Crown

Board: Lamborghini Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Lamborghini/Audi/whoever have been working with Boeing I believe and has a CF R&D facility.

    As for Ferrari not jumping on the bandwagon due to longevity concerns... pfft. They say that because they just don't have it ready yet for mass production and the 458 was probably too far into development to go the CF route.

    Also, Ferrari has no problem selling Enzo's with CF tubs. I highly doubt it's a liability. Lamborghini isn't going to be selling cars that aren't certified safe... no way Audi/VW would allow that. Ferrari just isn't there yet. They will be, just not yet. It's all about product timing. Same reason you don't see DCT in some cars that you'd expect. It's just how the development process goes.


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    wedouglas:

    Lamborghini/Audi/whoever have been working with Boeing I believe and has a CF R&D facility.

    As for Ferrari not jumping on the bandwagon due to longevity concerns... pfft. They say that because they just don't have it ready yet for mass production and the 458 was probably too far into development to go the CF route.

    Also, Ferrari has no problem selling Enzo's with CF tubs. I highly doubt it's a liability. Lamborghini isn't going to be selling cars that aren't certified safe... no way Audi/VW would allow that. Ferrari just isn't there yet. They will be, just not yet. It's all about product timing. Same reason you don't see DCT in some cars that you'd expect. It's just how the development process goes.


    Ferrari certainly is there and can easily produce CF cars. It had done so 16 years ago with the F50 and then again 9 years ago with the Enzo, not to mention its F1 knowhow. In my opinion, the only reason they haven't passed to CF in their "normal" models is the higher manufacturing cost.


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    wedouglas:

    Lamborghini/Audi/whoever have been working with Boeing I believe and has a CF R&D facility.

    As for Ferrari not jumping on the bandwagon due to longevity concerns... pfft. They say that because they just don't have it ready yet for mass production and the 458 was probably too far into development to go the CF route.

    Also, Ferrari has no problem selling Enzo's with CF tubs. I highly doubt it's a liability. Lamborghini isn't going to be selling cars that aren't certified safe... no way Audi/VW would allow that. Ferrari just isn't there yet. They will be, just not yet. It's all about product timing. Same reason you don't see DCT in some cars that you'd expect. It's just how the development process goes.

    Agreed. It's like how BMW made excuses that folding hardtop was not the way to go, when the SLK was out. Now, the Z4 is a folding hardtop. 

    Or how the German automakers ditched hybrid when the Prius came out. "Fuel cell and hydrogen cars are the future". Now, all of them are producing hybrids.


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Heist, thanks for the vid on braiding. It is how I thought it was.
    (I always chuckle when they then show non-structural parts of the car made in CFRP; where it makes absolutely no sense at all)

    Anyway, with respect to the fatigue problem, I may be able to shed some light on this.

    Fatigue failure is the phenomenon where a structure fails under a repetitive load that is in itself way lower than the static failure load. The reason that the structure fails is because of the accumulated effects of all the small loads over the lifetime of the structure.

    Typically, the main structure of a car is not designed to withstand fatigue failure, but to keep the passengers safe in case of a collision. Therefore, the car has to be way heavier than it should be if it were only built to withstand normal usage loads. Individual components, like the attachment of a wheel or something like that are designed for fatigue failure though.

    The relatively new development in the automotive world is to build entire chassis out of CFRP, like with the Carrera GT. This is something which is taken from the aerospace world, where CFRP has been applied for a good many years now.

    Howeer, the big difference is that aircraft are specifically designed with fatigue failure in mind. (predominantly since it makes no sense to build an aircraft that can withstand a major crash). In the normal aerospace world, the consensus seems to be that for CFRP parts, fatigue failure plays only a minor role in the failure behavior of the part.

    The aerospace world has introduced carbon fibre parts in steps: first no structural items like fairings and such, then secondary structures like flaps and airbrakes, then primary structures like horizontal stabilizers, and now even full fuselage sections (Boeing 787).

    The difficulty with CFRP though is that damages are often hard to detect, and even harder to repair. The aerospace world solves this by using very strick inspection intervals and exchange of parts after x-amount of flight hours (something which was already common sense with metal parts as well, ever since the renowned crashes of the De-Havilland Comet).

