Crown

Hi, guys, my cousin, who's just bought a 997 Turbo, wants his rear spoiler to lift higher when extended.  He thinks the Turbo Cab rear spoiler lifts higher than Turbo Coupe one by about 2 inches or so.  Is he correct?

Also, if it is true, is it then possible to replace the hydraulic lift hinges (cylinders) of the spoiler of his coupe to the ones for the cab, and achieve the increase in height?  Is it a straight replacement fit, and are there any other parts also which have to be changed? 

Any other ideas?!

Cheers.

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"I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road without being questioned about their intent"

He is correct,the TT Cab rear spoiler lifts higher than the coupe

About the lift cilinders,i think are the same for coupe and cab,and i think is different only the stop point,don't know if in a Porsche center with the Porsche Tester they can do something

Sure it affect the aerodinamics of the car..so don't know if is possible to make this mod..

maybe tell him to ask in his Porsche Center..

why would he want to do that ? nobody will even notice........

It lifts 30mm higher than the Coupe, so approx. 1.18 inches.

"A typical superficial american" 

08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

Arshad:

Hi, guys, my cousin, who's just bought a 997 Turbo, wants his rear spoiler to lift higher when extended.  He thinks the Turbo Cab rear spoiler lifts higher than Turbo Coupe one by about 2 inches or so.  Is he correct?

Also, if it is true, is it then possible to replace the hydraulic lift hinges (cylinders) of the spoiler of his coupe to the ones for the cab, and achieve the increase in height?  Is it a straight replacement fit, and are there any other parts also which have to be changed? 

Any other ideas?!

Cheers.

 

Replacing the hydraulic cylenders will cost about $1500 for a pair.  Service manual recommends changing the hydraulic tubing, which isn't sold separately, so the entire kit will probably be >$2000.  Then, after installing it, you'll have to flush and bleed the hydraulics, which I have personally done on the 997TT...it is a pain and not a one man job.

I'm fairly certain the part numbers fot the cylenders are different for the cab.  When bleeding the hydraulics, if you fill the pump, tubing, and cylenders with as much Pentosin as possible, the maximum elevation of the inner cylender is not as high as the cab (even if you go beyond Porsche's specs.)

"Replacing the hydraulic cylenders will cost about $1500 for a pair.  Service manual recommends changing the hydraulic tubing, which isn't sold separately, so the entire kit will probably be >$2000.  Then, after installing it, you'll have to flush and bleed the hydraulics, which I have personally done on the 997TT...it is a pain and not a one man job.

 

I'm fairly certain the part numbers fot the cylenders are different for the cab.  When bleeding the hydraulics, if you fill the pump, tubing, and cylenders with as much Pentosin as possible, the maximum elevation of the inner cylender is not as high as the cab (even if you go beyond Porsche's specs.)"

Thanks, bbywu!  Didn't know he would have to change the hydraulic tubing & refill hydraulic fluid into the circuit as well (thought it was just a straight-replacement of parts).

You're also right - the part numbers for the lift cylinders are indeed different.  But was not very clear about your last sentence - do you mean that even if he changes the lift cylinder, he will still not get the required height? 

In any case, I'll inform him about your advice and see what he decides. 

(I've also sent him an e-mail inviting him to this forum!)

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"I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road without being questioned about their intent"

Not worth it IMO. The thing is soooo ugly to begin with. I see my car and get all excited and then  I notice the wing and that instantly brings me down. 

Here's a comp of height differences:

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2007 997 Turbo

Cheers, MMD - thanks for the pics.  Sorry to hear you and your rear wing don't get along!!   Personally, I quite like the look of the Turbo wing, especially since it is not too obtrusive to spoil the clean rear end of a 911, and also I think it suits the wide body nicely.

Arshad:

"Replacing the hydraulic cylenders will cost about $1500 for a pair.  Service manual recommends changing the hydraulic tubing, which isn't sold separately, so the entire kit will probably be >$2000.  Then, after installing it, you'll have to flush and bleed the hydraulics, which I have personally done on the 997TT...it is a pain and not a one man job.

 

I'm fairly certain the part numbers fot the cylenders are different for the cab.  When bleeding the hydraulics, if you fill the pump, tubing, and cylenders with as much Pentosin as possible, the maximum elevation of the inner cylender is not as high as the cab (even if you go beyond Porsche's specs.)"

 

Thanks, bbywu!  Didn't know he would have to change the hydraulic tubing & refill hydraulic fluid into the circuit as well (thought it was just a straight-replacement of parts).

You're also right - the part numbers for the lift cylinders are indeed different.  But was not very clear about your last sentence - do you mean that even if he changes the lift cylinder, he will still not get the required height? 

