arakis:
so would someone explain to me how gt3rs found 1.2s on hokenhaim, and 13s on NBR. these are just exaples off the top of my head,
So... how long do we want to hold that debate? There is no other magazine or individual that performs the same cohesive test. Both tracks are open to the public and for trackdays so go ahead and provide us with the correct numbers.
I guess I can find you as many other odd laptime figures that show the exact opposite. As a matter of fact, just compare 997 GT2 / 430 Scuderia and 997 TT / F430. You will figure that all above magazines have been pretty coherent. If you still believe that SportAuto cis on Porsche´s payroll, read their complaints about the first 997 TT.
I know its imposible to expect a porsche fan forum to belive that sport auto is biast, so i wont try, but in the future, while you guys are bashing italian mags for posting faster times on italian cars, you should remember that german mags are just as, if not more, biast. I am kind of getting tired of everybody using sport auto as if its god send, and bashing everything else because it suits their views :D
my view either all mags are biast or all mags are not chose one off these and stick with it
arakis:
I know its imposible to expect a porsche fan forum to belive that sport auto is biast, so i wont try, but in the future, while you guys are bashing italian mags for posting faster times on italian cars, you should remember that german mags are just as, if not more, biast. I am kind of getting tired of everybody using sport auto as if its god send, and bashing everything else because it suits their views :D
my view either all mags are biast or all mags are not chose one off these and stick with it
You forget an important point: many here own/drive/know from intense personal experience many high-performance sports car brands. Many pepole here know exactly what the pros and cons of various high-performance cars are. These people (most of them) also believe that the Supertest is the best magazine benchmark available in the world
arakis:
[...] everybody using sport auto as if its god send [...]
Show me any other magazine that does such extensive test in each month´s edition, incl. wet track performance, highspeed braking or drag and downforce being measured in a windtunnel... than we can talk! Other than that, there are, as you said above, so many variables on a car´s performance that I would never dogmatically limit my opinion on one test alone. As an indication of a car´s capability, the SA test is very good though. If you would read the complete article you would realize how much praise v. Saurma has for certain brands, especially Ferrari.
Take a look at the favourite cars of Nürburgring regulars and you will realize that their preference is clear, even if they don´t read SA.
You forget an important point: many here own/drive/know from intense personal experience many high-performance sports car brands. Many pepole here know exactly what the pros and cons of various high-performance cars are. These people (most of them) also believe that the Supertest is the best magazine benchmark available in the world
maybe because "most of them" are... germans?
zaf52:
You forget an important point: many here own/drive/know from intense personal experience many high-performance sports car brands. Many pepole here know exactly what the pros and cons of various high-performance cars are. These people (most of them) also believe that the Supertest is the best magazine benchmark available in the world
maybe because "most of them" are... germans?
That is BS per se: there are many more German sports cars other than Porsche: Lamborghini, for example, Audi R8/R10, Bugatti, AMG SLS, etc. etc. Seems your argument is a bit weak
Second point: we have no statistics about the members posting here. I guess you did one properly - because I very much doubt that the German sports car owners represent a majority here. Please post your calculations/statistics to validate your claim
Ferdie:
arakis:
so would someone explain to me how gt3rs found 1.2s on hokenhaim, and 13s on NBR. these are just exaples off the top of my head,
So... how long do we want to hold that debate? There is no other magazine or individual that performs the same cohesive test. Both tracks are open to the public and for trackdays so go ahead and provide us with the correct numbers.
I guess I can find you as many other odd laptime figures that show the exact opposite. As a matter of fact, just compare 997 GT2 / 430 Scuderia and 997 TT / F430. You will figure that all above magazines have been pretty coherent. If you still believe that SportAuto cis on Porsche´s payroll, read their complaints about the first 997 TT.
a good approximation to the "correct" numbers you get by taking the (weighted) average of the non sportauto lap times for the cars in question. gt2/scuderia: excluding wet lap times and sportauto lap times we have: 5 comparable times- 3 of them go to the scuderia and two of them to gt2: the latter ones are of the italian auto magazine in balocco, which uses moccia (a porsche race driver) as pilot, tested the scuderia with >30 degrees air temperatures and auto magazine had to perform a several-cars makeup test few months after (in which the scuderia has been faster than carrera gt-the track record holder) to rectify.
the second track in which gt2 has been faster than scuderia is top gear's: the videos are on youtube and anybody interested is welcome to check stig's scuderia still start, time it and compare with any (e.g. auto motor und sport) scuderia's acceleration figures...
all in all, non sportauto lap times imply that scuderia is, on average, a bit quicker than gt2; certainly do not imply that gt2 is faster than scuderia.
sportauto nring times: gt2 8 seconds faster than scuderia, sportauto hock times: gt2 0.6 sec faster.
even worse it gets with gt2 vs lp560: more or less on par in non sportauto lap times (12 of them!),
sportauto nring times: gt2 21 seconds faster than lp560, sportauto hock times: gt2 1.6 sec faster.
do these numbers suggest anything to anybody in this forum?
