Crown

fritz, interestingly I find the same problem when driving my M3 sedan after driving my 997.  

The brakes are definitely softer on the bmw and the feel is a bit awkward until you get used to it.

I personally prefer the porsche braking feel. 

WAY:
Is it a case of nothing much can be done to a car weighing this much? 

Thanks for the input. 

Probably not so much a weight problem as the fact that the center of gravity of the car is so high. I'm not an expert, but would have thought that if the pitch is a particular problem in this model compared with other comparable 4x4 cars it could be made more tolerable by optimizing the anti-dive geometry.

Maybe the designers' hands were tied though because their platform-sharing concept condemned them to using parts from some other (lower) model which resulted in a sub-optimal suspension geometry ?  

fritz

550 Spyder:

fritz, interestingly I find the same problem when driving my M3 sedan after driving my 997.  

The brakes are definitely softer on the bmw and the feel is a bit awkward until you get used to it.

I personally prefer the porsche braking feel. 

Thanks for the re-assurance. I thought it couldn't just be me. 

The similarity of brake pedal feel among Porsche models is pretty consistent, and the difference between Porsches and other brands appears to me to be pretty consistent.

I also prefer the good modulation of Porsche brakes by far, but guess that the relative lack of response to light pedal pressures on Porsches can also be initially disconcerting for people who drive the brand for the first time. 

fritz

WAY:
Fritz, RC I'd definitely talking about brake dive because it's very prominent and very annoying. RC, I had exactly the same complaint when I first got the car. Still hate it, but you learn to drive accordingly. Is it a case of nothing much can be done to a car weighing this much? As for the exhaust note, GOlf GTI is what I said it sounded like on my initially test drive, so 4 cylinder turbo is exactly what it is. Wished it sounded better, but it will start sounding better as you put more kilometres on the car.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (April 9th, 2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

fritz:

550 Spyder:

fritz, interestingly I find the same problem when driving my M3 sedan after driving my 997.  

The brakes are definitely softer on the bmw and the feel is a bit awkward until you get used to it.

I personally prefer the porsche braking feel. 

Thanks for the re-assurance. I thought it couldn't just be me. 

The similarity of brake pedal feel among Porsche models is pretty consistent, and the difference between Porsches and other brands appears to me to be pretty consistent.

I also prefer the good modulation of Porsche brakes by far, but guess that the relative lack of response to light pedal pressures on Porsches can also be initially disconcerting for people who drive the brand for the first time. 

Funny, my wife drove my car a couple of times and complained about the brakes saying that the car "didn't brake". I told her she was crazy because I think that it brakes just fine but maybe she was on to something

Slow In, Fast Out

With the car riding quite high, maybe a 2in lowering kit from H&R will help the lessen the 'dive'.

I doubt that the ride height is the problem, it is also weird that I didn't experience this behavior on the X6 35d loaner I had.

My theory: the chassis is very sporty and maybe even too firm but the spring rate is too "soft". I can't explain it too well in English but I think that BMW had to make some compromises and making the spring rate more firm would have had a serious impact on ride comfort.

This is why I actually prefer air suspension systems like the one on the Cayenne.

Another small issue with the brakes: the brake feel is a bit too soft too, I would have preferred a more firm and linear brake feel. 
 

I suppose BMW M GmbH doesn't have enough experience with sporty SUVs yet, this could be an excuse but on the other hand they have the X3, the X5 and the X6 non-M models and they definitely should have learned from them. Weird.

I guess the old saying "you get what you pay for" is still valid. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (April 9th, 2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

fritz:

My theory is that Porsche cars have "harder" brake friction material than most cars do, and that Porsche has specced such materials because they resist fading better than softer pads and also allow better brake modulation during spirited driving than softer "sudden death" friction materials. The harder pads require more pedal pressure to achieve the same braking effect, but this means that the driver has more control over the braking effect by varying the pedal force over a larger range. [...]

My guess is most car manufacturers go for the softer materials for their better anti-squeal properties, as well as because they know that many drivers would otherwise be "Incapable" of doing a real emergency stop even in a real emergency situation. Many drivers seem to have a mental block against really putting the middle pedal to the metal when necessary.

Come to think of it, you have a point there. The more delicate braker response might further enhance the impression of brake dive.

