Crown

Well, after initial interest at Ferrari board here we go... DCT... State-of-the-art gearboxes.... Best men/machine interface etc. That is description that we often see latest when someone starts a conversation about DCT. Just... Is it really a true

Hmm...

After initial positive impression with DCTs(S Tronic, M-DKG, PDK etc) I do NOT think they are ready for prime time yet! Personal opinion or objective view? Both!

WHY

This thread should provide at least more answers and some view from both sides(DCT currect sceptics and DCT fans).

Let's start...

From other forum-about BMW DKG(DCT):

"This story was on the news last night.The guy buys a brand new 335 DCT conv & from day 1 he is plagued with electrical & mechanical problems.The roof won’t open & every time it rains water comes into the car via the rear section of the roof.On the rare occasion that the roof does open,it won’t close.His brand new car has broken down on several occasions & left him stranded.2 make matters worse,the dealership won’t repair the car.
Even thought the floor mats r purchased from the dealership,I do agree that the accident has nothing 2 do w/ the dealership & this is just a money grab.

I was given a manual 335 as a loaner 4 my Lemmon M3 & it never broke down,it was faultless.However,the M DCT gearbox in the M3 & the DCT gearbox in the 3 series is a world renowned disaster.

As 4 my experience...Where shall I begin?

When I picked up my M3 she was covered in orange peel. Dealer repaired this.

I had 2 leave the stereo on at all times 2 muffle the squeaks & rattles emanating from the interior,specifically the dash.Dealer could not repair this regardless of how many times I took it back.

Now we come 2 M DCT. Provided the car would actually start in the mornings,I had to deal w/ the following:

In Auto mode it would refuse 2 change gears.It would jump from auto mode 2 manual mode & back 2 auto mode (on its own) than the engine would shut down.(In the middle of traffic) The gear box was always confused as 2 which gear it should select, especially in lower rpm’s

In manual mode,pull the paddle back once 2 go up a gear & the car refuses 2 go up a gear.Not the sort of thing u want 2 happen when u r merging in2 traffic.Then there r times when u pull the paddle back 2 drop 1 gear & the car drops several gears then the engine shuts down & won’t start again.

The clunking noises emanating from the M DCT box itself were frightening.The 1st time I heard it I thought something broke.

Go through the never ending process 2 activate LC, take my foot of the break & the car won’t go anywhere.It just sits there revving or the engine will just shut down.
In the Cayman S all u r required 2 do is slam ur foot on the break, press 1 button,floor the accelerator,take ur foot of the break & she’ll do a 7,000rpm launch that will reach 100km in 4.5 sec. Yeah that’s right,I said 4.5sec.There r the occasional clunking noises from the PDK gearbox when taking off from a standstill but PDK is nowhere near as bad as M DCT.

I took my M3 back 2 the dealership on several occasions & every time the mechanic told me he couldn’t find a problem.I would go 2 the dealership,drive the car with the imbecile seated next to me & much to his suprise,I could re enact the problem w/ very little effort or time.

My mate is the sales manager of the BMW dealership,his father is the owner & they both told me (of the record) that a problem exists w/ MDCT & BMW r trying 2 find a solution.Software upgrades were released 2 rectify the problems associated w/ M DCT but they didn’t help.At the end,the dealership bought the car back of me & I will never by a BMW again. "

Remark: far too many M3s with M-DKG experienced mechanical failure on its gearboxes. Only on my small market two M3s ended with M-DKG replaced. I am not talking about software problems(known thing for BMW DKG and M-DKG) but, mechanical issues(M-DKG overheating after one hour of track drive for example).

My response to post by guy above:

"

In MY opinion not yet. Let's open discussion here!

 i agree, i think they still need some work and further development. i drove the M3 with DCT and found it to be sort of forced in traffic, like the response is nowhere near accurate. I have also driven the Leon FR that has the VW DSG and i have to admit its not as bad as the bmw, specially in slow traffic its very comfortable.

I had no real problems with mine after 12'000 km . The only thing is sometimes , when arriving on a stop sign, engine cold, it takes suddenly about 1 second to find the right gear to star ( but this is very rare) and it has, in very cold conditions, twice stayed on nutral and I had to stop/start the car again.

But overall this gear box is more for  a GT then a true sports car.  It is very practicall but is boring on the track.

The S-tronic on my TTS has caused no problem after 7000 km (knock on the wood). Maybe just once; it stucked in 1st gear so I had to stop and started the engine again.

However, I rather prefer SMGII style gearbox over Double clutches. Electrohydralic semi auto gearboxes have more manual feel than Double clutches.

