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Re: Tyres
Firstly, hello from a fellow Uk'er, or Mancunian 
Sorrt to say, but you might not get a good response regarding tyre knowledge, since most of the people own the OTHER German brand cars
But we'll see.
You might bet better off posting thsi question at...:
Mbworld....
http://forums.mbworld.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=e5d7315bdce72a0ca4f87f79e48b8c04&forumid=46
AMG Owners club:
http://forum-international.amg-owners-club.org/board.php?boardid=29&sid=e36da34d906bd329949c10db24b2a9c0
Sorrt to say, but you might not get a good response regarding tyre knowledge, since most of the people own the OTHER German brand cars
But we'll see.You might bet better off posting thsi question at...:
Mbworld....
http://forums.mbworld.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=e5d7315bdce72a0ca4f87f79e48b8c04&forumid=46
AMG Owners club:
http://forum-international.amg-owners-club.org/board.php?boardid=29&sid=e36da34d906bd329949c10db24b2a9c0
Re: Tyres
Firstly, hello from a fellow Uk'er, or Mancunian
Sorrt to say, but you might not get a good response regarding tyre knowledge, since most of the people own the OTHER German brand cars But we'll see.
You might bet better off posting thsi question at...:
Mbworld....
http://forums.mbworld.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=e5d7315bdce72a0ca4f87f79e48b8c04&forumid=46
AMG Owners club:
http://forum-international.amg-owners-club.org/board.php?boardid=29&sid=e36da34d906bd329949c10db24b2a9c0
Sorrt to say, but you might not get a good response regarding tyre knowledge, since most of the people own the OTHER German brand cars
But we'll see.You might bet better off posting thsi question at...:
Mbworld....
http://forums.mbworld.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=e5d7315bdce72a0ca4f87f79e48b8c04&forumid=46
AMG Owners club:
http://forum-international.amg-owners-club.org/board.php?boardid=29&sid=e36da34d906bd329949c10db24b2a9c0
Re: Tyres
Quote:
///AMG Mercedes said:
Firstly, hello from a fellow Uk'er, or Mancunian
Sorrt to say, but you might not get a good response regarding tyre knowledge, since most of the people own the OTHER German brand cars
You might bet better off posting thsi question at...:
Mbworld....
http://forums.mbworld.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=e5d7315bdce72a0ca4f87f79e48b8c04&forumid=46
AMG Owners club:
http://forum-international.amg-owners-club.org/board.php?boardid=29&sid=e36da34d906bd329949c10db24b2a9c0
So that's where you've been spending your time, Bilal.
I noticed you hadn't been around so often recently.
Re: Tyres
Quote:
///AMG Mercedes said:
Firstly, hello from a fellow Uk'er, or Mancunian
Sorrt to say, but you might not get a good response regarding tyre knowledge, since most of the people own the OTHER German brand cars
You might bet better off posting thsi question at...:
Mbworld....
http://forums.mbworld.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=e5d7315bdce72a0ca4f87f79e48b8c04&forumid=46
AMG Owners club:
http://forum-international.amg-owners-club.org/board.php?boardid=29&sid=e36da34d906bd329949c10db24b2a9c0
So that's where you've been spending your time, Bilal.
I noticed you hadn't been around so often recently.
Re: Tyres
Quote:
///AMG Mercedes said:
Fritz I'm always here, more often than you'd like
Wasn't any good AMG stuff to post recently so thats why....
You misjudge me!
Why should I have anything against you being around.
This would be a pretty boring forum if everyone lurked, and nobody posted.
Re: Tyres
Quote:
///AMG Mercedes said:
Fritz I'm always here, more often than you'd like
Wasn't any good AMG stuff to post recently so thats why....
You misjudge me!
Why should I have anything against you being around.
This would be a pretty boring forum if everyone lurked, and nobody posted.
Re: Tyres
Quote:
bloater said:
Has anyone run the E55 on anything other than the factory issue Contis?
Changing to P4 Rosso transforms Porsches with sport suspension and 18 inch alloys. Would a similar change benefit the x55 cars?
I'm not sure I understand your post but you have to keep two things in mind:
1. the E55 is pretty heavy and can't be compared to Porsche cars, not even to the heaviest 911, the 996 Turbo Cab.
