Crown

Congratulations Whoopsy

The Dakar is a unique 911 design-wise and perhaps in terms of practicality too.

Nevertheless, how can the difference of €60.000 (+36%) over the donor car i.e. the Carrera 4 GTS be justified in real terms?

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

reginos:

 

Nevertheless, how can the difference of €60.000 (+36%) over the donor car i.e. the Carrera 4 GTS be justified in real terms?

Oh trust me, Porsche's pricing been out of whack for a while. Dakar isn't even the stand out, the S/T won that by a mile, outrageously over price for what it is. At least the Dakar stands out among other 911s. 

In my market, the different between the standard GTS vs the Dakar is about the same as the S/T over a GT3RS.

Both the Dakar and the S/T are mostly parts bin special, with some bespoke parts thrown in. Dakar has its own custom rear wing while the S/T got its own front fenders. Both got the same hood and roof. S/T retains the door from the 3RS while the Dakar got new front and rear bumpers and also steel skid plates. S/T went back to standard GT3 front and rear bumpers. Dakar also got a new stronger under tray while the S/T...bone stock.

At least in the Dakar's case, Porsche reengineered the suspension to work at a higher ride height, S/T has the same basic road suspension, just slightly different spring and damper rate. 

S/T got a new clutch, single mass, and some would argue a 'new' gearbox. Not really, just slightly different gearing. 

One take a look at the Dakar and instantly reminded of the glory days of Porsche's rally effort, and it looks very different than any other 911s. The S/T on the other hand, mostly look like any other 911, only the well informed will see it's a different car than a Touring. 

One get less 'equipment' in the S/T vs the 3RS while paying more while the Dakar is more or less the same level with a standard GTS, the major premium over the standard cars in either case is from the 'limited' production badge. But is that really 'limited' with 1967 cars or 2500 cars? Either number is much greater than my turbo 3.6. 

Either of these are less bespoke than my turbo s Exclusive. Also in much much greater number produced, Dakar 5  times and the S/T 4 times. 

Sound wise, the S/T wins. That 3RS engine/GT3 engine sounded really good, but I would argue it sounds even better in the 4RS. The 3.0L in the Dakar just does not sound good at all. 

Honestly if one wants a S/T, I would suggesting going for a 911R instead, the prices have come down and it's a much more limited model, and also have history, the R truly have bespoke clutch and gearbox even. The R is a smaller car so even better suited for the intended purpose, Sunday morning drives. 

If one wants a Dakar......well, there isn't another one like it, ever, from Porsche. This is the whole reason to justify the purchase premium. There is no substitute. 

Whoopsy:

I believe 95% of the orders opt for the A/T tires. The rest summer, which is Pirelli PZero.

Porsche has factory winters for that sizing. Also from Pirelli, PZero Winter. 

Don't believe there is a all-weather tire option however.

One strange thing about the Pirelli Scorpion A/T tires on the Dakar, the whole range of that model is 3 peak mountain winter rated, except the 2 sizes for Dakar. That means Porsche has custom compounds. 

 

Thank you.

W8MM:

Whoopsy:

I believe 95% of the orders opt for the A/T tires. The rest summer, which is Pirelli PZero.

Porsche has factory winters for that sizing. Also from Pirelli, PZero Winter. 

Don't believe there is a all-weather tire option however.

One strange thing about the Pirelli Scorpion A/T tires on the Dakar, the whole range of that model is 3 peak mountain winter rated, except the 2 sizes for Dakar. That means Porsche has custom compounds. 

 

Exactly.  My dealer thought the A/T tires were going to be all season version, but Porsche had other ideas.  I also have the PZero WInter wheel and tire set (black spokes for them, too).  Haven't had enough snow this winter to try them out 

 

--

 

Mike

 

918 Spyder + 992 Dakar + Mercedes EQS580v4 + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + BMWs (Z8 + 3.0 CSi) + Bentley Arnage T

Please forgive my ignorance...Aren't all terrain (A/T) tires a step up to winter tires in term of grip in winter conditions?

Ziggy:

Please forgive my ignorance...Aren't all terrain (A/T) tires a step up to winter tires in term of grip in winter conditions?

I think all-terrain tires are more focused on driving off the paved surface (like gravel, sand, dirt, etc.) than snow and ice.

Porsche has 3 sets of wheels/tires for the Dakar (as Whoopsy mentioned), A/T, Winter, and Summer:

https://www.suncoastparts.com/category/2020911mddakachws.html

22 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.9L Twin-Plug MFI Carbon Fiber replica. Former: 18 GT3 Manual, 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi, 06 EVO9 with track mods

https://www.pirelli.com/global/en-ww/road/cars/tyres/three-exclusive-pirelli-tyres-for-the-new-porsche-911-dakar-58854/

Ziggy:

 

Please forgive my ignorance...Aren't all terrain (A/T) tires a step up to winter tires in term of grip in winter conditions?

