Rennteam 2.0 - ES - Forum - Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump? - Page1

21-ago-2005 17:40:50

madadd: Co-Pilot; Loc: uk; Posts: 240, Gallery; Registrado desde: 04-ene-2005

Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

Hi all,

I've seen lots of posts discussing the forthcoming gt3 and its use of a true dry sump.

But..

The brochure clainms the 997 has an 'Integrated dry sump'. All i know is what the brochure says, but it describes a lubrication system pretty similar to what I know a dry sump to be.

So the obvious question.. why isnt it? And how does it differ from the 'true' dry sump on the old gt3?

Thanks

..Add

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21-ago-2005 20:22:29

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , Estados Unidos; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registrado desde: 11-may-2004; Reply to: madadd

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

A true "dry sump" has a separate oil tank, the "integrated dry sump" on the 996/997 engine does not. The GT2/3 and TT use the engine based on the 964/993 3.6, which is a true dry sump design.

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21-ago-2005 21:07:03

madadd: Co-Pilot; Loc: uk; Posts: 240, Gallery; Registrado desde: 04-ene-2005; Reply to: 964C2

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

Again, excuse my ignorance but... Is this difference relevant?

The brochure makes claims that having the oil reservoir internally rather than externally provides a number of benefits.

Still confused!

...Add

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21-ago-2005 21:28:00

Trundle_GT3: Veteran; Loc: CA, USA; Posts: 1016, Gallery; Registrado desde: 30-jun-2003; Reply to: madadd

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

A Dry Sump will assure proper oil delivery under lateral "G" loading.
An "integrated dry sump" may not.

Hence the disclamer in the owners manual:

The fitting of racing tires (e.g. slicks) for sporting events is not approved by Porsche. Very high cornering speeds can be achieved with racing tires. However, the resulting transverse acceleration values would jeopardize the adequate supply of oil to the engine.

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21-ago-2005 22:09:36

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Alemania; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registrado desde: 23-jul-2003; Reply to: madadd

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

Quote:
madadd said:
Again, excuse my ignorance but... Is this difference relevant?

For anyone who does not drive his Porsche on a race circuit on so-called racing "slick" tires, it is not relevant.

To put this situation into proportion, you need to know that:
a) no informed consumer would expect any car manufacturer other than Porsche to equip its series-production road cars with an engine which could unconditionally run on a circuit on racing tires without any changes being made to that car first.
b) only a small proportion of Porsche sports cars are ever run on a circuit on slicks during their lifetime. A larger proportion might be run on circuits with road tires, which would not involve any risks of the engine lubrication system possibly failing to maintain an acceptable pressure.
c) for those who do want to run their cars on circuits, with or without slicks, Porsche makes special models like the GT2 and GT3, which are specifically specced to better suit them for track use, including the fitting of a roll-cage and one-piece racing shell seats (where local laws allow), and more track-biased suspension set-ups. By definition, these cars are not quite as well-adapted to everyday use as the "standard" models, as they make fewer concessions to practicality and comfort.

However, this does not stop some people complaining that Porsche products do not fulfil all their expectations perfectly.

They expect what in German would be described as an egg-laying, wool-bearing, milk-giving, bacon hog.

Naturally, this product should also be sold a whole lot cheaper than Porsche currently sells its sports cars at.

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21-ago-2005 22:27:54

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , Estados Unidos; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registrado desde: 25-jul-2004; Reply to: fritz

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

For those that who do not know it, Porsche 911's made prior to the 996 and 997 ALL had dry sump oil systems, and their owners could use racing slicks on autocross courses and track days.It was not uncommon to do and see.

Porsche not having a dry sump system on Boxsters and 911s
was done to save money, period. Even the Corvette Z06 has
a dry sump system and even more embarrasingly, even the new Mustang Cobra will have one.

"You can buy a GT3 or GT2" to get to use racing slicks for a autocross or track day in a street car is frgggn lame ridiculous excuse. For so long the Porsche 911 was the only street car with a dry sump!

Now Porsche 911s don't have them. But sports model Ford mustangs and Chevys corvettes will.

Porsche's cost cutting to maximize profit as much as they can has gotten ridiculous. Their attitude on that issue,
Cayenne throttle hesitation and lack of a limited slip diff
offered in the US really pisses off some of their long time customers, me included

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22-ago-2005 4:31:29

Gary No Cal: Junior; Loc: Calif. USA; Posts: 130, Gallery; Registrado desde: 19-may-2005; Reply to: fritz

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

Quote:
fritz said:

For anyone who does not drive his Porsche on a race circuit on so-called racing "slick" tires, it is not relevant.

To put this situation into proportion, you need to know that:
a) no informed consumer would expect any car manufacturer other than Porsche to equip its series-production road cars with an engine which could unconditionally run on a circuit on racing tires without any changes being made to that car first.
b) only a small proportion of Porsche sports cars are ever run on a circuit on slicks during their lifetime. A larger proportion might be run on circuits with road tires, which would not involve any risks of the engine lubrication system possibly failing to maintain an acceptable pressure.
c) for those who do want to run their cars on circuits, with or without slicks, Porsche makes special models like the GT2 and GT3, which are specifically specced to better suit them for track use, including the fitting of a roll-cage and one-piece racing shell seats (where local laws allow), and more track-biased suspension set-ups. By definition, these cars are not quite as well-adapted to everyday use as the "standard" models, as they make fewer concessions to practicality and comfort.

