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    Nov 11, 2003 10:00:48 PM

    RCA
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    Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    The latest rumor indicates that AMG plans to ban the supercharger from their engines, introducing a normally aspirated 6.0 V8 with the practically same engine power as the current supercharged V8 engines.
    For the top models, AMG is rumored to use the bi-turbo charged V12 and maybe even a completely new bi-turbo charged V8(!).

    Nov 12, 2003 10:59:30 AM

    Bilal
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    I heard the 5.5 V8K will be replaced by a 6.3 V8 with "over 600bhp" but how can AMG make such a powerful NA engne, surely power and more importantly "drehmoment" will come from a Supercharger?

    And then the top of the range TTV12 will have 700bhp+. And that got me thinking back to the old NA 5.5 V8 that AMG had in the W210, sure it was a 55, but if you wanted more power, the top of the range AMG came with about a 100bhp more. 354bhps vs. 44?bhp(6.3 NA V12.)

    Now we have the 55 V8K, which has 500bhp and a little bit more, and the top of the range AMG has 100bhp more again.

    So......if the next generation "63's" have 600bhp, then 700bhp seems to be adequate for the top of the range, don't you agree?



    Moreover, how AMG can make such a 6.0 V8 with about 130bhp+ more than a 5.5 V8 NA? Especially since Mercedes hasn't made any such engines lately. I sincerely hope we don't have Ferrari/BMW like engines in AMG cars, these cars will be slower, due to nowhere near as much torque, and more importantly, if it does come (torque), it will be higher up in the rev ranges, meaning, overtaking, and traffic light GP's, will be history for AMG

    Old E V12 with 574bhp, 7.3 V12, 775NM Torque?
    0-100mph in 11.2 seconds


    New E55 AMG with 500bhp, 5.5 V8K , 700NM torque lower down...0-100mph in 10 seconds flat.


    I surely hope Torque will not be lost.

    Nov 12, 2003 10:59:30 AM

    Bilal
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    I heard the 5.5 V8K will be replaced by a 6.3 V8 with "over 600bhp" but how can AMG make such a powerful NA engne, surely power and more importantly "drehmoment" will come from a Supercharger?

    And then the top of the range TTV12 will have 700bhp+. And that got me thinking back to the old NA 5.5 V8 that AMG had in the W210, sure it was a 55, but if you wanted more power, the top of the range AMG came with about a 100bhp more. 354bhps vs. 44?bhp(6.3 NA V12.)

    Now we have the 55 V8K, which has 500bhp and a little bit more, and the top of the range AMG has 100bhp more again.

    So......if the next generation "63's" have 600bhp, then 700bhp seems to be adequate for the top of the range, don't you agree?



    Moreover, how AMG can make such a 6.0 V8 with about 130bhp+ more than a 5.5 V8 NA? Especially since Mercedes hasn't made any such engines lately. I sincerely hope we don't have Ferrari/BMW like engines in AMG cars, these cars will be slower, due to nowhere near as much torque, and more importantly, if it does come (torque), it will be higher up in the rev ranges, meaning, overtaking, and traffic light GP's, will be history for AMG

    Old E V12 with 574bhp, 7.3 V12, 775NM Torque?
    0-100mph in 11.2 seconds


    New E55 AMG with 500bhp, 5.5 V8K , 700NM torque lower down...0-100mph in 10 seconds flat.


    I surely hope Torque will not be lost.

    Nov 12, 2003 6:04:28 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Bilal

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    Sorry to disappoint you Bilal but the power figures you mentioned are not only a rumor, they're absolutely not coming.
    No AMG Mercedes will have more power than the SLR as long as SLR production goes on.
    I also heard that DC wants to stop the power race due to liability and cost, so power will be probably limited to maximum 560 HP for all new "regular" AMG models coming out for the next 3 years.
    The normally aspirated engine which might replace the supercharged V8 is rumored to be a 6.0 litre engine with 4 valves and direct fuel injection. Power is absolutely the same as on the current supercharged V8 engines with some possibility to raise it up to 560 HP.