"Most' A/T tires have compound that can work in winter condition, aka low temperature, but not a given. 

A/T tires have more aggressive tread blocks for grip in loose material surface, like sand gravel, mud etc. They also have tread on the side for rock crawling. But those same tread pattern isn't the best for driving on snow and ice. 

Thank you Grant and Whoopsy!

Michelin has a specific snow tyre for this car, X Ice North 4

Whoopsy:

Ziggy:

 

Please forgive my ignorance...Aren't all terrain (A/T) tires a step up to winter tires in term of grip in winter conditions?

 

"Most' A/T tires have compound that can work in winter condition, aka low temperature, but not a given. 

A/T tires have more aggressive tread blocks for grip in loose material surface, like sand gravel, mud etc. They also have tread on the side for rock crawling. But those same tread pattern isn't the best for driving on snow and ice. 

I presume the A/T tyres with their kind of tread, would spoil the ride.Even SUVs ride harsher on A/Ts.

OTOH the choice of supersports offered would limit the capabilities of the Dakar in wintery conditions , in areas where proper winter tyres are not needed.

I wonder why Porsche only offer the two extremes and do not offer normal P Zero or Michelin PS4 like on the Carrera models.

--

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

reginos:

 

I presume the A/T tyres with their kind of tread, would spoil the ride.Even SUVs ride harsher on A/Ts.

OTOH the choice of supersports offered would limit the capabilities of the Dakar in wintery conditions , in areas where proper winter tyres are not needed.

I wonder why Porsche only offer the two extremes and do not offer normal P Zero or Michelin PS4 like on the Carrera models.

--

 

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

 

See my link above for the Pirelli press release. Pirelli makes 3 tires for the Dakar, the Scorpion A/T Plus, the P Zero PZ4 and the P Zero winter.

The Scorpion A/T Plus in Dakar sizing, 245/45ZR19, 295/40ZR20,  is a specially made for Dakar tire, different compound and construction, so it will ride very differently than ordinary A/T tires. 

cnc:

Michelin has a specific snow tyre for this car, X Ice North 4

You sure about that? The X Ice North 4 has the 245/45-19 front sizing, but they don't have the 295/40 rear in 20s. 

Here is something very interesting and funny, wherever Porsche put a 'limited' number plate on a product, people go crazy.

Dakar will have 2500 cars, the S/T will have 1967 cars. Both will have a one year or so production window.

But not many knows for each generations of models, and I count the .1 as one generation and .2 as another, that they make less 911 turbo Ss than those cars. Like, there will be fewer 992.1 turbo S than the S/T, Porsche just don't put a number plate on those. And if one subdivide the coupes from the cabriolets, the difference is even greater. 

This tyre is used by Porsche in their winter driving promo..is that sure enough for you?

cnc:

This tyre is used by Porsche in their winter driving promo..is that sure enough for you?

Nope.

Those are studded tires, not regular winter tires if you haven't noticed. Filming promos isn't the same as being offered to clients. You can't head to any tire dealers to order those tires for a Dakar, you won't find the proper rear sizing. 

--

Sorry - promo should have read program (careless auto typing) - as in Winter programs - Finland for example. Google for the tires. Are you saying Porsche would NOT put proper size tyres on their cars? 

Ah Lapland! Fun times there! Did 3 trips over there. 

What they run over there isn't 'standard'. One cannot use what they run there as the guide. 

The first year I went there they have the 918 running on studded tires, front and rear are of the wrong sizing but they needed something with studs. I have winter tires on my 918, narrower than stock and also had to get HRE to custom make wheels for fitment. While tire sizing came from Porsche, they aren't officially endorsing the tires and didn't certify any winter tires, they didn't imagine someone will actually drive the car in winter in snow. Well I did and sent them pictures. 

GT3RS on studs is another attraction, the rear tires are again wrong sizing, but like with the 918, the most important attribute they need is the tire diameter so the ECU isn't confused with wheel speed. 

Cup car on studs was hyper fun also, they had to put in a custom steering rack in order to get the required steering angles. 

Since one is on ice and snow, the ultimate 'grip' of a wider tire is pointless, the grip comes from the studs, and how long they are. They can get away with using narrower tires than stock.

And yes, I am saying they aren't putting proper sizing studded tires in Lapland. One aren't doing 200+km/hr in those tracks nor pulling 1G around corners. 

Whoopsy:

reginos:

 

I presume the A/T tyres with their kind of tread, would spoil the ride.Even SUVs ride harsher on A/Ts.

OTOH the choice of supersports offered would limit the capabilities of the Dakar in wintery conditions , in areas where proper winter tyres are not needed.

I wonder why Porsche only offer the two extremes and do not offer normal P Zero or Michelin PS4 like on the Carrera models.

