Crown

Anybody know what the experts say on this? Specifically I'm thinking of Formula One drivers who were around when their cars lost their clutch pedals and shift levers.

What did they say at the time? What do they say now? Have many of them quit F1 because they no longer had enough "driver involvement?"

At the moment I am really missing the extra involvment of the manual.

Yes, generaly PDK is faster , more precise, and lets you concentrate on the road, but this version is laking something. It needs improvement in order to match the pedegree of the Carrera.

It is still a bit of a love/hate relationship, I have with this gearbox. But  since I wrote my review , it is much more on the hate side.........

MMD said: "Writing on the wall: manual tranny will disappear; driving fun, desirability and demand for PDK will thrive. Why? Not because drivers are lazy or stupid but because enjoyable "driver involvement" increases with PDK."

No way. Manual tranny will never disappear. This is not F1 - these cars are for driving enjoyment. For too many drivers, this will mean a manual transmission.

I enjoy autocross on a regular basis and it takes place at our track (2 laps). Even if PDK took several seconds off of my times, I would not get it.

 Gnil: I feel badly for you. I know you would have preferred a  C2S over your last 911C4S. Would you now have preferred a manual C2S over your PDK C2S?

GR:

My original Lotus Elise had no power steering and no servo brakes.  The steering had far superior feel to any Porsche since 1989 and the brakes were far easier to modulate. Because the car was so light, it stopped very quickly too.  Powered systems detach the driver from what is going on and add significant weight.  This only makes for quicker laps if the engine is more powerful and the wheels/tyres bigger too, again to the detriment of weight and feel. 

For a road car, a slight improvement in lap time due to PDK is neither here nor there compared to a race car.  Bearing that in mind, I would prefer to be responsible for making said road car go as quick as possible, not a bunch of obsessive engineers in Stuttgart. 

The Elise, with all due respect, is not a proper car for transport and shouldn't be used for comparison. It is a very focused leisure toy for a weekend spin and the odd trackday, that can do without such systems. A Porsche is an everyday car (although many people, wrongly, don't use it as such) with great performance and comfort for long distances and at the same time a very rewarding track ability.

Another advantage of the PDK that I've found, is the superb smoothness of the drivetrain compared to a manual, that is very satisfying.

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It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

GR:

My original Lotus Elise had no power steering and no servo brakes.  The steering had far superior feel to any Porsche since 1989 and the brakes were far easier to modulate. Because the car was so light, it stopped very quickly too.  Powered systems detach the driver from what is going on and add significant weight.  This only makes for quicker laps if the engine is more powerful and the wheels/tyres bigger too, again to the detriment of weight and feel. 

For a road car, a slight improvement in lap time due to PDK is neither here nor there compared to a race car.  Bearing that in mind, I would prefer to be responsible for making said road car go as quick as possible, not a bunch of obsessive engineers in Stuttgart. 

Did you drive GT3/GT3RS/GT2 as well? The steering of these cars is excellent (best of class, I think). Also, these car's braking distances are even shorter than that of any Lotus (in particular from  higher speeds).

In the end, one has to keep in mind that the Lotus models are very light because they have pretty small engines. These cars are no match at all (on the track and in real life) for the heavier Porsche models. Lotus cars feel light and agile but are rather slow.

My bet: it is not possible to build a very light car with such excellent performance as Porsche's GT series. Ferrari' Enzo and the like demonstrate that even with extraordinary efforst and money investments a powerful, very fast track car does carry substantial weight 

Silver Bullet:

 

 Gnil: I feel badly for you. I know you would have preferred a  C2S over your last 911C4S. Would you now have preferred a manual C2S over your PDK C2S?

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"Rational arguments don't work on religious people, otherwise there'd be no religious people."-House

        My C4S was the right choice at the time. I had no regret getting it, I liked that car very much and was able to drive it like I stoll it , track or snowy roads , but I knew that the next one would be a C2S. I was comming from years and years of driving AWD cars ( not Porsches)

For PDK I am fine for the moment. Even if I think  it needs improvements and if sometimes I regret the lack of involvment.  Changing the puddles to paddles could already help.  I think that if I would of gotten the 6 speed, I would of always lurked on the PDK . I had a chat the other day with a friend who went for the 6 speed 997.2 and he was not sure if he had made the right choice.