2. the factory E55 tires have a M-classificaton, indicating that this is a special tire developped for a specific Mercedes model and it also indicates the this M0 tire will have the SAME compound mixture/tread/etc. over the whole production period, no matter if now, in one year or in two years.
That said, of course you can use other tires for your E55.
But forget about the 300 kph speed raise (most tires would probably "desintegrate" or blow up sooner or later due to the weight and suspension setup, even if approved to 300 kph and more) and don't make complaints about possible surprises on wet streets, fully loaded car or even on the track.
The tire is the most important part of your car, like it or not.
It decides about life or death in some cases.
Don't play around with tires, high performance cars are way too complicated nowadays to be able to find a better overall setup with different tires. You could gain some performance on dry pavement but at the same time you could sacrifice a lot more.
Re: Tyres
Quote:
bloater said:
Has anyone run the E55 on anything other than the factory issue Contis?
Changing to P4 Rosso transforms Porsches with sport suspension and 18 inch alloys. Would a similar change benefit the x55 cars?
I'm not sure I understand your post but you have to keep two things in mind:
1. the E55 is pretty heavy and can't be compared to Porsche cars, not even to the heaviest 911, the 996 Turbo Cab.
2. the factory E55 tires have a M-classificaton, indicating that this is a special tire developped for a specific Mercedes model and it also indicates the this M0 tire will have the SAME compound mixture/tread/etc. over the whole production period, no matter if now, in one year or in two years.
That said, of course you can use other tires for your E55.
But forget about the 300 kph speed raise (most tires would probably "desintegrate" or blow up sooner or later due to the weight and suspension setup, even if approved to 300 kph and more) and don't make complaints about possible surprises on wet streets, fully loaded car or even on the track.
The tire is the most important part of your car, like it or not.
It decides about life or death in some cases.
Don't play around with tires, high performance cars are way too complicated nowadays to be able to find a better overall setup with different tires. You could gain some performance on dry pavement but at the same time you could sacrifice a lot more.
Re: Tyres
There are a number of new tyres, not previously available that will significantly increase the handling, wet and dry of the E55. The important thing to check is the load rating. The new Michelin PS2 beats the Conti hands down, heck even the PS1 was an improvement. Virtually all tyre manufacturers have an extra load tyre, which is what the E55 requires.
If you goto a web site such as www.tirerack.com you can see what tyres are available, it also lists technical specs of the tyres including load ratings etc.
If you goto a web site such as www.tirerack.com you can see what tyres are available, it also lists technical specs of the tyres including load ratings etc.
Re: Tyres
There are a number of new tyres, not previously available that will significantly increase the handling, wet and dry of the E55. The important thing to check is the load rating. The new Michelin PS2 beats the Conti hands down, heck even the PS1 was an improvement. Virtually all tyre manufacturers have an extra load tyre, which is what the E55 requires.
If you goto a web site such as www.tirerack.com you can see what tyres are available, it also lists technical specs of the tyres including load ratings etc.
If you goto a web site such as www.tirerack.com you can see what tyres are available, it also lists technical specs of the tyres including load ratings etc.
Re: Tyres
Quote:
stephens said:
There are a number of new tyres, not previously available that will significantly increase the handling, wet and dry of the E55. The important thing to check is the load rating. The new Michelin PS2 beats the Conti hands down, heck even the PS1 was an improvement. Virtually all tyre manufacturers have an extra load tyre, which is what the E55 requires.
If you goto a web site such as www.tirerack.com you can see what tyres are available, it also lists technical specs of the tyres including load ratings etc.
Right, the load rating is very important. But we're also talking suspension setups like camber, etc. And this can change a lot of things, one reason why Mercedes decided to go with specific tires for the E55, wearing the M0 classification. It is pretty similar to Porsche where people usually try to "outsmart" Porsche engineers by mounting tires which aren't officially approved. Same or better speed and load index? Same size? Well, must be good. It isn't.
It might provide better traction on dry pavement but show a lousy behaviour in rain. It might be a great performer and good in rain but at high asphalt temperatures resulting in even higher tire temperatures, the tire starts to loose traction.
There are so many different things regarding tires, you have to be an expert...or a car manufacturer, to know what is best for a certain car.
Re: Tyres
Quote:
stephens said:
There are a number of new tyres, not previously available that will significantly increase the handling, wet and dry of the E55. The important thing to check is the load rating. The new Michelin PS2 beats the Conti hands down, heck even the PS1 was an improvement. Virtually all tyre manufacturers have an extra load tyre, which is what the E55 requires.