MKSGR:
zaf52:
You forget an important point: many here own/drive/know from intense personal experience many high-performance sports car brands. Many pepole here know exactly what the pros and cons of various high-performance cars are. These people (most of them) also believe that the Supertest is the best magazine benchmark available in the world
maybe because "most of them" are... germans?
That is BS per se: there are many more German sports cars other than Porsche: Lamborghini, for example, Audi R8/R10, Bugatti, AMG SLS, etc. etc. Seems your argument is a bit weak
Second point: we have no statistics about the members posting here. I guess you did one properly - because I very much doubt that the German sports car owners represent a majority here. Please post your calculations/statistics to validate your claim
claiming Lamborghini is german is a bit optimistic, i would say. claiming Bugatti owners are of any statistical significance among those writing in this forum AND claiming that sportauto is the benchmark of the magazines is.... even more optimistic, to say the least .
second point: it was you who considered those writing in this forum a statistically relevant pool to establish whether sportauto is considered a benchmark or not. this of course, in particular, implies that fellows here represent a randomized enough sample of countries in the world. please post your figures supporting this claim .
Strictly speaking, i am not debating whether sportauto is widely considered as a reliable magazine or not. it might very well be, indeed. this would only show how ignorant most of car enthusiats are, since this question is just marginally sujective....
MKSGR:
arakis:
I know its imposible to expect a porsche fan forum to belive that sport auto is biast, so i wont try, but in the future, while you guys are bashing italian mags for posting faster times on italian cars, you should remember that german mags are just as, if not more, biast. I am kind of getting tired of everybody using sport auto as if its god send, and bashing everything else because it suits their views :D
my view either all mags are biast or all mags are not chose one off these and stick with it
You forget an important point: many here own/drive/know from intense personal experience many high-performance sports car brands. Many pepole here know exactly what the pros and cons of various high-performance cars are. These people (most of them) also believe that the Supertest is the best magazine benchmark available in the world
these people are not profesionall raceing drivers, and touch nowere near the limits of the cars, i don't mean to insult anyone. and most of them are porsche owners, I said most not all! this is rennteam after all and it is a fist and formost a porsche forum, even though i like the ferrari comunity here as well, i miss nick on ou side though
I did not want to comment debate above... BUT...
Arakis, I know personally few members here from Germany that you are talking about-they own Ferraris and they love them. BUT, they are pretty objective in their subjectivity if you understand me. Your assumptions are totally wrong, sorry.
Do you know what is HvS favourite sportscar that he tested in Supertests in last five years? You do not know? 430 Scud...
Do you know why is Nick more objective lately? His wife drives 997.2 Turbo PDK Cabrio and Nick drives it occasionally. He now has full prespective about recent Ferrari and Porsche models.
Here on rennteam most members that I know are true sportscar enthusiasts(and most of them wrote here they personal experiance about these sportscars). NOT brand biased fanatics.
What if I told you that McLaren MP4-12C will be better and faster overall sportscar then 458 Italia? What you will call me then? Maybe a British fanatic? Come on! Be little bit more objective.
zaf52:
Ferdie:
arakis:
so would someone explain to me how gt3rs found 1.2s on hokenhaim, and 13s on NBR. these are just exaples off the top of my head,
So... how long do we want to hold that debate? There is no other magazine or individual that performs the same cohesive test. Both tracks are open to the public and for trackdays so go ahead and provide us with the correct numbers.
I guess I can find you as many other odd laptime figures that show the exact opposite. As a matter of fact, just compare 997 GT2 / 430 Scuderia and 997 TT / F430. You will figure that all above magazines have been pretty coherent. If you still believe that SportAuto cis on Porsche´s payroll, read their complaints about the first 997 TT.
a good approximation to the "correct" numbers you get by taking the (weighted) average of the non sportauto lap times for the cars in question. gt2/scuderia: excluding wet lap times and sportauto lap times we have: 5 comparable times- 3 of them go to the scuderia and two of them to gt2: the latter ones are of the italian auto magazine in balocco, which uses moccia (a porsche race driver) as pilot, tested the scuderia with >30 degrees air temperatures and auto magazine had to perform a several-cars makeup test few months after (in which the scuderia has been faster than carrera gt-the track record holder) to rectify.
