Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 996 - Turbo Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Arbitration decision in PCCB case against Porsche

    There has just been released a very interesting arbitration decision in a PCCB case brought against Porsche. Porsche argued, and the arbitrator accepted, that if you exceed the legal speed limit in your Porsche then the warranty is void on the customer's US$200K GT2:

    PCCB Arbitration Results

    New levels of hypocrisy?

    Stephen

    Re: Arbitration decision in PCCB case against Porsche

    yep, very sad indeed. it's a real shame the CGT doesn't have better brakes as an option. i'm not remotely interested in having them in present form on any p-car.

    our first clue should have been that you see NO p-cars racing with them. turns out they're just a p-car concoction not too dissimilar to $750 footwell lighting.

    Re: Arbitration decision in PCCB case against Porsche

    Maybe the CGT has enough brake-duct air-flow to make PCCB work for it?

    It's kind of hard to see if it does from this pic I took at Geneva:



    Re: Arbitration decision in PCCB case against Porsche

    I've asked my dealer to check if the GT will come with the same kind of PCCB as the ones we currently know... Will let you know asap.

    Greetings,
    --Pierre

    Re: Arbitration decision in PCCB case against Porsche

    stephen,
    if you ever want to hear the other side of mark's case with porsche, PM me.

    This sounds like evil!


    If a car manufacturer can deny warranty benefits for
    exceeding the speed limit, then it guts all warranies of
    any value. Suppose a car is used at a Porsche Driver's ed.
    course. There *is* no speed limit. I suppose that the
    reason for this ruling would not apply.

    Re: the other side....

    Quote:
    stephen,
    if you ever want to hear the other side of mark's case with porsche, PM me.



    Hi Watt! Is there any reason it can't be posted? I'm sure
    we all would like to hear both sides.
    thanks,
    Joe

    Re: Arbitration decision in PCCB case against Porsche

    The PCCB brake system on the Carrera GT is completely different to that of the 996 Models with the PCCB system installed.

    1. The diameter of the disc is greater than that of the smaller system on the 996 models.(380mm vs 350mm)
    Thereby increasing its efficiency.

    2. The cooling system of the brakes is much more advanced and channels significantly more cooling air to the brakes than on the 996 models.

    3. Specially developed brake pads.

    Note: As with normal steel brake discs when you drive hard on the track their life expectancy is significantly shorter than during normal street driving conditions.




    Re: Arbitration decision in PCCB case against Porsche

    Quote:
    New levels of hypocrisy?

    Stephen



    This is nothing new and I personally don't know ANY car manufacturer who grants a warranty if their car is driven on the track, especially for obtaining best lap times or in a real racing event. Exception: driver ed events which are officially approved (or specifically marked as driver ed events) by the manufacturer of the car.

    I try to explain this thing for the past three or four years but nobody wants to listen. A short list of things which could (or certainly would) void the warranty:

    1. track racing, even for private pleasure as an amateur
    2. track racing events with the goal to obtain best lap times
    3. technical modifications like wheels, suspension systems, engine (incl. so called chip tuning and software mods, piggy back devices, etc.), exhaust systems, airflow system, sport airfilters, spoilers(because they can influence the cooling, air distribution to the engine/brakes, etc.) and so on.
    4. tires like semi-slicks or slicks, especially on 4WD models.

    Forget about them needing proof, bla bla bla. If you get involved in a serious warranty issue and they don't want to pay for it (ask your dealer what a 996 Turbo or GT3 engine costs, you get a shock!), you're busted. I remember clever people (mostly lawyers who own a Porsche themselves) who recommend to owners who are in trouble to fight for their rights but trust me, chances aren't good and it really isn't fun to own a car and have to fight at court for it over a period of a year or two. It isn't worth it, especially because Porsche can always say that they build the car, they know the technical specs and they define what is approved or not. Now try to fight them, you'll have a serious problem as many people encountered before.

    And may I make a personal comment: why should Porsche pay for damage done during track racing? They don't advertise the 996 or even the GT2 as race cars but as cars derived from a racing tradition. This doesn't mean they approve racing them and even provide warranty. And a last thing: buy a 996 GT3 RSR from Porsche Motorsport and then tell me what kind of warranty you have on this car. No race car manufacturer really gives a warranty and I think it is pretty clear why.

    Like it or not but the standard Porsche models (with the exception of the GT3 RSR or Cup/Supercup) are not race cars. Amen.

    Re: Arbitration decision in PCCB case against Porsche

    Very well put RC.

    Re: the other side....