In any case, I'll inform him about your advice and see what he decides. 

(I've also sent him an e-mail inviting him to this forum!)

--
"I dream of a better tomorrow, where chickens can cross the road without being questioned about their intent"

If you look at the service manual, there are instructions for replacing the hydraulic system.  If you wanted to do just the cylenders, it is possible, but they recommend changing the tubing also.  I've personally gone through this hell, and found that if you change the washers, you could get away with just the cylenders...

When I did my own, I modified the instructions.  When you disconnect the old cylenders and are ready to mount the new ones, you need to invert the cylender, fill the chamber and have someone hold it upside down to keep the fluid in the chamber.  Then, you take the tubing, submerge it under a cup or basin of pentosin, and have someone activate the spoiler up and down.  In doing so, the pump flushes and draws until all the bubbles are out of the line.  Then you attach the tubing and tighten the screws.  As  you tighten, someone needs to activate the spoiler, to flush excess pentosin from the line...as this happens, you tighten the bolt to seal the line.  You need to do this with each side.

The spoiler activator will continue to supply energy to the pump until the cylender is completely deployed.  On the manual, it suggests that you measure I believe a set height "X" mms...I can't remember the exact number.  To get that height, you release the bolt ever so slightly to remove excess Pentosin, and lower the spoiler cylender, then you retighten the bolt.  Once you have the correct height, you have to match it to the other side. 

Even if you allow the pump to push the heigt of the cylender to its maximum position, it will not be as high as the turbo cab.

Hope that helps. It is extremely tedius and painful, as I hope my explaination above suggests  .

Ultimately, I decided to go with this:  (yes the wing is fixed on a Ruf...I had Ruf remove the inactive spoiler button with a GT3 lower console)

Arshad:

Cheers, MMD - thanks for the pics.  Sorry to hear you and your rear wing don't get along!!   Personally, I quite like the look of the Turbo wing, especially since it is not too obtrusive to spoil the clean rear end of a 911, and also I think it suits the wide body nicely.

Hey Buddy. Yeah..., it's all personal preference for sure.  

What bugs me? The original turbos had to have big "whale tails" which also functioned like wings. They enclosed the intercooler as you know.

Today? My guess is Porsche could have easily fashioned a retractable spoiler like the NA 997 has. Instead they "fluffed up" the TT with the distinctive wing.  I'm not a kid anymore, don't live in a big car culture capital like SoCal, and don't want to attract attention; the wing messes that up a bit. Oh well... .

mmd, ive agreed with you on this before and still do. nothing better than the clean back of the standard carrera.

the turbo wing messes with the pure 911 theme.

then again seeing it in the rear view mirror, i am reminded of driving a turbo....and seeing my rear screen in 2 halves reminds me i am in the mighty gt2

intouch1:

mmd, ive agreed with you on this before and still do. nothing better than the clean back of the standard carrera.

the turbo wing messes with the pure 911 theme.

then again seeing it in the rear view mirror, i am reminded of driving a turbo....and seeing my rear screen in 2 halves reminds me i am in the mighty gt2

LOL. Yup. GT2 Niiiiiice!

In my ordinary TT, I wish I could get it out of my mind!

Nothing is perfect, I wasn't thrilled with the golf-balls-in-cheeks front bumper fog lights, but I got over them, the oval exhaust tips: assimilated. The dash "wart?" Done: I've accepted it.  However, sometimes I park on the street and come out of my house, look down from front porch and the car looks great; it looks better than great! I then notice the wing and say, "Oh..., sht! That [expletive] wing!" HAHAHA!  I don't have time to  get psychoanalyzed and cured!

Here's another comp, slightly OT from original post..., sorry.

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2007 997 Turbo

Oh, I get it!!  And I was under the impression you wanted a higher wing!!!! 

Arshad:

Oh, I get it!!  And I was under the impression you wanted a higher wing!!!! 

HAHA!  Wings can drive people crazy!

Here's a classic for more wing fun. Heck..., if it makes the car faster around a track,that's good; so who cares what it looks like?

Is that a wing or a bunk bed?!!! 

then again, this guy seemed to have wanted a wing.....and then went for it  

hahahaha

Same here - I know the wing belongs to the Turbo, but I have to admit that it is not that beautiful. Somehow Porsche recognized this by themself as the newer Turbos compared to the older (i.e. 993) already got a more decent wing.

bbywu - Thanks for the detailed explanation and pics.  I think the last pic is what he wants to achieve.  I've forwarded them to my cousin.  I now wait for his response. 

Lars997:

Same here - I know the wing belongs to the Turbo, but I have to admit that it is not that beautiful. Somehow Porsche recognized this by themself as the newer Turbos compared to the older (i.e. 993) already got a more decent wing.