    The main question is: how is the automotive world going to deal with these kind of issues?
    I wouldn't want to buy a 918 spyder, if I knew that every 20000 kilometers, I had to have the chassis exchanged...


    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Joost:

     

    The difficulty with CFRP though is that damages are often hard to detect, and even harder to repair. The aerospace world solves this by using very strick inspection intervals and exchange of parts after x-amount of flight hours (something which was already common sense with metal parts as well, ever since the renowned crashes of the De-Havilland Comet).

    The main question is: how is the automotive world going to deal with these kind of issues?
    I wouldn't want to buy a 918 spyder, if I knew that every 20000 kilometers, I had to have the chassis exchanged...

     Parts for planes will have to be replaced if even there is only very little damage, but not so with cars, isn't it ? 

    Truth is, we will cross that bridge when we get there. Not too long ago people thought it's crazy to sit on top of a storage tank filled with easily flammable fuel connected to a combustion engine. Ten years ago people are still afraid to be electrocuted in a hybrid or an electric car. All these are as commonplace as sliced bread now. 


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Joost:

    [...] aircraft are specifically designed with fatigue failure in mind. (predominantly since it makes no sense to build an aircraft that can withstand a major crash). In the normal aerospace world, the consensus seems to be that for CFRP parts, fatigue failure plays only a minor role in the failure behavior of the part.

    [...] The main question is: how is the automotive world going to deal with these kind of issues?

    I wouldn't want to buy a 918 spyder, if I knew that every 20000 kilometers, I had to have the chassis exchanged...


    Joost,

    thank you for your explanation but I am not sure if I understood above comments. The requirements of CFRP in aviational and automotive appliances are somewhat different as, from my understanding, in the former case most components are designed to show a certain strain under load [e.g. wings] and are designed to withstand forces with those limits of fatigue in mind. Those components have to endure repeated temperature changes that are much higher on the entire structural element. Furthermore, weight seems to be the decisive factor.

    In automotive appliances, as you said, crash safety and its corresponding forces as well as structural ridgidity are the standards to which the chassis are designed. For torsional ridgidity for example, as little deformation as possible is intended. Although legislation gets tougher in automotive industries I still don´t think that it has approached the legal requirements that are mandatory in aviational appliances yet. Still, there have been several studies regarding longevity of CFRP components in aviational appliances and this might be the kind of "cooperation" that Lamborghini sees with Boeing.

    The question of longterm longevity affects other materials as well that are used in automotive applications and have to be tested in timelapse simulations, such as alloys, paints or regular plastic components.


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    shin:
    wedouglas:

    Lamborghini/Audi/whoever have been working with Boeing I believe and has a CF R&D facility.

    As for Ferrari not jumping on the bandwagon due to longevity concerns... pfft. They say that because they just don't have it ready yet for mass production and the 458 was probably too far into development to go the CF route.

    Also, Ferrari has no problem selling Enzo's with CF tubs. I highly doubt it's a liability. Lamborghini isn't going to be selling cars that aren't certified safe... no way Audi/VW would allow that. Ferrari just isn't there yet. They will be, just not yet. It's all about product timing. Same reason you don't see DCT in some cars that you'd expect. It's just how the development process goes.

    Agreed. It's like how BMW made excuses that folding hardtop was not the way to go, when the SLK was out. Now, the Z4 is a folding hardtop. 

    Or how the German automakers ditched hybrid when the Prius came out. "Fuel cell and hydrogen cars are the future". Now, all of them are producing hybrids.

    Agree with you two and Ferdie, in particular with this: "All of those are tested in accelerated weather cycles to test their longterm longevity."

    Same design process in the aerospace industry, they are capable of validating ageing of structural, mechanical or electrical components through adequate stress testing (thermal, vibration, etc.), which take a few days to a few months, to evaluate their behavior and longevity over the 30-year lifespan of an aircraft.