    Quote:
    Quote:
    stephen,
    if you ever want to hear the other side of mark's case with porsche, PM me.



    Hi Watt! Is there any reason it can't be posted? I'm sure
    we all would like to hear both sides.
    thanks,
    Joe



    Joe,

    It can't as both Mark's and Porsche's confidentiality deserve protection.

    I will say that RC, in his last post, clearly identifies the main reasons why Mark lost his arbitration. Which particular reasons, I won't say in public.

    Thank you RC, as usual you have said what needed to be said. God Bless You

    Running dog..

    Quote:
    It can't as both Mark's and Porsche's confidentiality deserve protection.



    Sounds like someone doesn't follow the same moral code that you do What. Unless of course, you've become a Porsche employee? Director of miss-Information maybe?

    I'm impressed with how public you are as to your willingness to run around tattling little tails. Personally, if I was going to talk behind someone's back I'd at least try to hide the fact that I was doing so.

    Are you sure you aren't willing to tell, What? For what it is worth, Mark Rynolds' comment to me was "[y]ou can tell Watt, for me, that I'd love to hear Porsche's side of my case....." So Mark doesn't mind and Porsche obviously doesn't mind (as they told you) so go ahead What ... make our day.

    Stephen

    ps. Mark is not a member of this forum. He told me "I've tried to sign on to that forum 3 times now - and I've never been able to join it. Don't know why - just tried again this morning - no response back."

    Implied warranties ...

    Quote:
    They don't advertise the 996 or even the GT2 as race cars but as cars derived from a racing tradition.



    Christian,

    So far as the manufacturer's written warranty is concerned, what you say is certainly true. But there are still the implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose. Similar implied warranties exist in much of Europe.

    So then exactly what Porsche advertised the car for become key. Certainly they don't claim their street cars to be "race cars". But when you start considering whether they advertise them as capable of being used on a track, the picture becomes much more murky. I would argue that they do promote the car as being capable of being driven on the track. They promote the performance aspects of the car. They promote it as being engineered by race drivers at the Nürburgring. They even promote it based upon its lap times and how those times compare to other cars.

    Of course, these implied warranties aren't as extensive as would be the manufacturer's warranty. But they would cover a part that hadn't been properly designed or manufactured.

    Stephen

    Re: Implied warranties ...

    fixed wank,

    please keep your day job as head of the anti-PCCB can't drive lobby!!! it pays better and continually buffs your image.

    keep fryin' dem rotors!!!! between dem brakes you ruin and dose cops that keep bustin you, your lifestyle is never cost effective

    mark can contact me like anyone else; but he know what's what, right mark?

    and just like his devilish PCCB, fixed wank's girl started out looking great "before" on the the right, and after a few skilled applications from the fixed wank, she ended up looking "after" on the left. which looks worse, his rotors or his chick??? and no amount of Foster's will put fixed wank's rotors or chick back together again.... .... but, hey did Porsche warrantee that girl?

    such good fun!!!!!!

    Re: Implied warranties ...

    Quote:
    fixed wank,...



    Dear User,

    please try to keep a more civilized tone in your post.
    If you don't agree with a post from another User, use arguments.

    We also kindly ask you to refrain posting such pictures in the future.

    Thank you for your understanding.

    Re: Implied warranties ...

    no problem,
    vast fixed wing pccb conspiracy and i are old friends and combatants -- merely struggling to match his manners... shan't happen agian

    Re: Implied warranties ...

    Incredible...I knew Fossies had medicinal properties...but never knew they could fix colour blindness...what an improvement...Uluru (Ayers Rock if you will) is reddish brown in the left hand picture..and in the right switched to grey....dang Vitamin Bf....great stuff...keeps your humour Up.

    Back to the real topic

    No point in getting sidetracked here.

    So this is what Porsche GB says about the GT2:

    Quote:
    The new 911 GT2 is the embodiment of race-bred technology in a powerful, road-going vehicle. The Clubsport model is simply predestined for the racetrack. Key features of the new model include a bolt-in roll-over bar, a distinctive carbon-fibre rear spoiler and exterior mirrors and radiator ducts in carbon.



    http://content2.eu.porsche.com/prod/911/gt2.nsf/gbrenglish/gt2

    So what exactly does it mean to be "predestined for the racetrack"? If that isn't clear then I don't know what is. Porsche is obviously selling the GT2 as a track car! They say it in so many words.

    You cannot have your cake and eat it. If they want to sell a car based upon its track abilites then they need to accept that a certain number of those cars are going to find their way on to the track and that those customers are going to expect that the car is capable of doing what Porsche said it could do.