    Nov 12, 2003 6:04:28 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Bilal

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    Sorry to disappoint you Bilal but the power figures you mentioned are not only a rumor, they're absolutely not coming.
    No AMG Mercedes will have more power than the SLR as long as SLR production goes on.
    I also heard that DC wants to stop the power race due to liability and cost, so power will be probably limited to maximum 560 HP for all new "regular" AMG models coming out for the next 3 years.
    The normally aspirated engine which might replace the supercharged V8 is rumored to be a 6.0 litre engine with 4 valves and direct fuel injection. Power is absolutely the same as on the current supercharged V8 engines with some possibility to raise it up to 560 HP.

    Nov 13, 2003 10:35:59 AM

    Bilal
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    yeah, but what about torque?

    Damn the SLR! Stopping Mercedes HP wars. Let's see what AMG says about this!

    Nov 13, 2003 10:35:59 AM

    Bilal
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    yeah, but what about torque?

    Damn the SLR! Stopping Mercedes HP wars. Let's see what AMG says about this!

    Nov 13, 2003 10:46:50 AM

    CFM
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    Reply to: Bilal

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    Customers will be able to attain a power upgrade to their SLR within a year or so as well as a sports exhaust system.
    I have no exact HP/Torque figures as of now.

    Nov 13, 2003 10:46:50 AM

    CFM
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    Reply to: Bilal

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    Customers will be able to attain a power upgrade to their SLR within a year or so as well as a sports exhaust system.
    I have no exact HP/Torque figures as of now.

    Nov 15, 2003 1:56:21 AM

    M5er
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    Reply to: CFM

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    A normally aspirated engine would be a lot nicer than the supercharged one. I hope it comes sometime next year, probably for Paris 04'.

    Nov 15, 2003 1:56:21 AM

    M5er
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    Reply to: CFM

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    A normally aspirated engine would be a lot nicer than the supercharged one. I hope it comes sometime next year, probably for Paris 04'.

    Nov 15, 2003 8:21:21 AM

    amgB
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    Reply to: M5er

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    Is there any word on the torque of the new engine? I just picked up my 04 E55 and just past 1100 miles. I am slowly opening up the throttle. Coming from a Lexus GS400, the E55 seems fast at 3K rpm. But the last 2 weeks, I have really been getting use to it and getting spoiled of the fact that I don't have to pass 3200 rpm to pass almost everybody on the road.

    My dream car now seems to be the E-Class with the v12 biturbo engine unregistricted. (aka 900 lbs of torque if they ever get the transmission to handle that) I heard the V12 will not fit safely in the E-Class. So, will the CLS have a CLS 65 AMG? If so, I might consider that.

    Thanks for whatever info you guys have. I have to start saving for the next AMG lease car.

    amgB

    Nov 15, 2003 8:21:21 AM

    amgB
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    Reply to: M5er

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    Is there any word on the torque of the new engine? I just picked up my 04 E55 and just past 1100 miles. I am slowly opening up the throttle. Coming from a Lexus GS400, the E55 seems fast at 3K rpm. But the last 2 weeks, I have really been getting use to it and getting spoiled of the fact that I don't have to pass 3200 rpm to pass almost everybody on the road.

    My dream car now seems to be the E-Class with the v12 biturbo engine unregistricted. (aka 900 lbs of torque if they ever get the transmission to handle that) I heard the V12 will not fit safely in the E-Class. So, will the CLS have a CLS 65 AMG? If so, I might consider that.

    Thanks for whatever info you guys have. I have to start saving for the next AMG lease car.

    amgB

    Nov 15, 2003 9:39:06 AM

    RCA
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    Reply to: M5er

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    Quote:
    A normally aspirated engine would be a lot nicer than the supercharged one. I hope it comes sometime next year, probably for Paris 04'.



    Why would a normally aspirated engine would be nicer? Just curious?

    Nov 15, 2003 9:39:06 AM

    RCA
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    Reply to: M5er

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    Quote:
    A normally aspirated engine would be a lot nicer than the supercharged one. I hope it comes sometime next year, probably for Paris 04'.