    Ferrari used the same excuse 5 years ago to justify their use of F1 gearbox when the first double clutch transmissions popped up, 5 years later look at the transmissions they use now. Smiley


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    > By Andreas Cremer

    > Feb. 14 (Bloomberg) -- Lamborghini SpA will unveil a flagship

    > supercar costing more than $370,000 called the Aventador, its most

    > powerful series production vehicle ever, at the Geneva Motor Show, a

    > person with direct knowledge of the plans said.

    > The Aventador LP 700-4, which has a 700-horsepower V12 engine

    > that surges to 100 kilometers (62 miles) per hour in 2.9 seconds, will

    > be shown March 1, said the person, who asked not to be identified

    > before the model is shown publicly.

    > The Aventador, which replaces the Volkswagen AG brand's

    > top-of-the-line Murcielago model, is already sold for the first year

    > of production, the person said. Lamborghini, which competes with Fiat

    > SpA's Ferrari, will decide over the next year whether to add a third

    > model to its portfolio to complement the Aventador and Gallardo lines, the person said.

    > "People may be ripping order forms for the new Lamborghini out of

    > salesmen's hands," said Christoph Stuermer, a Frankfurt- based analyst

    > at IHS Automotive. "The timing seems right, it's no longer deemed

    > inappropriate to flaunt your wealth."

    > Lamborghini is counting on the Aventador to help capitalize on a

    > recovering market for luxury autos costing more than $200,000.

    > Supercar sales in the U.S., the top market for the world's most

    > expensive cars, may surge

    > 146 percent this year for vehicles costing from $200,000 to $400,000

    > after plunging 40 percent in 2010, according to IHS.

    > Sant'Agata Bolognese, Italy-based Lamborghini is ramping up

    > production of the Aventador and may expand output to build as many as

    > 100 of the cars by March 1, the person said. The brand is already

    > taking orders and will start selling the new model, which has a top

    > speed of 350 kilometers per hour, in the second quarter in showrooms.

    > Lamborghini spokesman Raffaello Porro declined to comment on the carmaker's Geneva plans.

    >

    > 'Outrageous Supercars'

    >

    > "Lamborghini's reason for being is about making outrageous

    > supercars," said Jim Hall, an analyst at consulting firm 2953

    > Analytics Inc. in Birmingham, Michigan. "Their new flagship will be

    > critically important to underpin that position."

    > Supercar sales are growing amid a renewed sense of optimism among

    > bankers after the U.S. economy, the world's biggest, expanded 2.9

    > percent last year, the most in five years. JPMorgan Chase & Co.'s

    > profits last year were the highest in the bank's history, and

    > Citigroup Inc. returned money to the U.S. Treasury and reported its first full-year profit since 2007.

    > Workers at big Wall Street banks continued to outpace other

    > professions in earnings even as they took modest cuts in pay in 2010.

    > Goldman Sachs Group Inc., Morgan Stanley, and JPMorgan's investment

    > bank spent an average of $330,212 on salaries, bonuses and benefits

    > for each of their 124,556 workers in last year, according to financial

    > reports released since Jan. 14, a decline of 2.7 percent from 2009.

    >

    > Lower Weight Cars

    >

    > Lamborghini, founded in 1963 and acquired by Volkswagen in 1998,

    > aims to produce lower weight cars by increasing the share of

    > components made of carbon fibers as emission standards are tightened in Europe and the U.S.

    > The Aventador will weigh about 1,570 kilograms (3,461 lbs.), a

    > reduction of as much as 95 kilograms compared with predecessor

    > Murcielago LP 640, the person said. The lighter weight reduces fuel

    > consumption and CO2 emissions about 20 percent, the person said.

    > The Aventador will have a safety frame made entirely from carbon

    > fiber, similar to what's used in Formula One race cars.

    > Lamborghini set up a center at its Italian headquarters in July 2010

    > to develop the light composites that complement metals in car frames

    > and in 2009 began a partnership with aircraft maker Boeing Co. to

    > crash-test carbon fiber.

    > "Lamborghini is committed to optimizing the use of light composites,"

    > said Stefan Bratzel, director of the Center of Automotive Management

    > at the University of Applied Sciences in Bergisch-Gladbach, Germany.