    Stephen

    Re: Back to the real topic

    "Predestined" doesn't mean immediately upon purchase. One day yes, but not today. Your quote also reads that the Clubsport model is the car predsestined for the track, the GT2 is specifically called a road car. You read implied use into what Porsche Marketing wrote to emphasise the heritage of the car.

    Re: Back to the real topic

    I love your new Avatar, Stephen (FixedWing)

    To get back to Porsche and their cars: race car manufacturers don't give any warranty for their cars. It is pretty common in the race car business. There is some kind of mutual understanding between the customer and race car manufacturer that a defective car has to be fixed but once it hits the track, there is no kind of warranty anymore.
    So why should Porsche provide a warranty for a street car used on the track, a car which actually isn't really prepared (technically and legally) for serious track racing. As far as I know, the warranty still stays in effect if you do a driver's ed on the track as long as it isn't used "to obtain fastest lap times" but I really can't see why Porsche should provide a warranty for a car being used for track racing if even race car manufacturers don't provide any warranty.

    Maybe Porsche should sell the GT3, the GT2 and the GT3 RS without warranty, would this make you happier?
    And read the instructions booklet which comes with any Porsche, they clearly state there that track racing might void the warranty.

    Re: Back to the real topic

    RC,

    this is why i get frustrated with fixed wing pccb conspiracy. he is on an emotional crusade to prove it's porsche's fault that he screwed up his brakes. reason does not obtain. the stereotypical American victim mentality eschews personal responsibility. again, my apologies for poking fun in excess of your standards.

    i quoted your excellent statement above btw on rennlist GT3 recently, and thought you might enjoy this:

    "Just thought I'd jump in on this.

    Bob R - I agree totally with your suggestion that braking earlier and more efficiently leads to a quicker lap time. Some of the comments on this thread seem to think that Porsche are almost being negligent or misleading in putting PCCB on their cars, when obviously it is driver error that is to blame for the decreased lifespan of PCCB rotors(discs) and pads.

    It seems that to me some of the contributors to the anti-PCCB lobby think that the best way to brake is to drive at maximum speed towards a bend, wait, wait, wait a bit more, pass the "normal" braking point, wait a bit more, and then STAND ON THE BRAKES AS HARD AS YOU CAN, AS IF YOU'RE TRYING TO RIP THE STEERING WHEEL OUT THE DASH. This is neither prudent and , as some of the guys have found out, economical.

    I have it on good authority that Porsche are looking into this nad have come to the conclusion that almost all the PCCB "failures" are down to user error (like trying to get the rotors white/red hot and diving in to the pits to get pictures of them, without cooling them off).

    Stop complaining and learn how to drive!

    (Putting on Nomex suit now!)


    __________________
    Brucie Bonus

    2004 GT3"


    all the best, watt



    Re: Back to the real topic

    Watt: You're really wrong on most braking situations. The optimal way to brake on a car with 4-wheel abs is to brake as late as possible (subject to car upset) and with as much pressure as possible to guarantee that all 4 wheels are in abs mode. I couldn't find Bob R's original post to dispute whatever he was saying.

    There should be no way you can "abuse" the brakes if you do this. If the brakes get too hot at the track, you should improve the cooling. If that doesn't work, you will probably have to pull the ceramics and go to the big reds.

    Based on your brake comment, maybe you need to don the nomex and learn how to drive.

    Re: Back to the real topic optimal braking...

    The fastest way around the track is to choose the right place
    to finish your braking at or near the turn-in point at the start
    of the corner, and hit that spot. Whether or not you have
    ABS, the fast way is to keep your foot on the throttle until
    the last instant you can to still reach your turn-in speed
    when you reach that end-of-braking spot, and then apply
    maximum available braking till you get to the turn-in speed
    at the turn-in marker.
    With ABS, it may be easy to maximum brake by simply
    standing on the pedal, and without ABS, you may have to
    have 'touch', but in either case the point is to generate as
    much negative G load as the tires will provide, from the start
    of braking until the turn-in point. This implies imparting
    the maximum possible thermal load on the disks from the start
    of braking till the turn-in. Starting braking any earlier, to be
    able to brake easier than the maximum the tire can supply,
    is slower and is a sad case if it's necessary.
    If disk damage is caused by a lack of cooling air flow then
    this need should be documented, and cool-down laps are a
    good important thing. But: if the disk is damaged by maximum
    heat load even when it is getting the cooling flow provided
    when the car is moving, then it's a disk/airflow design problem.
    In fact, I'm puzzled... I can't see that it's a problem with
    a lack of cooldown, because the thermal strain is *lower*
    if something is left to cool slowly. If something is very hot
    and you apply lots of cooling to the external surface, the
    temperature gradient from surface to inside is *higher*.
    I suspect the problem is either simple abrasion damage
    causing spalling rather than smooth 'machining', or that
    the disk simply can't handle the amount of heat it gets under
    heavy load, and is damaged when it gets that hot, regardless
    of how quickly or slowly it is cooled down. If this is the case
    then the disk either needs more cooling or more size to
    prevent it ever getting that hot, or the material needs to be
    improved to survive the temps and temp-gradients it is being
    exposed to.

