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    Sep 30, 2003 4:17:33 AM

    FutchM
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    Futch
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    well...

    Nothing new here really, but there's this whole mistery about huge capex that difficult to justify if not a fourth model.
    And the contradiction that Wiedeking said the fourth model will be a low range model, ie, below the Boxster but then, they would have no engine for it stating that the Cayenne V8 would not be appropriate for a small car.
    We'll know more next year apparently.
    Can't wait.
    A small car? Why not? For me, as long as they keep making great sports cars, it's ok.
    I suppose they would be targeting the Audi TT??? The Mazda MX5???
    A Porsche MX5? Oh well, what the hell!
    Fanch.
    PS: I forgot to get rid of all the GS disclaimer BS, sorry...

    Sep 30, 2003 12:11:54 PM

    GM AustinM
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    GM Austin
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Really interesting news!

    I had the impression ThyssenKrupp was doing the stamping and welding of Cayenne/Touareg bodies. See this press release from ThyssenKrupp.

    Sep 30, 2003 12:13:18 PM

    FutchM
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    Futch
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    Reply to: GM AustinM

    Re: Really interesting news!

    About the Cayenne, I don't know Gary, but I knew that 996 and 986 body were made by BMW!
    Fanch.

    Sep 30, 2003 12:39:33 PM

    Getaway
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    Reply to: GM AustinM

    Re: Really interesting news!

    Quote:
    I had the impression ThyssenKrupp was doing the stamping and welding of Cayenne/Touareg bodies. See this press release from ThyssenKrupp.



    I'm pretty sure Magna Heavy Steal is doing the body for the Cayenne. Maybe their supplier is TK.

    Greets,

    Getaway

    Sep 30, 2003 7:56:22 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Getaway

    Re: Really interesting news!

    Quote:
    I'm pretty sure Magna Heavy Steal is doing the body for the Cayenne. Maybe their supplier is TK.

    Greets,
    Getaway



    You're absolutely right, Getaway. And Magna is in Slovakia.

    Sep 30, 2003 11:30:46 PM

    Carrageous Offline
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: well...

    Fanch,

    So... there are some contradictory statements, as you point out. But let's say Wedeking's statement about going to a market segment below their current offerings is the truth.

    That would be, presumably, 3-Series and S4 territory. The information on the model numbers (four-passenger coupe, code-named E2A, and a four-door sedan, code-named E2B) is pretty specific. Details add believability, so let's go with them. That rules out an Audi TT-fighter. Rules out an Elise-fighter. Means a car you could sell lots of, presumably, if it was a sports sedan/sports coupe that was "true" to the Porsche heritage.

    What I like about the idea of that kind of car is that it is, among other things, an "honest" car. Audi A4 and S4s are reasonably priced, not "flashy," but great cars for the price. So a, say, $39,000 -- $45,000 (I think that's like 34,000 Euros, at the close of today's market) Porsche sports sedan with a Cayenne V8 and Boxster-feel suspension is pretty appealing! And if it handles better and is faster than an M3, well then! If it did that and looked as good as an S4, so much the better.

    Or, to engage in a bit of magical realism, let's say they design a mid/rear engine, cab-forward sports sedan with 300 HP that handles like a Boxster, uses the 911 engine and is completely different. OK, I'll roll over and go back to sleep now. Naturally, it would be too expensive to develop.

    As many people have stated before me, Porsche is a little behind in the horsepower wars. Being currently in between Porsches (and when I'm in between Porsches, I'm much more interested in reading about them than when I have one in the garage), I'm currently driving my wife's Volvo V70R, a 260 HP sports wagon. The new model has 340 HP+-. I'm sorry, but I don't think a Porsche sedan would want to have less HP than a Volvo wagon. Granted, Porsche has historically been more about superior engineering and overall performance than about pure HP, but still.

    But here's another bit of magical realism, unthinkable because it's hard to imagine making the margins they need: a WRC entry in the WRX/Mitsu Evo class. A pocket rocket. Light and incredibly fun to drive. Porsche purists please note: this is where Porsche started. There is nothing more pure than a light, fast "peoples'" Porsche. At the very dawn of the Sixties, I used to watch the racing at Sandown outside of Melbourne. The cars that were loved were Minis and Porsches because they were the little cars battling the big guys and winning. They were light and true. Could Porsche regain that heritage? Using the Boxster frame, with the Boxster engine in the rear, you would have a car would be unique, wicked, intelligent and, in my insignificant and humble world view, very desirable.

    Let me take another sip of tequila before I offer this final thought: the WRC has certainly a wide appeal among younger drivers in North America and Europe. Porsche used to dominate this racing medium in the Sixties and early Seventies and could certainly do it again. F1 and Le Mans too expensive? Perhaps WRC fits the budget better. And if it draws in a whole new generation of Porschephiles, I am, as they say, down with that.