Ferdie:

fritz:

My theory is that Porsche cars have "harder" brake friction material than most cars do, and that Porsche has specced such materials because they resist fading better than softer pads and also allow better brake modulation during spirited driving than softer "sudden death" friction materials. The harder pads require more pedal pressure to achieve the same braking effect, but this means that the driver has more control over the braking effect by varying the pedal force over a larger range. [...]

My guess is most car manufacturers go for the softer materials for their better anti-squeal properties, as well as because they know that many drivers would otherwise be "Incapable" of doing a real emergency stop even in a real emergency situation. Many drivers seem to have a mental block against really putting the middle pedal to the metal when necessary.

Come to think of it, you have a point there. The more delicate braker response might further enhance the impression of brake dive.

Yes, this is true too. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (April 9th, 2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

Unfortunately I already found something annoying: the brake dive when braking, it is too strong in my opinion. It feels better when I brake less harsh and more "linear" but it is still there and it is annoying. Any X5M/X6M driver with the same experience ?

The worst thing is actually that the brake dive happens and then the chassis returns back to it's regular position, giving you the opposite effect of a dive immediately after the brake dive.

So your body moves slightly forward and then back in the opposite direction but it is a strong feel, not the normal feeling you get when you brake and come to a stop.

It is difficult for me to explain but it is definitely very annoying.

Fuel consumption: I really drive very very slow, I almost never rev above 4000 rpm and I press the throttle halfway through, not more but I always drive in "M" mode. The fuel consumption so far is exactly 20 l / 100 km. I know the car is new but I start to wonder how some people got 16 l and less.

The HiFi High End Individual System is OK but not what I expected from this kind of price tag. The Burmester system on the Panamera is definitely better sound-wise.

Finally, the exhaust sound is LOUD (not so much in the interior but my wife and some friends told me that it is definitely very loud from the outside of the car) but not even close to what I would want to hear on a SUV. Maybe it is me but it sounds like tuned up 4-cylinder Turbo engine and in fact, the 6-cyl Turbo Diesel I drove in the X6 35d sounded not much different, even if less loud. My point is: dammit, BMW M department, give the X5/X6M a more decent and sporty sound. This cannot be it.

Don't get me wrong, guys...these are actually the only complaints so far, the car drives great and I love the drive feel.

More in a detailled driving report soon.

 

It's not too late to trade it for a new cayenne turbo

--

RC:

I doubt that the ride height is the problem, it is also weird that I didn't experience this behavior on the X6 35d loaner I had.

My theory: the chassis is very sporty and maybe even too firm but the spring rate is too "soft". I can't explain it too well in English but I think that BMW had to make some compromises and making the spring rate more firm would have had a serious impact on ride comfort.

This is why I actually prefer air suspension systems like the one on the Cayenne.

Another small issue with the brakes: the brake feel is a bit too soft too, I would have preferred a more firm and linear brake feel. 
 

I suppose BMW M GmbH doesn't have enough experience with sporty SUVs yet, this could be an excuse but on the other hand they have the X3, the X5 and the X6 non-M models and they definitely should have learned from them. Weird.

I guess the old saying "you get what you pay for" is still valid. 

Seems like you are the first one to complaint about it.

My theory is Piech had someone sabotaged your car, make you feel the BMW is inferior to the Cayenne Turbo.

RC:

 

I suppose BMW M GmbH doesn't have enough experience with sporty SUVs yet, this could be an excuse but on the other hand they have the X3, the X5 and the X6 non-M models and they definitely should have learned from them. Weird.

I guess the old saying "you get what you pay for" is still valid. 

Christian, my experiences with my X5M that I'm going since December 2009:
I’ve never noticed an abnormal brake dive not even compared to the Cayenne, I've drove 2 months in parallel.

Of course, the Porsche brakes require more pedal force than for ex. a BMW, but the effect is comparable likewise. Furthermore I've  got some friends who already own a X5M and they all doesn’t complain about brake diving either.
Even in the supertest in the german Sportauto no criticism was heard about brake dive.

Maybe this hints will help:
Check out braking behavior with EDC on. The suspension will be stiffer over all than.
It could also be a necessary process of adaption on your part.  After a few weeks you maybe will feel that for normal.
Of course finally a technical defect can’t be excluded.

