Jan 8, 2006 12:41:26 PM
- twin turbo
- Junior
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- Loc: london uk
- Posts: 70, Gallery
- Registered on: Dec 29, 2005
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Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo
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Re: 997 tt dsg
C'mon, people, marketing determines that every model year, a new feature is introduced ( even if the technology is done and "sitting on the shelf ") so that the car gets another round of new annual free publicity . As a buyer, it sucks, but if you were in any company in the same role , you'd do the same or your auto career would not be a very long one.
Re: 997 tt dsg
Quote:
MKW said:
C'mon, people, marketing determines that every model year, a new feature is introduced ( even if the technology is done and "sitting on the shelf ") so that the car gets another round of new annual free publicity . As a buyer, it sucks, but if you were in any company in the same role , you'd do the same or your auto career would not be a very long one.
Very true. Besides, for more fun, I much prefer the manual tranny anyhow. And it does seem odd that enthusiasts on this forum would prefer PDK/PDCS over manual in the 911Turbo for their "sports" car, when a simple ECU re-program, whether factory-endorsed (TTS) or aftermarket, could make up the slight difference in performance. And as Carlos has so eloquently said on other threads, the idea for us enthusiasts who aren't racing these cars, but only driving them hard for fun, is to make the driving process more involving-more fun-which for him, and many of us, involves a manual tranny. It is true that with the new VTG plus other technological developments that the tuners will be more challenged-and there will be greater potential for unsubstantiated claims-but the 997TT will still be successfully tuned aftermarket, albeit with the need for additional testing and costs.
As an aside, I was speaking with one of my flying-nut friends the other day (he owns a variable-pitch turbo prop. airplane using the same concept as in the VTG turbo for the automotive vehicle), and he emphasized how from takeoff and acceleration to steady-state cruising speed, the propeller pitch adjusts its angle-and subsequent engine sound. This may not apply to the 911Turbo VTG, but I wonder if the VTG will affect the car's exhaust note versus the older linear turbo impeller-based exhaust sound, particularly when accelerating and revving from 1,500-5,000rpm's in first and second gears.
Re: 997 tt dsg
I really hope that 997tt with tip wont be faster then manual version. If this will be the case then something is wrong with Porsche technical ability... 
PDK should be faster then manual or tip but, more fun?? We shoud see!
The only other cars that are faster with automatic gearboxes are Mercedes-Benz models. And if 997tt is faster 0-100km/h with tip then manual do you guys belive that it will be also faster around track like Hockenheim or Nordschleife?? IMO, I do not think so. Also, Porsche marketing will have tough time to explaine to people why is-first time in Porsche history-Tiptronic 911turbo(997tt) faster then manual version. Normal scenario for me is: tip-fast,manual-faster and PDK-fastest.
PDK should be faster then manual or tip but, more fun?? We shoud see!The only other cars that are faster with automatic gearboxes are Mercedes-Benz models. And if 997tt is faster 0-100km/h with tip then manual do you guys belive that it will be also faster around track like Hockenheim or Nordschleife?? IMO, I do not think so. Also, Porsche marketing will have tough time to explaine to people why is-first time in Porsche history-Tiptronic 911turbo(997tt) faster then manual version. Normal scenario for me is: tip-fast,manual-faster and PDK-fastest.
Re: 997 tt dsg
I also dont think that tiptr. will be faster then manual. Anyway, even if. I wouldnt care to much, cause one of the biggest pleasure with a sportscar is imo the manual trani. Or course I mean a good one, like porsche has.
Maybe PDK (or lets say for sure) will be about 0.1 faster from 0-100. But form 100-200 or something else in between i am sure they are same or even the manual trani is faster.
Anyway, imo an automatic trani, pdk is at the end of the day also just a modern auto trani, has nothing to do in a porsche, or any other sports car. of course on a race track a good dsg system may help you to be a bit faster, but it buy far wouldnt make as much fan as with a manual trani. And lets don't forget that this automatic system very often shift they gears when they shouldnt.