If you goto a web site such as www.tirerack.com you can see what tyres are available, it also lists technical specs of the tyres including load ratings etc.
Right, the load rating is very important. But we're also talking suspension setups like camber, etc. And this can change a lot of things, one reason why Mercedes decided to go with specific tires for the E55, wearing the M0 classification. It is pretty similar to Porsche where people usually try to "outsmart" Porsche engineers by mounting tires which aren't officially approved. Same or better speed and load index? Same size? Well, must be good. It isn't.
It might provide better traction on dry pavement but show a lousy behaviour in rain. It might be a great performer and good in rain but at high asphalt temperatures resulting in even higher tire temperatures, the tire starts to loose traction.
There are so many different things regarding tires, you have to be an expert...or a car manufacturer, to know what is best for a certain car.
The typre approval system is anti-competitive
Quote:
RC said:
Right, the load rating is very important. But we're also talking suspension setups like camber, etc. And this can change a lot of things, one reason why Mercedes decided to go with specific tires for the E55, wearing the M0 classification. It is pretty similar to Porsche where people usually try to "outsmart" Porsche engineers by mounting tires which aren't officially approved. Same or better speed and load index? Same size? Well, must be good. It isn't.
It might provide better traction on dry pavement but show a lousy behaviour in rain. It might be a great performer and good in rain but at high asphalt temperatures resulting in even higher tire temperatures, the tire starts to loose traction.
There are so many different things regarding tires, you have to be an expert...or a car manufacturer, to know what is best for a certain car.
The manufacturer approval system also allows the manufacturer to limit competition to a certain select group of tyre manufacturers.
What is one of the criteria for receiving an auto manufacturer's certification? Why, it is agreeing to supply tyres on extremely favourable terms to the auto manufacturer. Why will a tyre manufacturer do this? Because it knows that if it does not agree to supply tyres on such favourable terms then it will be locked out of the lucrative replacement tyre market for that auto manufacturer's cars. How many tyre manufacturers will win approval? Why just enough to assure the auto manufacturer of a continuous supply of cheap tyres.
Will an auto manufacturer consider adding a tyre to the approved list after production of the car even if that tyre manufacturer demonstrates that its tyres are superior? Of course not as there is no point. Ergo, tyre technology gets locked in at the level it was at when the car was first produced.
It might be necessary for an auto manufacturer to approve specific tyres for its vehicles for safety reasons but it is clear that the industry is currently using this for anti-competitive reasons.
Christian, I think you might be correct as relates to the E55 given the special weight issues with that car. And so far my Porsche has only had approved tyres on it. But for my Audi and for many other cars out there I wouldn't think twice about going outside of the approved tyre system.
Stephen
The typre approval system is anti-competitive
Quote:
RC said:
Right, the load rating is very important. But we're also talking suspension setups like camber, etc. And this can change a lot of things, one reason why Mercedes decided to go with specific tires for the E55, wearing the M0 classification. It is pretty similar to Porsche where people usually try to "outsmart" Porsche engineers by mounting tires which aren't officially approved. Same or better speed and load index? Same size? Well, must be good. It isn't.
It might provide better traction on dry pavement but show a lousy behaviour in rain. It might be a great performer and good in rain but at high asphalt temperatures resulting in even higher tire temperatures, the tire starts to loose traction.
There are so many different things regarding tires, you have to be an expert...or a car manufacturer, to know what is best for a certain car.
The manufacturer approval system also allows the manufacturer to limit competition to a certain select group of tyre manufacturers.
What is one of the criteria for receiving an auto manufacturer's certification? Why, it is agreeing to supply tyres on extremely favourable terms to the auto manufacturer. Why will a tyre manufacturer do this? Because it knows that if it does not agree to supply tyres on such favourable terms then it will be locked out of the lucrative replacement tyre market for that auto manufacturer's cars. How many tyre manufacturers will win approval? Why just enough to assure the auto manufacturer of a continuous supply of cheap tyres.
Will an auto manufacturer consider adding a tyre to the approved list after production of the car even if that tyre manufacturer demonstrates that its tyres are superior? Of course not as there is no point. Ergo, tyre technology gets locked in at the level it was at when the car was first produced.