I don’t think seriously that this depends of the price you paid.
The overall quality is very well, imho.  The X5M was thoroughly developed from the M-GmbH particularly the chassis and the engine. 
I  think after 4 weeks of further experience your judgement will be much better.

Btw.:
The fuel consumption with 20 litres/100 kph is rather normal for the first 2.000 km.
My average consumption on the last 5.000 km amounts „only“ 18,4 litres.

I didn't say that the overall quality of the X5 M is worse compared to other cars, it is just about refinement and development. EDC is always on, so is MDM. There is no change, I tried all settings today. There is also no technical defect, I was at my dealer and they checked everything. I really think that you got used to it but it is really difficult to get used to it. Even the Mercedes GLK I drove in the States didn't show this weird behavior.

The changing parameters of the steering are also annoying, I can directly feel how it changes steering resistance/stiffness in fast curves, this is not good for someone like me who prefers to adapt by himself. not be adapted.

Don't get me wrong: I'm not thinking for a second to return the car or to make a scene at my dealer but I'm a little bit disappointed, thats all.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (April 9th, 2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Whoopsy:

Seems like you are the first one to complaint about it.

This is what WAY wrote earlier:

Fritz, RC I'd definitely talking about brake dive because it's very prominent and very annoying. RC, I had exactly the same complaint when I first got the car. Still hate it, but you learn to drive accordingly. Is it a case of nothing much can be done to a car weighing this much? As for the exhaust note, GOlf GTI is what I said it sounded like on my initially test drive, so 4 cylinder turbo is exactly what it is. Wished it sounded better, but it will start sounding better as you put more kilometres on the car.

I may be the first to complaint about it but I'm surely not the first to experience it.

Maybe people aren't paying enough attention on their "truck"?  Or they don't have a direct comparison with other high performance SUVs.

There are a couple of little things which are annoyances but they could have been avoided if development would have paid more attention. I don't want to speculate but I have the suspicion that BMW M GmbH badly wanted a "M" SUV, so the rushed things a little bit. Honestly, I would prefer an even firmer/stiffer and less comfortable ride if BMW can get rid of that brake dive. The Servotronic steering is annoying too.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (April 9th, 2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

RC:

 I really think that you got used to it but it is really difficult to get used to it. Even the Mercedes GLK I drove in the States didn't show this weird behavior.

..hmm, I'can't help me, something must be wrong with it.
 

Check out an other X5M and compare it with yours. Maybe thats might be helpful to get the point.



 

RC:

Whoopsy:

Seems like you are the first one to complaint about it.

 

This is what WAY wrote earlier:

Fritz, RC I'd definitely talking about brake dive because it's very prominent and very annoying. RC, I had exactly the same complaint when I first got the car. Still hate it, but you learn to drive accordingly. Is it a case of nothing much can be done to a car weighing this much? As for the exhaust note, GOlf GTI is what I said it sounded like on my initially test drive, so 4 cylinder turbo is exactly what it is. Wished it sounded better, but it will start sounding better as you put more kilometres on the car.

I may be the first to complaint about it but I'm surely not the first to experience it.

Maybe people aren't paying enough attention on their "truck"?  Or they don't have a direct comparison with other high performance SUVs.

There are a couple of little things which are annoyances but they could have been avoided if development would have paid more attention. I don't want to speculate but I have the suspicion that BMW M GmbH badly wanted a "M" SUV, so the rushed things a little bit. Honestly, I would prefer an even firmer/stiffer and less comfortable ride if BMW can get rid of that brake dive. The Servotronic steering is annoying too.

Christian, what about the X6M test car you had? Did it exhibit the same traits?

Crash:

RC:

Whoopsy:

Seems like you are the first one to complaint about it.

 

This is what WAY wrote earlier:

Fritz, RC I'd definitely talking about brake dive because it's very prominent and very annoying. RC, I had exactly the same complaint when I first got the car. Still hate it, but you learn to drive accordingly. Is it a case of nothing much can be done to a car weighing this much? As for the exhaust note, GOlf GTI is what I said it sounded like on my initially test drive, so 4 cylinder turbo is exactly what it is. Wished it sounded better, but it will start sounding better as you put more kilometres on the car.

