsche or a Ferrari. 

I actually think that the image of Porsche as a whole has improved.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

racerx:

When it comes to Porsche I care about cars not $$. Are we bean counters or car enthusiasts? Forget the fact that Porsche dominated motorsports - F1, Lemans, even some presence in rally if I remember right.

 

1)Porsche should have a 4 cylinder, modestly priced intro model - INTRO model not a 911 competitor masquerading as one, good handling, modest power to get people into the brand - They DO NOT have it. That is where the volume would come from.

They did it once with the 924 and 944...huge mistake. Not going to happen soon.

2) They should have a range topping front engined GT based on itself comparable to the 599/DBS/Aventador , IOW a new 928.

A new "928", which would probably translate into a Panamera Coupe, would hurt 911 sales right now. 

3) an SUV line is fine, just make it look good. same with the 4 door.

Don't have a problem with looks and according to sales figures, I think Porsche is good. 

 

Look at Ferrari from a 2 model line-up (Testarossa, 328) they have a 4 model line-up where the 2 orginal models are better than ever and the others, the California is great and the FF is a dog. Look at Aston huge increase in models, quality, and beauty. Look at Lambo, from a shaky 1.5 models (jalpa) to 3 -  the best top exotic, the aventador, the best 2nd stringer - the gallardo, and their new SUV and maybe a sedan. Not to mention the huge increase at AMG/merc.

Fiat is behind Ferrari, people tend to forget that. Also look at Ferrari earnings and Porsche earnings...Porsche does much better. Also don't forget the markets Porsche builds their cars for. In Germany or even the rest of Europe, flashy cars aren't really bestsellers. 

 

No way you can look at the situation and say Porsche is in great shape, unless one is just a 911 blinders-wearing diehard and nothing else. The only thing Porsche is great at right now is turning out "limited" editions. All these other brands have left Porsche in the dust, if you are objective. Even muscle cars are way better than ever, Looks, selection and performance!

Porsche is in great shape, just look at their numbers. Maybe you forgot but Porsche wants to make money, not impress midlife crisis affected people. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

As a boy, I loved the 928 ... but back then I had no idea about the joys of driving a RWD rear engined car.

Now, the idea of driving a front engined RWD car just reminds me of a BMW or Mercedes.

If you want that in a coupe, just get a BMW 6 series.

Also, do correct me if I am mistaken, but I thought the 928 was originally seen as a replacement for the 911. But the replacement was discontinued while the original carried on because customers wanted it ... isn't that how it played out?

997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red

easy_rider911:

Also, do correct me if I am mistaken, but I thought the 928 was originally seen as a replacement for the 911. But the replacement was discontinued while the original carried on because customers wanted it ... isn't that how it played out?

That's exactly how it played out. No company decision had to be taken to kill the model off. The customers had already decided to stop buying it. 

Mind you, the customers' decision had been helped along by the fact that Porsche was in financially dire straits in the early 1990s anyway and in no position to invest the billion DMs which would have been needed to develop and tool up for production of a more modern replacement for the 928, having already spent a large portion of that sum on developing the stillborn 989. 

fritz

RC:

reginos:

But in terms of image it has gone down the ranks. The awe factor is gone.

Maybe in Zyprus?  

In Germany, Porsche usually always wins reader polls when it comes to sports cars and if you ask a little kid what his dream car is, it is either a Porsche or a Ferrari. 

I actually think that the image of Porsche as a whole has improved.

Definitely, Porsche has lost its exclusivity In most markets because of its expansion to the mainstream.. People who can afford iti want more special names like Ferrari, Maserati, Aston Martin etc. Moreover, BMW friends for example, wouldn't change their X5 for a Cayenne although Porsche should be a more special name in theory. Porsche doesn't have the cachet of previous eras. It has been equated with premium sector German brands and demoted from the Ferrari class.

This doesn't mean the actual products are not good (generally they are even better than before, but so are everybody else's) but in terms of image they are not what they used to be. In Germany kids may dream of a Porsche equally to a Ferrari, because Porsche is part of German automotive history and perhaps they visited the Museum or the factory and received some positive images and influence. 

Having said the above I am 100% Porsche but I find that some self evaluation is always healthy. 

"Form follows function"

Another thought on the 928: I liked much better how the 928 looked at that time (vs. the 911) but it was a heavy car and it was missing the sporty feel of the 911. I actually think that the 928 was ahead of it's time, which can be a problem too for a car maker.

Today, a 928 successor would be very welcomed. I would have loved to buy a Panamera Coupe but there is none.

While waiting for a tire change on my Mini Countryman, I was looking at a beautiful BMW M6 Cabriolet at my dealer. Huge car, indeed but a lot of room for the family incl. luggage.

Only downside: The sticker price was close to 160k EUR but my dealer already shaved 20k off the sticker price and the lease deal would have been interesting too. That said, I think that a Panamera Coupe could be successful but it needs to look more sports car like than the Panamera sedan. The price tag however could be a problem for Porsche because the Coupe would probably be at least 5% more expensive than the sedan.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, BMW X5M, Mercedes C63 AMG Coupe PP/DP, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

easy_rider911:

As a boy, I loved the 928 ... but back then I had no idea about the joys of driving a RWD rear engined car.

Now, the idea of driving a front engined RWD car just reminds me of a BMW or Mercedes.

If you want that in a coupe, just get a BMW 6 series.
 