    > "Carbon fiber will be key to making high-performance cars in future,

    > the material implies enormous benefits for handling and braking those vehicles."


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Ferdie and others,

    In re-reading my own post, I see that it is a bit unclear. Baseline is: the main structure of a car is so heavily constructed (for crash resistancy purposes and stiffness requirements), that fatigue life is probably not going to be an issue. So why would Ferrari hold that off?

    Ziggy gave as a possible explanation that ferrari just wasn't ready yet, and needed an excuse. Sounds reasonable to me.

    With regard to accellerated testing; yes, this is possible, but it still takes very long. In a project I have been working for, where the aircraft was starting to enter service, we had to give clearance on regular intervals that the aircraft was certified to make x more flight hours...

    All in all, I think we can conclude that this is a very bald step by Lamborghini, and I am really looking forward to all the new knowledge that will spring from research facilities like this. In my opinion, we are yet on the verge of what is possible with tailored materials.


    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    "Supercar sales are growing amid a renewed sense of optimism among bankers after the U.S. economy, the world’s biggest, expanded 2.9 percent last year, the most in five years."

    So, the world-wide economic slump/disaster.... is over?  

    Supercar sales are on the way up?  I don't believe it !  Optimism is one thing; actual car sales are another story !!


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    blade1:

    "Supercar sales are growing amid a renewed sense of optimism among bankers after the U.S. economy, the world’s biggest, expanded 2.9 percent last year, the most in five years."

    So, the world-wide economic slump/disaster.... is over?  

    Supercar sales are on the way up?  I don't believe it !  Optimism is one thing; actual car sales are another story !!

     I believe most of this new demand for supercar comes from China.


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    new video of the LP700-4

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTiTlkJwLyM


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement


    --

    ...the only thing stopping you in all likelihood, is you!


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    I don't really like the sound of this engine. It's missing that high pitched shriek at the higher end, although it does retain the signature overrun snort when downshifting.


    --

    ...the only thing stopping you in all likelihood, is you!


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    uh i love that sound, very nice and mean. It's shaping up quite nicely. The exterior styling will be critical.


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

     Interior looks like upgraded Gallardo.


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Atzporsche:

    uh i love that sound, very nice and mean. It's shaping up quite nicely. The exterior styling will be critical.

    Nah, no way. The Murci sounded better. It's the same thing with the Gallardo, the 1st Gen sounds better than the 560-4 engine

     


    --

    ...the only thing stopping you in all likelihood, is you!


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Great video, thanks for sharing.

    I'm not very positive about the sound as well.


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Well, that murci in that video has the Tubi muffler bypass, same setup as in our car.   Sounds sensational.


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

     estoque inspired steering wheel

     

     


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

     BTW is the estoque ever going to make it into production?

     


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Enmanuel:

     BTW is the estoque ever going to make it into production?

     

     

    Yes. It was greenlighted. It will be a shared platform car with a yet to be announced Audi.


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Heist:
    Enmanuel:

     BTW is the estoque ever going to make it into production?

    Yes. It was greenlighted. It will be a shared platform car with a yet to be announced Audi.

     Great! i don't know why but I have a good feeling about that car Smiley

    Oh and Heist i like your new avatar, very nice Smiley


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Lamborghini unveils LP700-4 Aventador V12 rolling chassis

     

    http://www.worldcarfans.com/111022230802/lamborghini-unveils-lp700-4-aventador-v12-rolling-chassis

    According to my source new Lambo will be the best sportscar. Only area where McLaren MP4-12C is better is gearbox technology. Trust me on this-in all other areas new Lambo is at least one generation above McLaren MP4-12C. This is extremly good sign for new Gallardo since it will use very sporty DCT!


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Enmanuel:

     Great! i don't know why but I have a good feeling about that car Smiley

    Oh and Heist i like your new avatar, very nice Smiley

    Thanks.

    I figured it was time to retire the  Banksy avatar.