I may be the first to complaint about it but I'm surely not the first to experience it.

Maybe people aren't paying enough attention on their "truck"?  Or they don't have a direct comparison with other high performance SUVs.

There are a couple of little things which are annoyances but they could have been avoided if development would have paid more attention. I don't want to speculate but I have the suspicion that BMW M GmbH badly wanted a "M" SUV, so the rushed things a little bit. Honestly, I would prefer an even firmer/stiffer and less comfortable ride if BMW can get rid of that brake dive. The Servotronic steering is annoying too.

 

Christian, what about the X6M test car you had? Did it exhibit the same traits?

 I was about to ask the same thing

Told ya, Piech 'modified' your car, next thing you know, the BMW is going to 'break down' right in front of the Porsche dealership, facing a new Cayenne Turbo.

Whoopsy:

Told ya, Piech 'modified' your car, next thing you know, the BMW is going to 'break down' right in front of the Porsche dealership, facing a new Cayenne Turbo.

Don't laugh, that's kind of what happened to Nick and he ended up buying the TT.

Slow In, Fast Out

Whoopsy:

Told ya, Piech 'modified' your car, next thing you know, the BMW is going to 'break down' right in front of the Porsche dealership, facing a new Cayenne Turbo.

You guys are nasty.....

2003 Cayenne Turbo

Crash:

Christian, what about the X6M test car you had? Did it exhibit the same traits?

Honestly speaking...I don't know. I had the X6M only for a 100 km testdrive and I started to be really aware of the problem on my X5 M after a day of driving, not earlier. I also have to admit that I'm actually looking for things out of the ordinary because of my driving report.

There is nothing wrong with my car, dealer confirmed it. It seems to be related to the firm chassis setup and the spring rate. My mechanic even asked me if my Cayenne was different and yes, it was different. 

The soft brake feel is related to the pads, this is something I may be able to change according to BMW but we need to look into the alternatives.

Again: little annoyances, nothing which would make me not to want the car anymore. 

Don't forget that this is my "job" here at Rennteam: to point out possible flaws. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M (April 9th, 2010), BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Congrats Christian on the new car !! and hats off to you to provide a balanced review on the car  enjoy in good health

RC:

The soft brake feel is related to the pads, ............

See, I told you so.   

fritz

The brake dive is real, and it isn't because of the higher initial bite you get on BMWs compared to Porsches.  To illustrate this, (for those of you who own the X5M/X6M), just drive very slowly, then apply the brakes slowly and softly and pay attention to it when it comes to a complete stop.  Even if you car is just crawling, when it comes to a complete stop, the car will rock like a boat.  This is something I have never experienced in any of my cars.  Admittedly I have ever only owned sports cars, sports sedans/coupes, or hot hatches.  The only real exception to the rule is our X3 with the M suspension.  The X3 doesn't have the same brake dive issue and it has suspension tuned by M.  This is why I assumed that the issue relates to the weight of the X5M.

Actually no, my 4.8 X5 does the same thing, it's an issue, 'feature' of the E70 platform.

Whoopsy:

Actually no, my 4.8 X5 does the same thing, it's an issue, 'feature' of the E70 platform.

 Does it happen on the X6 and X6M too? another question what s the numbering for the X6 chassis?

E70 for X5, E71 for X6 and E72 for hybrid X6.

But the X5 and X6 shares the same suspensions, they 'should' react the same way. But then again the X6 is slightly lowered than X5 so it has a slightly lowered center of gravity.

Actually I was very suprised to hear from a guy from M GmbH that the X5 M is actually completely based on the X6 M and does not have the X5 as a basis. This is the reason why there is no 7-seat option on the X5 M. So the X5 M is practically a X6 M with X5 body, as weird as this may sound. Everything else is absolutely identical.

As to the "brake dive", I don't know if the X6 M shows it too but I would say yes, since it is the same car.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

Whoopsy:

E70 for X5, E71 for X6 and E72 for hybrid X6.

But the X5 and X6 shares the same suspensions, they 'should' react the same way. But then again the X6 is slightly lowered than X5 so it has a slightly lowered center of gravity.

 Thanks for the answer