    Why would a normally aspirated engine would be nicer? Just curious?

    Nov 15, 2003 9:45:14 AM

    Bilal
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    It'll please the BMW fans.

    Nov 15, 2003 9:45:14 AM

    Bilal
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    It'll please the BMW fans.

    Nov 15, 2003 9:50:11 AM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Bilal

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    Quote:
    It'll please the BMW fans.



    The funny part is: there are strong rumors that BMW will use turbo charged engines in the future.

    Nov 15, 2003 9:50:11 AM

    RCA
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    RC
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    Reply to: Bilal

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    Quote:
    It'll please the BMW fans.



    The funny part is: there are strong rumors that BMW will use turbo charged engines in the future.

    Nov 15, 2003 10:13:52 AM

    Bilal
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    Well, what goes around comes around

    No way will any company match the torque outputs of Mercedes engines without F/I.

    Nov 15, 2003 10:13:52 AM

    Bilal
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    Well, what goes around comes around

    No way will any company match the torque outputs of Mercedes engines without F/I.

    Nov 15, 2003 7:01:43 PM

    M5er
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    Reply to: Bilal

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    A normally aspirated engine would be nicer mainly because it will have a nice and smooth power delivery (the E55 had smooth power delivery when I drove it, but so many people I know that have W211 E55's often expreience the oppisite). Aside from that I just love normally aspirated engines- their natraul, not artifical. I just can't wait till the E60 M5 gets here! I'll be smoking E55's all day long!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Nov 15, 2003 7:01:43 PM

    M5er
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    Reply to: Bilal

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    A normally aspirated engine would be nicer mainly because it will have a nice and smooth power delivery (the E55 had smooth power delivery when I drove it, but so many people I know that have W211 E55's often expreience the oppisite). Aside from that I just love normally aspirated engines- their natraul, not artifical. I just can't wait till the E60 M5 gets here! I'll be smoking E55's all day long!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Nov 15, 2003 9:12:52 PM

    RCA
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    RC
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    Reply to: M5er

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    Quote:
    A normally aspirated engine would be nicer mainly because it will have a nice and smooth power delivery (the E55 had smooth power delivery when I drove it, but so many people I know that have W211 E55's often expreience the oppisite). Aside from that I just love normally aspirated engines- their natraul, not artifical. I just can't wait till the E60 M5 gets here! I'll be smoking E55's all day long!!!!!!!!!!!!



    I don't agree (as you can imagine ). That brutal power feel, only super-/turbo charged engines can give you such a feeling. I also like the fact that super-/turbo charged engines can be easily tuned, especially turbo engines. I got 40-50 HP more out of my 996 Turbo just with a simple software mod (do that with a M3 or M5 ).
    And last time my car was at AMG, they measured the torque (I had a little power problem and they fixed it by exchanging the supercharger distribution belt and some other parts) and it was way over factory specs. Tell me: does the new M5 have almost 800 Nm of torque?

    Don't be too enthusiastic about the new M5. The weight is rumored to be in the 1850-1900 kg range, 0-200 kph performance is rumored to be in the 15 seconds range which would be slightly slower than the E55. And when it comes to speeds over 200 kph... Oops, did I tell you that the new M5 is limited to 250 kph?
    I owned a M3 E36 many years ago and by that time, I smoked 993's and 964's and I loved it. But BMW has changed, their cars aren't to my gusto anymore. Even the E55 isn't what I call my dream car but at least it is as fast as a 996 Turbo on the straight line and I'm not limited to lame 250 kph top speed which is very important for me in Germany.
    But on the track, the new M5 will surely blow away the E55, no doubt about it. However...driving a heavy limousine on the track is somehow ridiculous. Personally, I'd be ashamed to take my E55 to the track but to each his own I guess.