    Enter then, stage left, a street legal rally Porsche (who cares how many doors) that's light and true. I'm pulling my check book out now. For, say, $37,000, what would there be to say no to?

    OK, let me concentrate on this tequila. It's sunset in Texas.

    Dain



    Sep 30, 2003 11:36:24 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Carrageous

    Re: well...

    Well, Dain...I guess you forgot the word PROFIT and SHAREHOLDERS in your analysis. That said, I really doubt an entry level Porsche (this is actually what the Boxster Coupe will be) but more of a 4-door sedan which perfectly makes sense if you look at the success of high power limousines like E55, M5 and Audi RS6.

    Surprise, surprise but I still put my cards on a 4-door sedan. Especially after the Cayenne "adventure".

    Sep 30, 2003 11:56:38 PM

    william
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    william
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    Reply to: RCA

    very sad to hear

    As I predicted, Porsche is slowly moving into the luxury car sectors. In my opinon, I really doubt Porsche have the resources and the abilities to compete with Mercedes and BMW in the 4 door cars sector. At this point, Porsche is depending on its name to sell cars, specificaly the Cayenne. In the short term, it will boost sales but in long run, they will totally destroy their traditional sport car image, when the 'Porsche' name is ruined, it will be tough for them to rebuild it. I predict that VW will going to buy off Porsche soon or later. Let see if I am right.

    Oct 1, 2003 12:19:35 AM

    GM AustinM
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    GM Austin
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    Reply to: Carrageous

    Re: well...

    Gosh Dain! You've sure sold me. I'm heading for the tequila too!

    Oct 1, 2003 4:45:59 AM

    FutchM
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    Futch
    Loc: EU , United Kingdom
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    Reply to: Carrageous

    Re: well...

    Good post Dain, and interesting.
    Yes I agree, the Subaru, Mitsu EVO and Nissan Skyline occupy a segment of the market which is not very competitive and becoming very popular with young drivers between 25 to 35 I'd say. Carrera performance for Audi TT money, but Porsche already has a Car with Carrera performance, it's the erm.... Carrera
    Honestly, don't know what it's going to be, but I think they will use the V8 for the next car. But then Wiedeking specifically said the fourth model with be a lower model than the Boxster. This is exciting, I think we'll find out soon.
    Fanch.

    Oct 1, 2003 4:24:46 PM

    Gavin.O
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    Reply to: FutchM

    Re: well...

    Is it possible that Mr. Wedeking was referring to the Boxster coupe when he indicated that the new model would be priced below the current Boxster? That would explain how Porsche could use the Cayenne V8 with the so-called E2, which might fall into the Cayenne or 911's price range.

    Just a theory.

    --Gavin O.

    Oct 1, 2003 9:15:48 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Gavin.O

    Re: well...

    Mr. Wiedeking is a very clever person and he knows VERY well that any word he says will make the press to write about it.
    I seriously doubt the 4th model to be an entry-level Porsche and yes, I think that the Boxster Coupe will be the entry-level car everybody expects. A "GT" similar to the old 928 but more refined and more powerful would make sense too.
    Actually two cars are missing from Porsche's model range: a sedan and a larger Coupe with 4 "real" seats.
    Both could use the Cayenne engines and both could be produced at Leipzig. However I'm not quite sure if Porsche will develop the Sedan/GT by themselves, it is very likely that they use some "basis" from Audi. I doubt it will be VW because they really have an issue with weight.

    Maybe I can say more on that on Monday.

    Oct 2, 2003 12:43:51 PM

    GM AustinM
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    GM Austin
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    Reply to: Getaway

    Re: Really interesting news!

    Quote:
    I'm pretty sure Magna Heavy Steal is doing the body for the Cayenne. Maybe their supplier is TK.



    Are we talking about Magna International?

    Oct 3, 2003 12:12:49 PM

    GM AustinM
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    GM Austin
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    Reply to: GM AustinM

    Re: Really interesting news!

    I have been searching for some confirmation of this but I don't find anything. As far as I know ThyssenKrupp is supplying a "body in white" directly to VW; ready to paint.

    Magna's Donnelly division is supplying the outside mirrors for the Cayenne but nothing else. Magna Steyr or Magna Heavy Stamping could do the job and they are involved in many projects; it looks like they will do the complete assembly of the new BMW X-3. Not that much of their business is with VW however.

    But, what do I know? There are so many deals going on with auto manufacturing it seems quite difficult to tell who is making what.

    Oct 3, 2003 1:08:31 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: GM AustinM

    Re: Really interesting news!

    Gary, what I know for sure is that the Cayenne and Touareg bodies (and body parts) are manufactured in Slovakia.
     
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