Gnil:

I think that if I would of gotten the 6 speed, I would of always lurked on the PDK . I had a chat the other day with a friend who went for the 6 speed 997.2 and he was not sure if he had made the right choice.

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 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

I drive my Boxster 6 speed (which I've been trying to sell for 4 months now without success, as a result of shortage of credit) and a friend's 997.1 6 speed, along with the PDK car.

I am telling you that getting a manual car doesn't make any sense at all now that the PDK is an option. The choice of manual was obvious before with the tiptronic but not anymore.

I advise potential buyers not to be influenced and get carried away by various "forum experts" who (most probably) haven't even been near the system.

Another point about the 997.2 is that the exhaust note has been improving with time and mileage covered. At first it was very flat and anonymous, whereas now it is much sportier. Still, I am waiting for the PSE to be released.

In answer to all the points, I used my Elise as a daily driver and even took it over to Europe on an 800 mile round trip.  Not the greatest tourer (actually pretty rubbish) and nowhere near as good as Porsche but I was simply using that car of an example of how modern powered systems blunt interaction.  PDK makes this worse and I have driven with it extensively on road and track. 

All 997/987 era Porsche with the variable rack lack a certain amount of steering feel which I think is a pity.  It varies across the range and seems to be getting worse but I prefer my 986 steering to even the Gen 1 GT3.  But I'm straying from the point of the thread here.

Personally, I would not dream of ordering a car with PDK and I have just one car for commuting in heavy traffic, going to the shops, on trips/holiday and occasionally going to the track.  If the interface had been better, the decision would be harder but I would still go the manual route.  This is because I enjoy driving, I derive great pleasure from getting it right and a key part of this is feeling connected to the car.  PDK takes too much of that away and there will always be people who feel the same way.

GR stick to your choice. If it makes you happy it cannot be that bad.

One point I wish to make is that whern I test drove PDK I found it somewhat weird too. Now that I live with it and explore it day in day out I find it marvelous.

Porsche offer a choice of a great manual and a great modern clutchless gearbox, so we can all find our element

Gnil:

I think that if I would of gotten the 6 speed, I would of always lurked on the PDK . I had a chat the other day with a friend who went for the 6 speed 997.2 and he was not sure if he had made the right choice.

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  997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

Back again!  

Silver Bullet:

MMD said: "Writing on the wall: manual tranny will disappear; driving fun, desirability and demand for PDK will thrive. Why? Not because drivers are lazy or stupid but because enjoyable "driver involvement" increases with PDK."

No way. Manual tranny will never disappear. This is not F1 - these cars are for driving enjoyment. For too many drivers, this will mean a manual transmission.

I enjoy autocross on a regular basis and it takes place at our track (2 laps). Even if PDK took several seconds off of my times, I would not get it.

Maybe you are right. But things change and we are old.

I learned to drive a stick on a TR6. "All" my friends' dad's had their own toy sports cars or some kind of 'normal' car with a manual. Today, what are young people's options? Finding a family second car with a manual is probably next to impossible. There're not many manuals anymore to learn on and become "addicted" to. Eventually, perhaps getting your hands on a stick (HAHA) will be harder and harder as a learner. Plus the video game thing... .

Lots of guys will be buying "PDK" and eventually they will outnumber and exceed manuals.

As we've seen, "sports cars" have become less and less about machine-performance  and subtleties of driving feedback from the road and car to the driver in the old rough-and-tumble classic sense. Cars have become more and more about being isolated, cocooned, in a capsule that precisely and quickly flies through space (albeit in two dimensions). Next generation guys want to push buttons (video game training) and have things happen.

reginos:

I am telling you that getting a manual car doesn't make any sense at all now that the PDK is an option. The choice of manual was obvious before with the tiptronic but not anymore.