ONUR

09 Audi TTS Ibis

07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

nberry:
Those of us who yearn for a paddle type transmission which mimics a manual will find the DCT woefully lacking. Though the above thread points out reliability problems my experience with the Ca. DCT was a disappointment. Having driven a F1 for years, I loved the nuanced shifts and downshifts giving me the impression of manual shifting but at a faster rate. The Ca DCT was like driving the F1 while in automatic mode. The shifting was almost seamless and the sensation of performance driving was conspicuously absent. Though the downshifts were more distinct, nevertheless the performance driving experience suffered greatly. In my view too fast of shifting takes away from the sport car experience.

The DCT in the Ca is programmed to be smooth Nick. Ferrari say they can dial in a shift delay to mimmick the sensation of the F1 box and presumably will do if DCT makes it onto the F450. Interestingly Lamborghini's e-gear single clutch box is often criticised for being too violent on shift changes. I think Ferrari have got the F1 box absolutely spot on in the Scuderia

I'm off out to my Porsche dealer to pick up a PDK Cayman S for a 24hr demo for my other half as I'm thinking about trading her 3.4 Boxster S in for a Gen 2 Boster S as I've been offered a very attractive deal on either a new manual car or a PDK car that they have in stock. It'll be interesting to see what PDK with sport chrono is like as I've only driven a non sport chrono PDK Gen 2 Carrera S before.

ISUK:

I'm off out to my Porsche dealer to pick up a PDK Cayman S for a 24hr demo for my other half as I'm thinking about trading her 3.4 Boxster S in for a Gen 2 Boster S as I've been offered a very attractive deal on either a new manual car or a PDK car that they have in stock. It'll be interesting to see what PDK with sport chrono is like as I've only driven a non sport chrono PDK Gen 2 Carrera S before.

Please post your impressions.

I'm curious about it.

ONUR

09 Audi TTS Ibis

07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

ISUK:

I'm off out to my Porsche dealer to pick up a PDK Cayman S for a 24hr demo for my other half as I'm thinking about trading her 3.4 Boxster S in for a Gen 2 Boster S as I've been offered a very attractive deal on either a new manual car or a PDK car that they have in stock. It'll be interesting to see what PDK with sport chrono is like as I've only driven a non sport chrono PDK Gen 2 Carrera S before.

 

Attractive deals? UK Porsche dealers? Don't tell me that they have woken up to the fact we are in the middle of a world recession and buyers don't come flooding through the door begging them to take their money - because that is the attitude of mine (Bournemouth).

Do let us know how you get on with the Cayman S PDK loaner.

My wife used a DSG Golf GTI modified to 200kw/450nm and we had no problems at all in 30,000km.  Maybe the problem is just BMW...

Just back from the Porsche dealer after a 24 hour loan of a Gen 2 Cayman with PDK. Unfortunately the car didn't have the sport chrono option and therefore no sport plus button No matter, I gave it a thorough work out in spite of this and came away thoroughly impressed.

The shift pattern on this Cayman seemed much better than a Gen 2 Carrera S I tried last year. This car had more miles on it which could help to explain that. The downshifts in kickdown  when in full auto mode were excellent and I found myself not using the manual option apart from when driving on some more switchback country roads where taking control of the gearchange provided more involvement and fun. The increased power level of the new DFI engine is very apparent as are the revisions to the handling. I took a manual Boxster S out as well just to see if there was a noticeable difference in the 10bhp defecit against the Cayman  (which there wasn't) and it stuck to the road like glue. My only mistake was in dropping by the BMW dealer last night to look at the new Z4. I didn't like the exterior styling at all but the interior with the optional Pure White design package was fantastic. It makes the Porsche interior feel very cheap and low rent in comparison

I took the demo back this morning and did a deal on a Basalt black Boxster S with PDK and sport chrono. I got an excellent price for my other half's 29 month old 3.4 S and she is very excited about picking up the new car on Tuesday evening. Thank goodness I waited a few months to do this deal as the cost to change was considerably lower than it was back in early March I feel that the dealer really did their absolute best to reward my custom for the past 5 years or so which was great. I'm off to France for a holiday in the new car on Wednesday so am looking forward to breaking it in on some great roads.

Congrats ISUK! Enjoy the car but be aware of those pesky Gendarms... they always like to pick on Brits...

REALZEUS:

Congrats ISUK! Enjoy the car but be aware of those pesky Gendarms... they always like to pick on Brits...

Thanks realzeus. I won't have to worry about those Gendarmes as I always observe the speed limits of course

Boxster S with PDK is an excellent choice. One of the best performance values on the market today.