    Joe

    "stereotypical American victim mentality"

    Quote:
    this is why i get frustrated with fixed wing pccb conspiracy. he is on an emotional crusade to prove it's porsche's fault that he screwed up his brakes. reason does not obtain. the stereotypical American victim mentality eschews personal responsibility.



    My position is simply that there is a design defect in the PCCB system as sold by Porsche and that Porsche is responsible for the products that they sell. If it is defective then they should fix it. Now how do you get "stereotypical American victim mentality" from that?

    And by the way Watt, photos of big guys with fat bellies or obese women in the doggie position and talk of "wanking" my wife does not equate to reasoned debate. So far, every one of my posts has been logically based.

    Stephen

    Imlied warranties vs. the written warranty

    Christian,

    Thanx for the complements on the Avatar. I must admit, I'm rather partial to it myself. For those interested, the original photo can be found here:

    St. Gotthard Pass, Switzerland

    Let me ask you a question Christian. If Porsche were to sell a pure race car with a stated specification that it would hit 8000 RPM and you were to buy it but then the first time you took it on the track revved the engine to 6000 RPM it exploded, would you think that Porsche should be required to repair and replace the engines and to make it perform as promised? And not only you, but every other driver found the same thing. And experts were to look at the engines and determine that none of them were capable of hitting 8000 RPM and all would explode at 6000 ROM. So there was no question that the problem was a manufacturing defect and not normal wear and tear.

    Most people would. The only difference I see between my example and PCCB's is in the certainty that the brakes are defective. We continue to argue that point here with some saying that they are not defective and others saying that they are.

    But if, ultimately, the brakes are determined to be defective, then it won't be a case of them failing through normal use. Rather, it will be the case that they were not designed to perform as promised by Porsche. And yes, that is the manufacturer's responsibility.

    I think that the confusion here is between the manufacturer's written warranty and the warranties implied in law to every transaction. The manufacturer is basically free to write anything it wishes into its written warranty. But it is often not free to modify those warranties implied in law (even though it usually tries).

    No question that what you say is true for the manufacturer's written warranty. But when a manufacturer describes a vehicle as being capable of doing certain things and then it does not do those things then the law will force the manufacturer to stand behind its representations no matter how hard it tries to get out of them. This is true for a race car, a track car or just a street car.

    Manufacturers will cover a certain amount of normal wear and tear on a vehicle in their written warranties. They do this for marketing reasons as much as anything. The implied warranties would not cover this. To invoke the implied warranties it is necessary to prove that the goods were designed or manufactured incorrectly in relationship to what they were supposed to do. There is no written warranty on a race car. But even a race car is covered by the implied warranties!

    Stephen

    Re: Back to the real topic

    Quote:
    Watt: You're really wrong on most braking situations. The optimal way to brake on a car with 4-wheel abs is to brake as late as possible (subject to car upset) and with as much pressure as possible to guarantee that all 4 wheels are in abs mode. I couldn't find Bob R's original post to dispute whatever he was saying.

    There should be no way you can "abuse" the brakes if you do this. If the brakes get too hot at the track, you should improve the cooling. If that doesn't work, you will probably have to pull the ceramics and go to the big reds.




    I agree with the technical part but we shouldn't get personal.

    Re: Imlied warranties vs. the written warranty

    Stephen (FixedWing), I agree that Porsche needs to advertise their products a little bit differently.
    But unfortunately I think that this kind of advertisement is exactly what they need (and want), to make buyers think that they're actually buying a real race car and not a sports car. I can't say it too well in English but I think you understand what I want to say.
    So maybe Porsche ads regarding their cars and the PCCB can be easily "misunderstood" and maybe customers bought their cars and PCCB based on such a "misunderstanding".
    I know that you're thinking as a lawyer and this is OK to me. Maybe somebody could win such a case vs. Porsche. But I actually don't see where Porsche advertises their cars and the PCCB as products which are made for track racing.
    I agree however that their ads can be easily "misunderstood" and I'm not sure if they did it by mistake or on purpose.