I advise potential buyers not to be influenced and get carried away by various "forum experts" who (most probably) haven't even been near the system.

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It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

Reginos, with all due respect, you are calling forum members "forum experts" but you are the one sounding like one of those "forum experts". You don't seem to be able to grasp or comprehend why others still preffer the involvement and experience of a manual tranny, and thats fine, your loss, but your respectable opinion is just an opinion, there are others with more experience than you with the PDK here and don't necesarily agree with yours for example so keep an open mind.

Shifting is a key part in the driving experience of sportcars and there is no one and only good solution, it depends on the driver. I for one would be miserable if I can't work the clutch and the stick while happily driving along a mountain road, and no automatic tranny can be a substitute because of what their name implies, no matter how good they are. And that YOU cannot negate that because you are not me. For others may be the opposite, it may be not so important to shift manually or even bothersome and with the new DCTs the performance drawbacks are a thing of the past so its a win win for them.

What I'm trying to say is that to reduce transmitions in sportcars to one option is a very one dimential and narrowminded approach. The debate is always going to be, manual vs which auto (torque converter SCT, DCT, etc), because the two will never overlap completely, they can be compared in performace, weight, usability, confort, # gears, etc but there is always one thing that will be different, one has clutch and stick and the other one doesn't, and that difference alone is huge because its linked to involvement in the driving experience in a part of the sportcar drivers, and the driving experience should be one of the highest priorities in sportcars.

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

I am telling you that getting a manual car doesn't make any sense at all now that the PDK is an option. The choice of manual was obvious before with the tiptronic but not anymore.

I advise potential buyers not to be influenced and get carried away by various "forum experts" who (most probably) haven't even been near the system.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

Reginos, with all due respect, you are calling forum members "forum experts" but you are the one sounding like one of those "forum experts". You don't seem to be able to grasp or comprehend why others still preffer the involvement and experience of a manual tranny, and thats fine, your loss, but your respectable opinion is just an opinion, there are others with more experience than you with the PDK here and don't necesarily agree with yours for example so keep an open mind.

Shifting is a key part in the driving experience of sportcars and there is no one and only good solution, it depends on the driver. I for one would be miserable if I can't work the clutch and the stick while happily driving along a mountain road, and no automatic tranny can be a substitute because of what their name implies, no matter how good they are. And that YOU cannot negate that because you are not me. For others may be the opposite, it may be not so important to shift manually or even bothersome and with the new DCTs the performance drawbacks are a thing of the past so its a win win for them.

What I'm trying to say is that to reduce transmitions in sportcars to one option is a very one dimential and narrowminded approach. The debate is always going to be, manual vs which auto (torque converter SCT, DCT, etc), because the two will never overlap completely, they can be compared in performace, weight, usability, confort, # gears, etc but there is always one thing that will be different, one has clutch and stick and the other one doesn't, and that difference alone is huge because its linked to involvement in the driving experience in a part of the sportcar drivers, and the driving experience should be one of the highest priorities in sportcars.

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I agree with you Carlos. Currently I am torn apart with same decision PDK or manual for my Cayman S order. Until two days ago I was pretty sure about what to do-order PDK. Just yesterday I drove Porsche 997 CS(version 1) manual and I think that manual is better thing for me. PDK is IMHO the best current DCT one the market just, as I wrote before PDK programms(standard, sport and sport plus) are sometimes not good or enough for me. I would like more control overall-at all time.

Regions(whom I greatly respect) sometimes sound as Porsche salesman, specially in PDK case.

BTW, Carlos your car is Atlas Grey? I am thinking about that color...

KresoF1:

I agree with you Carlos. Currently I am torn apart with same decision PDK or manual for my Cayman S order. Until two days ago I was pretty sure about what to do-order PDK. Just yesterday I drove Porsche 997 CS(version 1) manual and I think that manual is better thing for me. PDK is IMHO the best current DCT one the market just, as I wrote before PDK programms(standard, sport and sport plus) are sometimes not good or enough for me. I would like more control overall-at all time.