Enjoy your holiday. 

ISUK:

 I'm off to France for a holiday in the new car on Wednesday so am looking forward to breaking it in on some great roads.

Nothing would have been better than this
 

CONGRATTSSS and enjoy it in good health

ONUR

09 Audi TTS Ibis

07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

 i think we need someone to give a precise and unpartial account of how both gearboxes work. and the pros and cons of each.

Here are my personal opinions after long test drives:

1. best simulated manual feel: the Scuderia gearbox (by far the winner)

2. best manual feel of one of those double-clutch gearboxes: Ferrari's DCT

3. best auto mode: Porsche's PDK on auto Sport+ mode

I don't think I am going to switch my Scuderia for a DCT-Turbo 450.

And if I am going to buy a Porsche, it will be manual.

DCT are for now the best GT gearboxes, not the best gearboxes for a "driver's car" like a GT3 or a Scuderia.

Pentium:

I don't think I am going to switch my Scuderia for a DCT-Turbo 450.

And would you switch it for a DCT-NA-450 with the same weight as the Scuderia?

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Good question but still, no. Both the DCT and the PDK I drove (by the way I test drove 4 different Porsche's, each for one day), both made me feel out of the driving "equation". The Scuderia and the GT3 makes the driver count. And for such cars, which I don't consider daily-drivers but more weekend-stress-release-toys, I want to feel that I am in the middle of the action not that I am playing a better computer game.

I don't like GT's guys, sorry. I rather take an SUV for a long trip than a GT. And that's the feeling you get from those gearboxes.

--
There is no try. Just do.

And one more thing Rossi: NO WAY the weight will be the same when they increase capacity (and even worse they add the Turbo). Perhaps only if the car gets smaller...

However, I would for sure test drive one for a longer period of time before buying it and I would not buy one of the cars produced in the first two years (same goes for any new Porsche with the exception of the mkII GT3 ). These days they add too many things at once on a car.

Pentium:

However, I would for sure test drive one for a longer period of time before buying it and I would not buy one of the cars produced in the first two years (same goes for any new Porsche with the exception of the mkII GT3 ). These days they add too many things at once on a car.

 

That's true. I'm really having a hard time deciding what to do. Wait for the F430 successor or upgrading my 430 to a Scuderia.

I really don't know. One day I think the Scuderia is a hell of a car and as good as a F360/F430 can get, the other day I find myself not that much attracted by a car with stripes and no carpet, if you know what I mean.

I guess I will have to wait for the final result (F450) to find out what I like better.
 

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Went out for a blast in my Scuderia today and WOW what fun it is Pentium is spot on about being in the middle of the action. Forget carpets Rossi....... who needs them, they're very over rated

The F450 may well be able to match a Scuderia in performance (we shall have to wait and see if this is true) but I can't imagine it's going to rival it for sheer exhiliration and the ability to get your adrenalin pumping. The wail of the engine as those LED shift lights start blinking on is automotive nectar I swear

Pentium:

Here are my personal opinions after long test drives:

1. best simulated manual feel: the Scuderia gearbox (by far the winner)

2. best manual feel of one of those double-clutch gearboxes: Ferrari's DCT

3. best auto mode: Porsche's PDK on auto Sport+ mode

I don't think I am going to switch my Scuderia for a DCT-Turbo 450.

And if I am going to buy a Porsche, it will be manual.

DCT are for now the best GT gearboxes, not the best gearboxes for a "driver's car" like a GT3 or a Scuderia.

 

Very good and honest opinion.
 

To add few things about PDK and Cali DCT...

PDK:

-to me(and maybe it is just my personal observation) it seems that PDK likes much more to be used in D(auto) modes then in manual. Be is standards, Sport or Sport +.

-best auto mode is again IMHO not Sport+ since it is not very good for everyday use. On the track or very spirited country road driving Sport+ is the best mode(in auto D). For everyday use stick with Sport mode only.

-minor drive off clunking when car is cold. More prone to this on cold(winter) weather then in summer. Just, I had this experince two days ago and brand new C4S(btw, I am thinking about C4S PDK since my dealer have few on them on stock)...

-I am now more sure then ever-PDK is designed as TIP replacment and key importance was Auto mode usage.

-manual remains better option for pursits and true enthusiasts.

Cali DCT:

-works very good in manual mode. Interesting enough it has nothing to do with paddles IMO. Just, Ferrari payed more attention to manual mode execution then Porsche in PDK.

-auto mode is very good, BUT PDKs Sport and Sport+ are better(Sport+ really better, Sport almost equal to Cali DCTs auto mode).