Porsche abandoned a very serious segment, that of the front engined GT coupe after almost 20 years. In future they have to reestablish themselves in a niche they occupied but is presently owned by Mercedes, BMW but also Maserati, Aston and Ferrari. What a product strategy!

The 928 was amazing in its time. A real express with serious speed, stability and agile handling to  911's quirky manners, V8 power, rear transaxle and a great cabin. 

"Form follows function"

reginos:

The 928 was amazing in its time. 

Very true.
It's time was from 1978 until about 1989, but it remained on offer until about 1994/95, by which time no-one was buying it any more.

fritz

A lot of stuff up there ^^, too much to respond to everything, but it is more enlightened than it was years ago, I will just touch on highlights

easy_rider911:

As a boy, I loved the 928 ... but back then I had no idea about the joys of driving a RWD rear engined car.

Now, the idea of driving a front engined RWD car just reminds me of a BMW or Mercedes.

If you want that in a coupe, just get a BMW 6 series.

Also, do correct me if I am mistaken, but I thought the 928 was originally seen as a replacement for the 911. But the replacement was discontinued while the original carried on because customers wanted it ... isn't that how it played out?

Take away all those great electric nannies that Porsche has engineered and we would see a different take on driving a rear engined car.

Try to think of a ZR-1 or an SLS when you think of how a modern 928 would handle. Both with an identicle lay-out as the 928 powertrain.

It was viewed as a replacement when first thought up in 1970 because the air-cooled and safety challeneged 911 was thought to be un-sustainable in the US market. That changed during the 7 year development process. You can't replace something with something else that is 50% more expensive. Price killed that idea, not performance.

Get a BMW 6 series? You are not thinking on the same/proper level Easy. If produced today, the 928's competitors would be the 599, DBS, and Aventador NOT the pedestrian 6  series. In luxury and performance the 928 was tops in its day - the 80's.

RC:

Another thought on the 928: I liked much better how the 928 looked at that time (vs. the 911) but it was a heavy car and it was missing the sporty feel of the 911. I actually think that the 928 was ahead of it's time, which can be a problem too for a car maker.

Today, a 928 successor would be very welcomed. I would have loved to buy a Panamera Coupe but there is none.

Only downside: The sticker price was close to 160k EUR but my dealer already shaved 20k off the sticker price and the lease deal would have been interesting too. That said, I think that a Panamera Coupe could be successful but it needs to look more sports car like than the Panamera sedan. The price tag however could be a problem for Porsche because the Coupe would probably be at least 5% more expensive than the sedan.

reginos:

Porsche abandoned a very serious segment, that of the front engined GT coupe after almost 20 years. In future they have to reestablish themselves in a niche they occupied but is presently owned by Mercedes, BMW but also Maserati, Aston and Ferrari. What a product strategy!

The 928 was amazing in its time. A real express with serious speed, stability and agile handling to  911's quirky manners, V8 power, rear transaxle and a great cabin. 

 

At 3150 lbs I don't see my 928 as a heavy car (85 S2), solid feel yes but not heavy in performance at all. Reginos has it right, the market segment is the top of the market NOT BMW 6 series area, here is the market - Ferrari 458 and 599, Bentley CGT, Maser GT's, All Aston-Martins, Lambo Aventador and Gallardo, even ZR-1's and SLS, SL65, and Mclaren. That is substantial market size and very lucrative.

Back in the 80's the 928 cost the same as the 308/328 and outsold it almost 3 to 1. And completely destryoed it performance wise by 20 mph on the top-end not to mention build quality or luxuxry.

Recently I have driven the fastest wheeled vehicle you can buy and yet my 928 still provides equal if not more driving thrills and challenges and has never failed in that area.

A great little video I found 2 days ago that just shows off the beauty of the 928

With growing environmental, driver safety and fuel economy concerns, does sport car development and production makes sense as a business model in the future? Should it be left to niche manufacturers to produce these dinosaurs and leave mass produced cars to the bigger players like VW, BMW, GM, Ford and so on.

Sport cars today really have no place on public roads. They are designed to maximize speed in the unlikeliest places thereby causing unacceptable dangers to the general driving public and to the owner of the vehicle. They are impractical in every imaginable function as a motorized vehicle.

nberry:

Sport cars today really have no place on public roads. They are designed to maximize speed in the unlikeliest places thereby causing unacceptable dangers to the general driving public and to the owner of the vehicle. They are impractical in every imaginable function as a motorized vehicle.

Thats a rather harsh, emotional  "the sky is falling" sort of condemnation.

But if you believe it, you need to back it up with a pro active plan. ... Perhaps preventive detention for owners, arrest and confinement for dealer staffs,confiscation of potentially offensive vehicles and government mandated performance controls on all vehicles to insure public safety.  Of course the very rich, certain celebrities, the politically connected and certain categories of government officials would be immune from all that while the rest could safely potter about in their Obamacars at 7mph.

In the future look for special taxes on sport cars and state of the art monitoring on roadways beyond what it is today. Sport cars in the future will be used by owners at race tracks. The days of mass produced sports cars are numbered.

As serious crime incl. terrorism escalate alarmingly all over the world and financial resources become ever more scarce, my view is that the obsession with traffic policing will gradually diminish, as the limited resources will be directed to more urgent law and order priorities.

Recreational driving and riding is freedom and it cannot be stopped.

"Form follows function"