Regions(whom I greatly respect) sometimes sound as Porsche salesman, specially in PDK case.

BTW, Carlos your car is Atlas Grey? I am thinking about that color...

Completely agree, its a tough choice, PDK is a great auto, the best I have tried, but that not enough on the long run IMO. When I tested it at the end of the day I said to myself "I could live with this" (first time I say this about an auto mind you) but deep down I knew that after a while I'm afraid I could not go without the involvement of a manual, and I would miss it once the initial novelty of the DCT wore off.
But thats just for myself, my type of driving, the type of roads I drive in, the use I make of the car (77,000km now), and my style of driving. From what I have read from you, my impression is that I think it would be the same for you, and you have other cars with great auto like the R8 already so...

Mine is actually Basalt black with black leather interior. But I have seen Atlas grey on the showroom (haven't recognised any on the streets) and its nice, not your typical black metallic, though given the choice I preffer Basalt even though its more common and conservative. Rami has a Atlas Grey 997TT here are some pics

http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/307676/997_TT_Atlas_Grey__shes_home_/page1.html

I want faster and high tech. 

Going to be PDK in my next P-car.

Too bad automatic tranny slush-buckets give PDK a bad name. 

MMD:

I want faster and high tech. 

Going to be PDK in my next P-car.

Too bad automatic tranny slush-buckets give PDK a bad name. 

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2007 997 Turbo

Then PDK is the perfect answer for you only drawback are de fuddles but its so efficient (in choosing gears, rev matching, power delivery, shifting, etc) that you end up using it D mode most of the time, even if you love to shift like myself.

I think people are very clear thet the PDK has nothing to do with the Tiptronic; its torque converter elactic-lag throttle feel, its slower shifts, its lack of proper number of gears, its weight, etc... this is all gone in the PDK. If someone judges the PDK by thier experience with the Tip, then they need to do their homework.

Carlos from Spain:

I think people are very clear thet the PDK has nothing to do with the Tiptronic; its torque converter elactic-lag throttle feel, its slower shifts, its lack of proper number of gears, its weight, etc... this is all gone in the PDK. If someone judges the PDK by thier experience with the Tip, then they need to do their homework.

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Yup! There's a world of difference between my SMG M3 and the Sportronic transmission (automatic) I had in one of my previous BMWs.

The absence of a clutch pedal makes people think computer controlled servo-actuated clutch systems (or whatever they are called ) are the same thing from a driver's-seat perspective when compared to an Tip-type automatic.

Makes me wonder if the advent of Synchromesh made old timer double-clutch officianados upset about the future of manual gear box and how much less-involving it would prove to be with synchro cones between gears.

reginos:

I am telling you that getting a manual car doesn't make any sense at all now that the PDK is an option. The choice of manual was obvious before with the tiptronic but not anymore.

I advise potential buyers not to be influenced and get carried away by various "forum experts" who (most probably) haven't even been near the system.

--
It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

        reginos is absolutely right and I see only good and unpretentious advise / oppinion , of he's , on PDK .

I am sooo glad not to be in the market for a 997 right now.

Obviously PDK vs manual is an agony. Porsche really messed up that one with the puddles. With proper paddles, IMHO 90% of 911 would be PDK, no questions asked. 

SciFrog:

I am sooo glad not to be in the market for a 997 right now.

Obviously PDK vs manual is an agony. Porsche really messed up that one with the puddles. With proper paddles, IMHO 90% of 911 would be PDK, no questions asked.

Good point. When the 997 came out reviewers went nuts over the manual gearbox, clutch and shifter. I think one reviewer used the word "perfection" to describe it. IOW, Porsche "finally" got the perfect gearbox into the 911 with the 997.

Very sad that the PDK reviews weren't absolutely stellar (AFAIK).  