It might be necessary for an auto manufacturer to approve specific tyres for its vehicles for safety reasons but it is clear that the industry is currently using this for anti-competitive reasons.
Christian, I think you might be correct as relates to the E55 given the special weight issues with that car. And so far my Porsche has only had approved tyres on it. But for my Audi and for many other cars out there I wouldn't think twice about going outside of the approved tyre system.
Stephen
Re: Tyres
Some fair points. Living in Manchester means top speed performance is not relevant, but as the local rainfall pattern is at best depressing it is grip in the wet that I would like to optimise. True the AMG people have more knowledge than we can ever dream of, but they are also restrained by corporate management. Given a choise of 2 tyres, 1 awesome in the wet, good in the dry, not so clever at 250kmh, the other guarenteed to hold 250 all day, all night, I suspect they will choose the latter for the home market. In other parts of the world it may not be the best solution.
Re: Tyres
Some fair points. Living in Manchester means top speed performance is not relevant, but as the local rainfall pattern is at best depressing it is grip in the wet that I would like to optimise. True the AMG people have more knowledge than we can ever dream of, but they are also restrained by corporate management. Given a choise of 2 tyres, 1 awesome in the wet, good in the dry, not so clever at 250kmh, the other guarenteed to hold 250 all day, all night, I suspect they will choose the latter for the home market. In other parts of the world it may not be the best solution.
Re: The typre approval system is anti-competitive
Quote:
FixedWing said:
Christian, I think you might be correct as relates to the E55 given the special weight issues with that car. And so far my Porsche has only had approved tyres on it. But for my Audi and for many other cars out there I wouldn't think twice about going outside of the approved tyre system.
Stephen, if a car manufacturer approves only a certain brand without a certain specification like M0 on the E55 or N0, N1, N2 and so on with Porsche, I agree with you.
But Mercedes uses at least half a dozend of tire manufacturers for the E-class, so why would they deny approval for the E55 only?
Same with Porsche: you have Bridgestones, Contis, Michelin, Pirelli and even Yokohamas which are approved for certain models. But all come with the N0, N1, N2 rating and some are approved for car X and some for car Y. So it is pretty clear that this doesn't have anything to do with cutting out the competition but to offer a certain safety standard for their cars.
I was able to watch a Porsche tire test on a test track outside Germany a while ago and I was so impressed with how they tested the various tires, incredible patience and precision. Porsche's favorite for the 997 and Cayenne seems to be Michelin right now but they also use Pirelli, Bridgestone and Contis. I mean they could make it simple: just approve the brand name and maybe a specific tire type and that's it. Instead they put a lot of work in certifying certain tires for their cars. These tires (N0, N1, N2, etc.) are not only different regarding compound mixture, tread structure, etc. but also guaranteed by the manufacturer that for example tire XY with N0 stays the SAME (no changes whatsoever during production!) over the whole production period. Pretty impressive if you ask me and it deserves thinking it through before going for a non-certified tire on a high performance car. Due to the rear engine setup, the 911 is very sensitive to tire setups and the wrong tire can mess up things a lot, especially in extreme driving situations.
On the E55 it is my understanding that the M0 has something to do with top speed (the Conti is approved up to 300 kph on the E55), weight, traction and side grip on wet pavement.
Re: The typre approval system is anti-competitive
Quote:
FixedWing said:
Christian, I think you might be correct as relates to the E55 given the special weight issues with that car. And so far my Porsche has only had approved tyres on it. But for my Audi and for many other cars out there I wouldn't think twice about going outside of the approved tyre system.
Stephen, if a car manufacturer approves only a certain brand without a certain specification like M0 on the E55 or N0, N1, N2 and so on with Porsche, I agree with you.
But Mercedes uses at least half a dozend of tire manufacturers for the E-class, so why would they deny approval for the E55 only?
Same with Porsche: you have Bridgestones, Contis, Michelin, Pirelli and even Yokohamas which are approved for certain models. But all come with the N0, N1, N2 rating and some are approved for car X and some for car Y. So it is pretty clear that this doesn't have anything to do with cutting out the competition but to offer a certain safety standard for their cars.