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

     

     

     


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    KresoF1:

    Lamborghini unveils LP700-4 Aventador V12 rolling chassis

     

    http://www.worldcarfans.com/111022230802/lamborghini-unveils-lp700-4-aventador-v12-rolling-chassis

    According to my source new Lambo will be the best sportscar. Only area where McLaren MP4-12C is better is gearbox technology. Trust me on this-in all other areas new Lambo is at least one generation above McLaren MP4-12C. This is extremly good sign for new Gallardo since it will use very sporty DCT!

     Thanks for the insight Kreso ! That means Lambo is two class above Ferrari/Porsche.. man, am I gonna get flamed for this LOL


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    KresoF1:

    Lamborghini unveils LP700-4 Aventador V12 rolling chassis

     

    http://www.worldcarfans.com/111022230802/lamborghini-unveils-lp700-4-aventador-v12-rolling-chassis

    According to my source new Lambo will be the best sportscar. Only area where McLaren MP4-12C is better is gearbox technology. Trust me on this-in all other areas new Lambo is at least one generation above McLaren MP4-12C. This is extremly good sign for new Gallardo since it will use very sporty DCT!

     

     

    But the LP700 is not really a 458 class supercar, more like a Hyura hypercar competitor.


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    Real pic leaked...

    Full story here http://www.worldcarfans.com/111022230803/breaking-lamborghini-aventador-lp700-4-image-leaked

    BTW, Croatian version of EVO magazine is responsible for the leak...


    Re: Murcielago successor/replacement

    ^^^I am underwhelmed.

     


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 4/17/24 7:16 AM
    GnilM
    777630 1798
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 4/7/24 11:48 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    441864 565
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 5/12/23 12:11 PM
    W8MM
    262850 288
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 3/12/24 8:28 AM
    DJM48
    261061 323
    Porsche Sticky The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche 1/30/24 9:18 AM
    RCA
    85327 45
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift 3/15/24 1:23 PM
    CGX car nut
    5617 50
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 2/1/24 7:01 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    880727 1364
    Porsche 992 GT3 7/23/23 7:01 PM
    Grant
    816164 3868
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 2/10/24 4:43 PM
    nberry
    391015 1526
    Porsche GT4RS 4/21/24 11:50 AM
    mcdelaug
    390138 1454
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/13/23 2:48 PM
    CGX car nut
    372314 2401
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/3/23 12:30 PM
    Porker
    368988 797
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 4/11/24 12:32 PM
    Ferdie
    289233 668
    Porsche Collected my 997 GTS today 10/19/23 7:06 PM
    CGX car nut
     
     
     
     
     
    261362 812
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/30/23 6:59 PM
    mcdelaug
    240231 346
    Lotus Lotus Emira 6/25/23 2:53 PM
    Enmanuel
    230538 101
    Others Corvette C8 10/16/23 3:24 PM
    Enmanuel
    221229 488
    Others Gordon Murray - T.50 11/22/23 10:27 AM
    mcdelaug
    169332 387
    Porsche Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS 6/11/23 5:13 PM
    CGX car nut
    141107 144
    BMW M 2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now 12/29/23 9:04 AM
    RCA
    117584 303
    Motor Sp. 2023 Formula One 12/19/23 5:38 AM
    WhoopsyM
    108659 685
    Porsche 2022 992 Safari Model 3/7/24 4:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    84209 239
    AMG Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758 2/23/24 10:03 PM
    blueflame
    75107 297
    Porsche 992 GT3 RS 3/3/24 7:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    53682 314
    Motor Sp. Porsche 963 3/16/24 9:27 PM
    WhoopsyM
    25092 237
    Ferrari Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6) 1/21/24 4:29 PM
    GT-Boy
    21173 103
    BMW M 2022 BMW M5 CS 4/8/24 1:43 PM
    Ferdie
    19501 140
    AMG G63 sold out 9/15/23 7:38 PM
    Nico997
    16591 120
    AMG [2022] Mercedes-AMG SL 4/23/24 1:24 PM
    RCA
    13738 225
    Motor Sp. 24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018 5/25/23 10:42 PM
    Grant
    11252 55
    126 items found, displaying 1 to 30.