@ Kreso + Carlos:

I made  a very conscious decision to buy PDK after many many years of despising  cars without a clutch pedal. Everyday and the more I drive the car the more I am happy wih my decision. It takes some time to get used to the PDK especially if you come from a manual, so the full functionality of this system might not be so obvious during a test drive or a trackday invitation by the Porsche Centre. Another superfluous point has to do with the "infamous" buttons, which from my experience after 2-3 days of driving they become second nature. So don't be discouraged by such rumours alone. All this has proved to be redundant talk to me, after 4000kms with the car.

Having said the above, I am not implying that the Porsche manual is rubbish. On the contrary on the present gen. of cars it is even improved and I fully understand guys like you that wish to stay with with the 6 speed.

In summary my point is not to pass-by the PDK on face value or on the basis of the knocking it gets from some people here (many of whom have not had a chance to experience it properly). Anyone ordering new gen. Porsches, make sure that if you decide to stay with manual it will after a long hard decision process and not based on other people's impressions.

I test drove a PDK car for an hour or so a few months ago. I've driven Ferrari & BMW systems before but didn't have any trouble adapting to Porsche's wheel mounted system. I think using a standard auto-box gear stick to select neutral / reverse / etc. is a sensible solution; no magic buttons / funny little levers /  paddle combinations to learn. Anyone who can drive an auto could get in a drive it.

My main problem was with the positioning and function of the buttons to select standard/sport/sport+ mode. In a right hand drive car the buttons are still on the left so you have to reach behind the gear stick to get at them. Also, I very rarely want to put the suspension into sport mode so it was a pain to have to also find the button to put the suspension back to normal after pressing the sport button. I'd like to see these buttons put somewhere much more accessible - maybe alongside the gear stick  (on the appropriate side for the steering wheel of course) - and the suspension be controlled separately and not automatically activated with the sport throttle/gearbox setting.

Martin

Martin Day:

My main problem was with the positioning and function of the buttons to select standard/sport/sport+ mode. In a right hand drive car the buttons are still on the left so you have to reach behind the gear stick to get at them. Also, I very rarely want to put the suspension into sport mode so it was a pain to have to also find the button to put the suspension back to normal after pressing the sport button. I'd like to see these buttons put somewhere much more accessible - maybe alongside the gear stick  (on the appropriate side for the steering wheel of course) - and the suspension be controlled separately and not automatically activated with the sport throttle/gearbox setting.

Martin

Interesting debate - I think taking a step back from it all, what's great is that, at last, there is a genuine choice between a superb manual transmission and a very well executed PDK transmission. The choice is now, for some, an agonising one because both possibilities are that good.

Before, it was a choice between a superb manual transmission and a truly ancient (and IMHO awful) Tiptronic S gearbox. People usually chose the latter due to its practicality (e.g. for city commuting) - not for its performance (except for the unusual example of the 997TT with Tip S being quicker). That was not a choice between 2 transmissions aimed at the same kind of usage or the same kind of driver.

Rennteam Moderator - 997S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

Another thought occurred to me. OPCs really pushed the PASM technology when it was first introduced on the 997.1  and the same thing I suspect is happening with respect to the PDK technology on the Gen 2 911, Boxster and Cayman. OPCs need to excite interest (to make sales) and will use something new (e.g. new technology) to do it. But that doesn't mean that their recommendation is necessarily the best one.

I remember how few people (especially in the UK) bought the -20mm sports suspension on the 997.1 and how dealers actively discouraged buying it in favour of PASM.

Every mile I have driven has reenforced my view that my choice of -20mm was the right one.

Rennteam Moderator - 997S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection

reginos:

In summary my point is not to pass-by the PDK on face value or on the basis of the knocking it gets from some people here (many of whom have not had a chance to experience it properly). Anyone ordering new gen. Porsches, make sure that if you decide to stay with manual it will after a long hard decision process and not based on other people's impressions.

I think there is also some 'confirmation bias' - the very logical desire we have to confirm to ourselves (and others) that we made the right choice!