I was able to watch a Porsche tire test on a test track outside Germany a while ago and I was so impressed with how they tested the various tires, incredible patience and precision. Porsche's favorite for the 997 and Cayenne seems to be Michelin right now but they also use Pirelli, Bridgestone and Contis. I mean they could make it simple: just approve the brand name and maybe a specific tire type and that's it. Instead they put a lot of work in certifying certain tires for their cars. These tires (N0, N1, N2, etc.) are not only different regarding compound mixture, tread structure, etc. but also guaranteed by the manufacturer that for example tire XY with N0 stays the SAME (no changes whatsoever during production!) over the whole production period. Pretty impressive if you ask me and it deserves thinking it through before going for a non-certified tire on a high performance car. Due to the rear engine setup, the 911 is very sensitive to tire setups and the wrong tire can mess up things a lot, especially in extreme driving situations.
On the E55 it is my understanding that the M0 has something to do with top speed (the Conti is approved up to 300 kph on the E55), weight, traction and side grip on wet pavement.
Re: The typre approval system is anti-competitive
Quote:
FixedWing said:
The manufacturer approval system also allows the (car) manufacturer to limit competition to a certain select group of tyre manufacturers.
This is undeniably a side-effect of the approval system for tires. But that does not necessarily mean that there are not also perfectly good reasons for this system which are solely intended to benefit the car buyer. For instance, in terms of his safety.
Where high performance cars are concerned, the combined effects of the loads and speeds on the tires are such that I personally would prefer to know that somebody who really knows what he is doing has been there before me under controlled conditions, and checked that the tires can take it.
The fact that such cars have a very restricted number of approved tires could be looked upon as an indication that other brands or types of tire got filtered out during the approval process.
Quote:
FixedWing said:
Will an auto manufacturer consider adding a tyre to the approved list after production of the car even if that tyre manufacturer demonstrates that its tyres are superior? Of course not as there is no point. Ergo, tyre technology gets locked in at the level it was at when the car was first produced.
In fact, there is a point. No manufacturer of a high performance car could afford to so blithely ignore the advantage provided by a significantly superior tire, if there really was one out there.
So much work and money will have gone into designing, developing and manufacturing a high performance sportscar chassis that the difference in costs for comparable tires between competing brands would generally pale into insignificance.
In a lot of instances, the tires praised to the skies by their fans are just "one-trick ponies", for example, great on a warm day on a perfectly dry track, but totally unacceptable as soon as they get into the wet, temperature drops, or they have become somewhat worn and "heat-cycled".
Car manufacturers only approve tires which cover an acceptably broad range of the conditions they are expected to be subjected to, or - in isolated instances - they get car buyers to sign waivers confirming that they expressly acknowledge the limitations of the product they are buying.
Re: The typre approval system is anti-competitive
Quote:
FixedWing said:
The manufacturer approval system also allows the (car) manufacturer to limit competition to a certain select group of tyre manufacturers.
This is undeniably a side-effect of the approval system for tires. But that does not necessarily mean that there are not also perfectly good reasons for this system which are solely intended to benefit the car buyer. For instance, in terms of his safety.
Where high performance cars are concerned, the combined effects of the loads and speeds on the tires are such that I personally would prefer to know that somebody who really knows what he is doing has been there before me under controlled conditions, and checked that the tires can take it.
The fact that such cars have a very restricted number of approved tires could be looked upon as an indication that other brands or types of tire got filtered out during the approval process.
Quote:
FixedWing said:
Will an auto manufacturer consider adding a tyre to the approved list after production of the car even if that tyre manufacturer demonstrates that its tyres are superior? Of course not as there is no point. Ergo, tyre technology gets locked in at the level it was at when the car was first produced.
In fact, there is a point. No manufacturer of a high performance car could afford to so blithely ignore the advantage provided by a significantly superior tire, if there really was one out there.
So much work and money will have gone into designing, developing and manufacturing a high performance sportscar chassis that the difference in costs for comparable tires between competing brands would generally pale into insignificance.
In a lot of instances, the tires praised to the skies by their fans are just "one-trick ponies", for example, great on a warm day on a perfectly dry track, but totally unacceptable as soon as they get into the wet, temperature drops, or they have become somewhat worn and "heat-cycled".
Car manufacturers only approve tires which cover an acceptably broad range of the conditions they are expected to be subjected to, or - in isolated instances - they get car buyers to sign waivers confirming that they expressly acknowledge the limitations of the product they are buying.
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