    Nov 15, 2003 9:12:52 PM

    RCA
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    RC
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    Reply to: M5er

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    Quote:
    A normally aspirated engine would be nicer mainly because it will have a nice and smooth power delivery (the E55 had smooth power delivery when I drove it, but so many people I know that have W211 E55's often expreience the oppisite). Aside from that I just love normally aspirated engines- their natraul, not artifical. I just can't wait till the E60 M5 gets here! I'll be smoking E55's all day long!!!!!!!!!!!!



    I don't agree (as you can imagine ). That brutal power feel, only super-/turbo charged engines can give you such a feeling. I also like the fact that super-/turbo charged engines can be easily tuned, especially turbo engines. I got 40-50 HP more out of my 996 Turbo just with a simple software mod (do that with a M3 or M5 ).
    And last time my car was at AMG, they measured the torque (I had a little power problem and they fixed it by exchanging the supercharger distribution belt and some other parts) and it was way over factory specs. Tell me: does the new M5 have almost 800 Nm of torque?

    Don't be too enthusiastic about the new M5. The weight is rumored to be in the 1850-1900 kg range, 0-200 kph performance is rumored to be in the 15 seconds range which would be slightly slower than the E55. And when it comes to speeds over 200 kph... Oops, did I tell you that the new M5 is limited to 250 kph?
    I owned a M3 E36 many years ago and by that time, I smoked 993's and 964's and I loved it. But BMW has changed, their cars aren't to my gusto anymore. Even the E55 isn't what I call my dream car but at least it is as fast as a 996 Turbo on the straight line and I'm not limited to lame 250 kph top speed which is very important for me in Germany.
    But on the track, the new M5 will surely blow away the E55, no doubt about it. However...driving a heavy limousine on the track is somehow ridiculous. Personally, I'd be ashamed to take my E55 to the track but to each his own I guess.

    Nov 15, 2003 9:22:59 PM

    Justin
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    Reply to: M5er

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    Quote:
    A normally aspirated engine would be nicer mainly because it will have a nice and smooth power delivery (the E55 had smooth power delivery when I drove it, but so many people I know that have W211 E55's often expreience the oppisite). Aside from that I just love normally aspirated engines- their natraul, not artifical. I just can't wait till the E60 M5 gets here! I'll be smoking E55's all day long!!!!!!!!!!!!



    The 55k engine has a very smooth power delivery and the engagement of the supercharger is fairly seamless. What are your friend's experiencing exactly? Don't tell me you are referencing people from MBWorld.

    For this reason, I think BMW cannot build a proper luxury car. And really, when you buy something that has four doors and upwards of 1800kg, you are not buying a sports car. Who wants a luxury sedan that you really have to rev to get the most out of it? To build the M7 with that V10 is sort of ridiculous to me.

    RC,
    I wish U.S. AMG customers could receive the Affalterbach treatment. It is difficult for us to even get F1 Steering wheels and other simple items. I'm preaching to the choir here, but it is frustrating.

    Nov 15, 2003 9:22:59 PM

    Justin
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    Reply to: M5er

    Re: Engine Rumor...Death of the Supercharger?

    Quote:
    A normally aspirated engine would be nicer mainly because it will have a nice and smooth power delivery (the E55 had smooth power delivery when I drove it, but so many people I know that have W211 E55's often expreience the oppisite). Aside from that I just love normally aspirated engines- their natraul, not artifical. I just can't wait till the E60 M5 gets here! I'll be smoking E55's all day long!!!!!!!!!!!!



    The 55k engine has a very smooth power delivery and the engagement of the supercharger is fairly seamless. What are your friend's experiencing exactly? Don't tell me you are referencing people from MBWorld.

    For this reason, I think BMW cannot build a proper luxury car. And really, when you buy something that has four doors and upwards of 1800kg, you are not buying a sports car. Who wants a luxury sedan that you really have to rev to get the most out of it? To build the M7 with that V10 is sort of ridiculous to me.

    RC,
    I wish U.S. AMG customers could receive the Affalterbach treatment. It is difficult for us to even get F1 Steering wheels and other simple items. I'm preaching to the choir here, but it is frustrating.
     
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