Yeah..., thru the ages it remains  very difficult to see them as "must have" gorgeous.

Comp photo FWIW,

MMD - great Comp-Picture you found. This is exactley what I meant, this nasty thing is getting smaller.

well actually i think the wing on the 993 turbo was pretty good looking as it was integrated with the rear and did not look added on...

Lars997:

MMD - great Comp-Picture you found. This is exactley what I meant, this nasty thing is getting smaller.

My pleasure.

Here's something relevant wing-wise. The 997 vs. 996:

Interesting..., . The 997 got pretty bizzy looking.

intouch1:

well actually i think the wing on the 993 turbo was pretty good looking as it was integrated with the rear and did not look added on...

Here ya go.  . Good point.

funny how the 993 looks more 'today' than the 996......i guess that's what defines a good design fom a mediocre one...

intouch1:

funny how the 993 looks more 'today' than the 996......i guess that's what defines a good design fom a mediocre one...

I'm not sure how much the relocation of the intercooler(s) has to do with it? 996 wing does look somewhat like it is an after market add-on.

I define good design as "less-is-more" so for me (living in a private Hell) Porsche's are getting worse and worse looking because they have been adding unnecessary styling details.

actually the 997 is a back to the roots design. very clean and to the point.

it's the turbo where they messed up. typical german conservatism. otoh they want but otoh the don't really commit to it.....

Maybe it's just me, but I think the 993 Turbo, the 964 Turbo's rear wings, because of the location of the intercooler, looks tacked on and ruins the smooth lines of a 911, they looks like the 911 is carrying a gigantic backpack, or a turtle's shell, easpecially the 993 Turbo ones, the 964 Turbo wings at least kept the picnic table looks or the original 930 Turbo.

But the ones on the 997 Turbo, and a lesser degree the 996 Turbo, looks more intergrated and streamlined with the shape of the car, it's the most understated wings of the Turbo family.

I keep saying this because I can't adjust to reality of the wing. Because the intercoolers are no longer a problem I'm claiming Porsche COULD have chosen to produce the 997 Turbo WITHOUT a wing and tweeked the body's "aero-kit" to complement a retractable spoiler just like the non-turbo 997.

Hey! Now I feel a compulsion I  to post this photo: 

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2007 997 Turbo

MMD:

I define good design as "less-is-more" so for me (living in a private Hell) Porsche's are getting worse and worse looking because they have been adding unnecessary styling details.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
....... Because the intercoolers are no longer a problem I'm claiming Porsche COULD have chosen to produce the 997 Turbo WITHOUT a wing and tweeked the body's "aero-kit" to complement a retractable spoiler just like the non-turbo 997.

 

MMD, many of us are guilty of rambling on these forums, but is this endless, senseless rambling really necessary?   Your mission, should you choose to accept, is to google the words aerodynamic lift, drag, turbulence, Bernoulli's, and wing, and read ALL the articles before posting another post on this subject.  Frankly, I am surprised RC or Eunice has not  banned you yet.  

Kidding aside, there are 2 issues here, aesthetics and function.
Esthetically: "I don't like the wing, but I understand it's a matter of personal preference." That's one sentence; end of story. There is no need for your 400 posts on the subject, no? 
Functionally, first I thought you knew why the wing is there and you were just kidding around. But now I am not so sure:  your posts are devoid of  any  information on the importance of the rear wing.
1. The rear wing is there for 2 very very important reasons. (You could find them in the googled articles.) In fact in a car this fast, I would say it is dangerous to not have the wing. In addition, the shape of the rear end of the Porsche, a fairly steep slope downward, as opposed to say the gentle slope of the Ferrari F430, makes the wing even more important. The wing at the 911 is not a cosmetic part; it is a functional part of the car.
2. The rear engine placement of the 911 makes the rear end wants to swing like a pendulum; this we all know. I've read that it makes rear down force even more critical for the 911. This means bigger and taller wing. Bottom line: The wing is important to the 911 and the retractible small wing of the 997S is in fact a compromise.
3. In general, and in particular for the 911, a wing works better when it is bigger and higher, towards the roof line. This is fact. If you have any doubt, look at the enclosed picture. That's the winning cup car of the last Long Beach GP.

I have an article that I will upload later on.

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Regards,
Can
997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Review)

we corner nowhere near the speeds that the cup cars do and we pull nowhere near the lateral g-forces that these cars do. it's tire/grip, wing combination.

secondly, if the carrera wing provides enough downforce, it would be good enough for the turbo too.

the wing on the turbo is to cosmetically differentiate the turbo from a standard fare carrera.