-not very nice hesitation on uphill start.

-overall pretty good-just in drivers involvement very far from F1 Superfast in Scud.

Regarding drive-off clunking or uphill start hesitation. It is pretty common thing to all DCTs. Also they are not as smooth on parking speed as automatic or very good driver with manual. Belive it or not the best DCTs for everyday use are VW DSGs in various models. They are not as good as others(PDK or DCT) on fast driving but, are better on slow/city driving and on drive-off/parking speed situations.

Kreso, thanks for your well researched opinions. You are looking deeply into the subject. However, sometimes I find that this very thorough analysis doesn't allow the person to enjoy the various systems, because minor niggles could overshadow the big benefits.

I find the PDK is very very smooth in Normal mode everywhere from slow driving, parking, drive-off to faster driving. I wonder why the cars you drove behaved differently?

The PDK is an excellent Automatic transmission system. It's best if left in D and you overide with the buttons whenever you think necessary. Manual mode is only for a short time e.g. very twisty and awkward sections when you definitely desire to stay in a certain gear or choose when to change up or down. If you put it in Manual and try to go all the way choosing the gears yourself, it is a waste of effort and time. What I enjoy most is the speed generated because of the PDK. By the time your brain instructs your leg to push the clutch pedal and your arm to move the lever in a manual gearbox, The PDK kicks down from VI to III or even II and you are GONE!

Reginos,

PDK behaved little bit strange on that C4S. On Cayman S that I drove it worked very fine indeed.

The PDK is an excellent Automatic transmission system.

That is the whole point IMHO.

What I find pretty akward in PDK overall execution is huge difference in standard and Sport programms. If you use standard you can reach low fuel consumption figures that Porsche claims in 997.2 brochure. BUT, if you use Sport most of the time fuel consumption is much, much bigger. Overall I like PDK pretty much.

KresoF1:

Regarding drive-off clunking or uphill start hesitation. It is pretty common thing to all DCTs. Also they are not as smooth on parking speed as automatic or very good driver with manual. Belive it or not the best DCTs for everyday use are VW DSGs in various models. They are not as good as others(PDK or DCT) on fast driving but, are better on slow/city driving and on drive-off/parking speed situations.

This is CORRECT.

I haven't driven Cali's DCT or Porsche's PDK but my TTS S-Tronic is more like an auto box.

Couple of things I don't like it about:

Even in manual mode, it up shifts at the red line.

Even in manual mode, it shifts down couple of gears if you kick down.

And it crowls if you don't apply brakes; it is like as it has a torque converter. Therefore in city/heavy traffic driving and on park manouvers it can be assumed better. HOWEVER, I would have prefered E46 M3 SMGII box.

ONUR

09 Audi TTS Ibis

07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

5th Gear showed last night that PDK on a track is slower than a manual in a Cayman:

Video: http://fwd.five.tv/videos/porsche-shootout

Cool video. What's even funnier is that the manual car didn't had the SportChrono option... which in theory should give you a little more rpm on the red line and a more sporty PSM (those two really should count on a manual gearbox car)... I wonder about the rear diff option...

Pentium:

Cool video. What's even funnier is that the manual car didn't had the SportChrono option... which in theory should give you a little more rpm on the red line and a more sporty PSM (those two really should count on a manual gearbox car)... I wonder about the rear diff option...

Porsche GB obviously were hoping the PDK car would win, so they could spec the 2 Press cars how they wanted...

I wonder if flappy paddles would have helped improve Jason's opinion, I doubt it would have made the car any faster though...

--

On their (5th Gear Show) Audi TT 2.0TFSI manual vsAudi TT 2.0 TFSI DSG test, Vicki was faster with the DSG equipped car even if she prefered the manual one.

--

ONUR

09 Audi TTS Ibis

07 997 Carrera S / 05 M3 Coupe / 03 M3 Coupe / 96 M3 Coupe EVO (ALL BUT HISTORY)

Alex_997TT:

5th Gear showed last night that PDK on a track is slower than a manual in a Cayman:

Video: http://fwd.five.tv/videos/porsche-shootout

Strange video... Why? I tried Cayman S with PDK and IMHO it is even better overall package then 997.2 Carrera S with PDK and SPASM. Of course, with SC+.

Do not forget that Sport Auto achieved 1.13,9min with Cayman S(PDK, SC+, LSD and 19") which is the SAME time as achieved by 997.2 Carrera 4S(PDK, SC+ and SPASM!).

BUT, manual in Porsche's is so good that choosing PDK is very personal thing indeed.