--

 

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

 

 

See my link above for the Pirelli press release. Pirelli makes 3 tires for the Dakar, the Scorpion A/T Plus, the P Zero PZ4 and the P Zero winter.

The Scorpion A/T Plus in Dakar sizing, 245/45ZR19, 295/40ZR20,  is a specially made for Dakar tire, different compound and construction, so it will ride very differently than ordinary A/T tires. 

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

Michelin tyre sizes on a stock Dakar wheel.

Front 245/40 R19

Rear  285/40 R20

By the way, it (handling) is not all about the depth of the studs, it is more about the # of studs.

Michelin don't make the Ice North 4 in 285/40ZR20, widest they make is 275.

If you think the number of studs trumps the length of studs, we can give it a try some time in Lapland. You can drive one with many 3mm studs while I do with less but longer 6mm ones. 

Did them all over the years in Lapland, 3mm, 6mm, 8mm and no studs, RWD, AWD, Caymans, 911s, Cup cars, 918s, Panameras, Cayennes.  Back then Nokian supplied most of the studded tires, and Porsche never certified any Nokians as official winter tires. 

Fun time!

Sometimes Porsche does strange things with the tire their use and then the ones who get N rating for sale to clients.

When they were developing the Carrera 997.2, they were using the Michelin PSS (all photos of the prototypes were showing this tire on the cars) but then when it was launched, the Michelin PSS was not available with a N rating for that car, only the PS2 was. 

Here is an example of the specialty tires Porsche uses in Lapland.

These Nokians have 8mm studs, this is fitted to their GT4 e-performance race car. 

Aaah, but you forgot about the Dakar Targa, yet to be announced (with its own limited run color and special ski carrier)!

Porsche now uses the Michelin tyre I referenced above.

And like I said before, what you see in Lapland isn't applicable in the real world. Whatever tire is there is only applicable to their cars running at their playground. 

Porsche does not certify any studded tires for their cars. Run at the owners' risk as they say. Especially those that aren't in factory fitment sizing. 

Porsche has a whole village of mechanics to maintain their fleet of over 100 cars there, and direct access to ECU programming for tire circumference differences. 

Yet you refer to their Cup Car at a previous program with the "Happi" tires 8mm studs.

Is it possible you are out of touch and your experiences have aged, and you are trading on your perceived laurels...if you won any races?

In short, you are out of touch?

You are quite correct, my last time at Lapland was in 2017, been a few years. 

Did you get a chance to do the Cup car on ice at Lapland? Or they don't offer that anymore? It was immense fun. One session it was just me and a buddy on track and they had a Cayenne follow our laps, ready to pull us to of trouble at once.

I think they have retired the 918 from the ice experience, you missed out big time there. Doing the figure 8 track in the 918 is a really cool experience. 

But surely you have at least do the GT3 (it was the GT3RS back then, not sure they got any 992 GT3RS at Lapland yet) in the 'forest' track? The elevation changes is mega. 

Tell me at least you went down the hill from the Porsche Hotel and did the ice karting, those kart run on studded tires, another fun thing to do.

I don't actually have to physically be there to know the tires they run at Lapland are specialty ones that they won't offer on their road cars, Porsche simply never ever certified any studded tires.

You are of corse welcome to think otherwise, but honestly, there isn't any facts to back up your thinking. You got the tire sizing for Dakar right but you didn't actually find out Michelin didn't make those exact sizing in the tires you talked about. 

As for 'out of touch', that depends on what is the topic. There are things that I am, and there are things that I am not. 😉

Now onto my 'racing history'. Board says you been here since 2003, surely you must have read about me posting my experience back in 2018 with the initial PRE, Porsche Racing Experience program, the same program that Fassbender came out of later. Spent a year racing Cup car in the German series, only non-white person on the grid, never won and also never came last either, in process beating a whole bunch of white guys that's been racing for years. My goal achieved. Even got ranked on Drivers DB online, not really close to Verstappen though haha. Had to turn down an invite from Porsche to race a Cup car at Le Mans in the support series couple years back as I no longer able to pass medical after eye surgery.  Would have been nice and a dream come true to race on the actual Le Mans circuit. But no regrets, especially when I had already raced at Spa, Nurburgring, Hockenheim, Red Bull Ring and others. Anything else you want to know?

How about you let us know of your qualifications? 

cnc:

Yet you refer to their Cup Car at a previous program with the "Happi" tires 8mm studs.

Is it possible you are out of touch and your experiences have aged, and you are trading on your perceived laurels...if you won any races?

In short, you are out of touch?

 

 

Lol, we're talking about tires here. Maybe go for a walk?

997.2 4S / BMW 745e / Donkervoort GT 

Whoopsy out of touch? WOW! That may qualify as the dumbest sentence ever posted on Renntesm.

The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.

It's alright guys, we are all entitled to free speech, everyone is welcome to believe whatever they wanted to believe.

I certainly wasn't offended. More like.....amused.