And also lets dont forget that chip-tuning the car with PDK or Tiptr. makes everything more difficult and maybe also impossible. And we all know that a good tuner will get easely more then 15-20 % power out of a turbo.
Maybe PDK (or lets say for sure) will be about 0.1 faster from 0-100. But form 100-200 or something else in between i am sure they are same or even the manual trani is faster.
Anyway, imo an automatic trani, pdk is at the end of the day also just a modern auto trani, has nothing to do in a porsche, or any other sports car. of course on a race track a good dsg system may help you to be a bit faster, but it buy far wouldnt make as much fan as with a manual trani. And lets don't forget that this automatic system very often shift they gears when they shouldnt.
And also lets dont forget that chip-tuning the car with PDK or Tiptr. makes everything more difficult and maybe also impossible. And we all know that a good tuner will get easely more then 15-20 % power out of a turbo.
Re: 997 tt dsg
Quote:
Branimir said:
I really hope that 997tt with tip wont be faster then manual version. If this will be the case then something is wrong with Porsche technical ability...
The only other cars that are faster with automatic gearboxes are Mercedes-Benz models. And if 997tt is faster 0-100km/h with tip then manual do you guys belive that it will be also faster around track like Hockenheim or Nordschleife?? IMO, I do not think so. Also, Porsche marketing will have tough time to explaine to people why is-first time in Porsche history-Tiptronic 911turbo(997tt) faster then manual version. Normal scenario for me is: tip-fast,manual-faster and PDK-fastest.
I agree, the Tip could be faster if intentionally designed to use more of the engine's power/torque reserve, simply because the Tip torque converter (like any traditional auto tranny) is less efficient than a (reasonably skilled) manual driver at transducing that power/torque to the wheels. And a DSG/PDK/PDC setup is simply faster-shifting than is the manual. Again, we all have to assume here that the only difference between the three cars is their tranny. But only if the PDK version were overwhelmingly superior to manual in terms of street performance (unlikely) would I opt for it in this (997TT) car, again because for me, the foot pedal-controlled clutch and stick shift gear selector arrangement is more fun. For another car-for example, my next family sedan when I replace my Audi S4, perhaps the Panamera or Audi RS4-I would be more inclined to go with an automated, double clutch-based tranny, partly because it's just a four-door sedan, and partly because I'm the only manual tranny driver in the family.
Re: 997 tt dsg
I agree that manual transmissions are much more involving to drive than automatics. That feeling of total control, heightened communication, or even that little sense of accomplishment I get after executing a fast, smooth, shift is something that no auto/tip/or even dsg has ever been able to provide yet.
The only time that I've become frustrated with a manual was when driving in heavy stop-and-go traffic. I'm sure the 997tt will be one of the most usable high performance cars available, and will be able to handle such situations with ease, but I'd never even consider driving one in rush hour traffic.
The only time that I've become frustrated with a manual was when driving in heavy stop-and-go traffic. I'm sure the 997tt will be one of the most usable high performance cars available, and will be able to handle such situations with ease, but I'd never even consider driving one in rush hour traffic.
Re: 997 tt dsg
Let's not forget that the Turbo is turbocharged and with a manual, boost drops between shifts . With the broader TQ band from VTG , keeping the foot planted between gears ( and maximizing boost as much as the ECU allows ) whether Tip or PDK could explain the rumored faster Tip acceleration vs manual.
For the gotta have manual/gotta feel like I'm driving a REAL sports car guys , the sound muffled, porky AWD 997 Turbo isn't the one for you anyway - it's the coming naturally aspirated RWD 997 GT3/GT3RS, just like during the 996 series.
For the gotta have manual/gotta feel like I'm driving a REAL sports car guys , the sound muffled, porky AWD 997 Turbo isn't the one for you anyway - it's the coming naturally aspirated RWD 997 GT3/GT3RS, just like during the 996 series.