    Re: Imlied warranties vs. the written warranty

    With all due respect RC, I don't think that Porsche needs to redesign their advertising strategy - I think they need to redesign the PCCB brakes that they are charging $14k extra for. They shouldn't sell such a system that is so inferior on a track to the "standard" steel system. I agree with Stephen on this one.

    Re: Imlied warranties vs. the written warranty

    Quote:
    With all due respect RC, I don't think that Porsche needs to redesign their advertising strategy - I think they need to redesign the PCCB brakes that they are charging $14k extra for. They shouldn't sell such a system that is so inferior on a track to the "standard" steel system. I agree with Stephen on this one.



    Well, I've never been a friend of the PCCB but I guess this is no secret.

    Re: Imlied warranties vs. the written warranty

    Quote:
    The fastest way around the track is to choose the right place
    to finish your braking at or near the turn-in point at the start
    of the corner, and hit that spot. Whether or not you have
    ABS, the fast way is to keep your foot on the throttle until
    the last instant you can to still reach your turn-in speed
    when you reach that end-of-braking spot, and then apply
    maximum available braking till you get to the turn-in speed
    at the turn-in marker.


    [list]
    Joe, Sorry, wrong. It is much faster to raise the entry velocity that you are using at your turn in point and turn in WHILE STANDING ON THE BRAKES. When you turn in, the ABS will drop on the fronts and allow the wheels to turn in while the rear wheels will continue to brake. Faster ... see?

    In simple terms, if I was sold car designed for the track with brakes that were advertised to last "for nearly the life of the car" and they fried without my abuse, just use, I would be way mad and everyone else here would be too.

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 4/17/24 7:16 AM
    GnilM
    780804 1798
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 4/7/24 11:48 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    442541 565
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 5/12/23 12:11 PM
    W8MM
    263327 288
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 3/12/24 8:28 AM
    DJM48
    261654 323
    Porsche Sticky The new Macan: the first all-electric SUV from Porsche 1/30/24 9:18 AM
    RCA
    85788 45
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Taycan 2024 Facelift 3/15/24 1:23 PM
    CGX car nut
    5908 50
    Porsche The moment I've been waiting for... 2/1/24 7:01 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    881400 1364
    Porsche 992 GT3 7/23/23 7:01 PM
    Grant
    818792 3868
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 2/10/24 4:43 PM
    nberry
    392083 1526
    Porsche GT4RS 4/21/24 11:50 AM
    mcdelaug
    392044 1454
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 12/13/23 2:48 PM
    CGX car nut
    374836 2401
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/3/23 12:30 PM
    Porker
    369376 797
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 4/11/24 12:32 PM
    Ferdie
    289874 668
    Porsche Collected my 997 GTS today 10/19/23 7:06 PM
    CGX car nut
     
     
     
     
     
    261818 812
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/30/23 6:59 PM
    mcdelaug
    240673 346
    Lotus Lotus Emira 6/25/23 2:53 PM
    Enmanuel
    231157 101
    Others Corvette C8 10/16/23 3:24 PM
    Enmanuel
    221588 488
    Others Gordon Murray - T.50 11/22/23 10:27 AM
    mcdelaug
    169826 387
    Porsche Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS 6/11/23 5:13 PM
    CGX car nut
    141583 144
    BMW M 2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now 12/29/23 9:04 AM
    RCA
    118092 303
    Motor Sp. 2023 Formula One 12/19/23 5:38 AM
    WhoopsyM
    109239 685
    Porsche 2022 992 Safari Model 3/7/24 4:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    84572 239
    AMG Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758 2/23/24 10:03 PM
    blueflame
    75341 297
    Porsche 992 GT3 RS 3/3/24 7:22 PM
    WhoopsyM
    54162 314
    Motor Sp. Porsche 963 3/16/24 9:27 PM
    WhoopsyM
    25431 237
    Ferrari Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6) 1/21/24 4:29 PM
    GT-Boy
    21223 103
    BMW M 2022 BMW M5 CS 4/8/24 1:43 PM
    Ferdie
    19584 140
    AMG G63 sold out 9/15/23 7:38 PM
    Nico997
    16637 120
    AMG [2022] Mercedes-AMG SL 4/23/24 1:24 PM
    RCA
    13906 225
    Motor Sp. 24-Hour race Nürburgring 2018 5/25/23 10:42 PM
    Grant
    11297 55
    126 items found, displaying 1 to 30.