the second track in which gt2 has been faster than scuderia is top gear's: the videos are on youtube and anybody interested is welcome to check stig's scuderia still start, time it and compare with any (e.g. auto motor und sport) scuderia's acceleration figures...
all in all, non sportauto lap times imply that scuderia is, on average, a bit quicker than gt2; certainly do not imply that gt2 is faster than scuderia.
sportauto nring times: gt2 8 seconds faster than scuderia, sportauto hock times: gt2 0.6 sec faster.
even worse it gets with gt2 vs lp560: more or less on par in non sportauto lap times (12 of them!),
sportauto nring times: gt2 21 seconds faster than lp560, sportauto hock times: gt2 1.6 sec faster.
do these numbers suggest anything to anybody in this forum?
I agree that the relative performance of GT2 Mk1 and Scuderia depends on the track (for example Scuderia is faster on Porsche's Leipzig track, GT2 is faster on HHR and NBR etc,). However, you make a serious mistake in implying that Sportauto is biased or something. These are two different things: which car is faster on which track - is Sportauto biased
zaf52:
second point: it was you who considered those writing in this forum a statistically relevant pool to establish whether sportauto is considered a benchmark or not. this of course, in particular, implies that fellows here represent a randomized enough sample of countries in the world. please post your figures supporting this claim .
No, not quite: my point is that some people here have such a broad experience that they can much better than 99% of normal car fans tell you key facts about reality You can benefit a lot by just reading the opionion of those people carefully. These opinions carry more information than most "magazine tests"
zaf52:
claiming Lamborghini is german is a bit optimistic, i would say. claiming Bugatti owners are of any statistical significance among those writing in this forum AND claiming that sportauto is the benchmark of the magazines is.... even more optimistic, to say the least .
While I don't share a single percent of what you write I would encourage you to continue writing anyhow... At least you bring some traffic to this thread
KresoF1:
I did not want to comment debate above... BUT...
Arakis, I know personally few members here from Germany that you are talking about-they own Ferraris and they love them. BUT, they are pretty objective in their subjectivity if you understand me. Your assumptions are totally wrong, sorry.
Do you know what is HvS favourite sportscar that he tested in Supertests in last five years? You do not know? 430 Scud...
Do you know why is Nick more objective lately? His wife drives 997.2 Turbo PDK Cabrio and Nick drives it occasionally. He now has full prespective about recent Ferrari and Porsche models.
Here on rennteam most members that I know are true sportscar enthusiasts(and most of them wrote here they personal experiance about these sportscars). NOT brand biased fanatics.
What if I told you that McLaren MP4-12C will be better and faster overall sportscar then 458 Italia? What you will call me then? Maybe a British fanatic? Come on! Be little bit more objective.
Kreso, that is a perfect summary
yourself included,
back on topic, I am sure the results will be fast, but I am also sure, the hokenhaim, and NBR times will be by far the worst compared to some porsche. btw, I belive nberry posted here that it was a good thing HvS posts near porsche factory numbers on the ring, and its normal, that on all other cars he goes 5-15sec slower then their perspective factory drivers? somehow this by itself is enough to prove that he pushec the porikes just a tad bit harder, but then again thats just my opinin, even if it is folowed by facts.
like i said, if the car beats the gt2 997.1 on every other mag, and in this one it is slower, my prevus point stands, but to find that out will have to wait for all the raceing mags/shows to test it.
as far as "very,very good" results, if the thing is as fast as, or faster then the scud, i am then verry impresed with the future of ferrari cars!
KresoF1:
OK. Seems to me that far too many people do not know how to read between the lines...
Amazing results-faster then CGT and 997.1 GT2...
Very, very good results-as fast as Scud or better...
The CGT and 997.1GT2 were 7.32 and 7.33. The Scud was 7.38.
If I am reading this right then the 458 is below 7.32. If true, then the Ferrari support did a marvelous job in setting up the car for the Ring or Ferrari in five years has improved the car substantially from the 430 which I believe did not break 7.50 at the Ring.
actually i would have expected the italia to beat the gt2.1 no less.
comparing how old the 997 paltform is to the new 458 just affirms porsche's superiority imo.
while dct may not offer significant gains on the nbr, the 40 horses more the 458 has should hve helped.
then again, what tires were on the 458 for the test ?
nevertheless...kudos to porsche.
gt2rs will hve the competition for brekfast.
reginos:
Soon this discussion will be of little relevance, if the GT2 RS laps the NBR below 7.20, as rumoured.
Do you regard the GT2 RS as a 458 competitor? I see it as a GTO competitor. Also, let's wait for tests in other tracks by non german and italian magazines.
--
FERRARI RULES!!!