Jan 9, 2006 2:11:26 AM
- Rafael from Spain
- Junior
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- Loc: Madrid, Spain
- Posts: 73, Gallery
- Registered on: May 16, 2005
- Reply to: Thoma
Re: 997 tt dsg
Tiptronic might be fast off the line and changing gears up (I can understand a faster 0-50Km/h, but after this I do not see any reason why it would be faster). But they are very slow changing gears down; they don't allow changes at certain rev ranges, they don't blip the throttle, so they unsettle the car if down-changing hard into a corner. They up-change when getting close to redline automatically. This in the end makes the torque converter auto car slower on a race track, twisty road or any other drivers place.
I don't think anybody buys the 997TT to drag race in straight line. The pleasure of supercars is talking that perfect twisty road with nobody and extracting the maximum out of it. If you have to change gear down at fewer than 4000 rpm and it takes a full second with no blip of the throttle I am sorry but is not the right option. DSG, SMG... is another matter. I have owned an SMG E46 M3 and have tried a 360 F1 hard and in the end if you know how to use a manual well enough is the most pleasure way of driving around.
Just my 0.02
I don't think anybody buys the 997TT to drag race in straight line. The pleasure of supercars is talking that perfect twisty road with nobody and extracting the maximum out of it. If you have to change gear down at fewer than 4000 rpm and it takes a full second with no blip of the throttle I am sorry but is not the right option. DSG, SMG... is another matter. I have owned an SMG E46 M3 and have tried a 360 F1 hard and in the end if you know how to use a manual well enough is the most pleasure way of driving around.
Just my 0.02
Re: 997 tt dsg
Quote:
MKW said:
Let's not forget that the Turbo is turbocharged and with a manual, boost drops between shifts . With the broader TQ band from VTG , keeping the foot planted between gears ( and maximizing boost as much as the ECU allows ) whether Tip or PDK could explain the rumored faster Tip acceleration vs manual.
For the gotta have manual/gotta feel like I'm driving a REAL sports car guys , the sound muffled, porky AWD 997 Turbo isn't the one for you anyway - it's the coming naturally aspirated RWD 997 GT3/GT3RS, just like during the 996 series.
So true....
I vaguely recall hearing some race car driver (?Heywood) was as fast/faster around a course in a 996TT Tip vs 6sp....it's plausible 99%+ of rennteamers would have similar timing deltas in 99%+ of real-world conds....
Personally, I don't race to make a living or for pleasure, so <5% timing deltas don't mean a lot to me
....I despise cabs, sunroofs, open windows, cupholders, stereo/CD, rear seats, sound insulation, aftermkt anything, etc in my sportscars 
...am a huge fan of the 360CS "less is more" ethos .....I'm simply a fanatic re: how a sportscar "feels" in the twisties, but I have never found trad manuals to be an integral part of my driving pleasure 
....I most enjoy precise steering feel, chassis balance (and computerized safety nets if I screw up), great brake pedal feel and fade resistance, shove-in-the-back hp/torque and a charismatic exhaust note in my sportscars....but actually choosing gears isn't a huge priority for me (esp if I have to work a clutch and defocus from other parts of the driving expce).....but to each his own.....personally, eagerly await a PDK, but will take 997TT Tip if that's what is only avail @launch.....
Re: 997 tt dsg
Let's not forget that the 996 Turbo's econocar-soft clutch pedal with no feel and very high take up point , rubbery cable linkage ( even with the phony "sticktion" of a short shifter ) , and turbo-muffled sound on downshift throttle blips has never thrilled the " driving gloves " guys anyway.
Re: 997 tt dsg
Quote:
DamienL said:
I agree that manual transmissions are much more involving to drive than automatics. That feeling of total control, heightened communication, or even that little sense of accomplishment I get after executing a fast, smooth, shift is something that no auto/tip/or even dsg has ever been able to provide yet.
The only time that I've become frustrated with a manual was when driving in heavy stop-and-go traffic. I'm sure the 997tt will be one of the most usable high performance cars available, and will be able to handle such situations with ease, but I'd never even consider driving one in rush hour traffic.
I could not have said it better.
Jan 11, 2006 1:36:52 PM
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dhayek
- Rennteam Master
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- Loc: Beirut , Lebanon
- Posts: 3839, Gallery
- Registered on: Jul 7, 2004
- Reply to: twin turbo
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