However, this does not stop some people complaining that Porsche products do not fulfil all their expectations perfectly.

They expect what in German would be described as an egg-laying, wool-bearing, milk-giving, bacon hog.

Naturally, this product should also be sold a whole lot cheaper than Porsche currently sells its sports cars at.

Does this mean DOT street legal track tire like Michilin Club Sports?

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22-ago-2005 6:23:46

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , Estados Unidos; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registrado desde: 25-jul-2004; Reply to: Gary No Cal

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

If its a DOT R compound tire you are ok.

If you want to step up to a non DOT street approved tire that has greater adhesion you are hosed.

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22-ago-2005 20:49:38

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Alemania; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registrado desde: 23-jul-2003; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
For those that who do not know it, Porsche 911's made prior to the 996 and 997 ALL had dry sump oil systems, and their owners could use racing slicks on autocross courses and track days.It was not uncommon to do and see.

Porsche not having a dry sump system on Boxsters and 911s
was done to save money, period. Even the Corvette Z06 has
a dry sump system and even more embarrasingly, even the new Mustang Cobra will have one.

"You can buy a GT3 or GT2" to get to use racing slicks for a autocross or track day in a street car is frgggn lame ridiculous excuse. For so long the Porsche 911 was the only street car with a dry sump!

Now Porsche 911s don't have them. But sports model Ford mustangs and Chevys corvettes will.

Porsche's cost cutting to maximize profit as much as they can has gotten ridiculous. Their attitude on that issue,
Cayenne throttle hesitation and lack of a limited slip diff
offered in the US really pisses off some of their long time customers, me included

"For those who do not know it", the Z06 Corvette fitted with a wet sump is not the standard model, but a special - more track oriented - sports model, much like the GT3 is in relation to the standard 911. At a starting price of $65,800, the ZO6 is 47% more expensive than the standard Corvette coupe, so the ZO6 is not exactly a car the General could claim to have saved money on.

The cost-cutting standard Corvette does not have a dry sump. It even gets by on just one low-mounted camshaft and 16 stone-age pushrods, as opposed to a standard 911s 4 overhead camshafts and 24 valves.
So by building one bread-and-butter sportscar for the road, and a sportier GT version for road and track, Porsche was just doing the same as GM is doing with the standard and ZO6 Corvettes, except Porsche did it first.

Jim, I don't know what you were thinking of when you held up the engine of the Ford Shelby Cobra as a shining example to Porsche. The car is slated as a 2007 model, so how reliable is the information on its final spec anyway?

Automobile Magazine does not appear to know anything about it having a dry sump. That mag does say it will use a 5.4 liter cast iron block also used in "various large trucks"! It's a long-stroke engine which was red-lined in the show car at only 6000 rpm, for pete's sake!

I won't stoop so low as to mention that the car will supposedly have a solid rear axle. Oh, I just did.

Automobile Magazine does say that "Predicting how much of this hide and horsepower will make the leap to production is a fool's game right now", so I personally will not get involved in any speculation on that subject.

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23-ago-2005 1:41:22

frayed: Senior; Loc: Austin, TX , Estados Unidos; Posts: 510, Gallery; Registrado desde: 17-oct-2004; Reply to: fritz

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

I think the core of the issue is history. Chevy has no history of offering dry sump motors to the public. . . Porsche did as a matter of course. Every owner, whether a cab owner, targa owner, C4 owner etc had the knowledge that despite the comforts added into their particular car, despite a nod to luxury, their car had a race derived and proven drivetrain.

The 996s and boxsters changed the status quo and pissed off the old faithful. Not surprising.

Now, insult to injury: Chevy.

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23-ago-2005 3:32:02

Gary No Cal: Junior; Loc: Calif. USA; Posts: 130, Gallery; Registrado desde: 19-may-2005; Reply to: frayed

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

Ok guys, now you have me confused and concerned. Porsche claims their integrated dry-sump is superior to a conventional external dry sump.

"Dry-sump lubrication is race-proven technology that ensures a reliable supply of oil, while reducing engine operating temperatures.
A pump supplies oil from an internal reservoir located within the block to the lubrication points throughout the engine. ..... This internal system offers a number of benefits compared with conventional external dry-sump tanks, including a reduction in both system weight and oil volume. During its circuit, the oil is passed through a system of cylindrical containers where any unwanted gases are removed. This "defoaming" process restores the oil's lubrication properties and helps to maintain pressure in the self-adjusting tappets. Without it, the tappets could not function properly and both performance and emissions would be adversely affected".

Jimflat6, are you saying this new integrated system is inferior while Porsche seems to claim it is an improvement. I plan on doing track day events with DOT track tires. Do I have to be concerned with insufficient oil lubrication? Do we know for sure this new system won't show up in the GT2 & GT 3?

BTY, I did about a dozen autocrosses in my '97 Boxster with no ill-effect and she is still running strong.

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23-ago-2005 14:57:53

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , Reino Unido; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registrado desde: 14-may-2002; Reply to: Gary No Cal

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

Quote:
Gary No Cal said:

BTY, I did about a dozen autocrosses in my '97 Boxster with no ill-effect and she is still running strong.

As Fritz clearly explained, as long as you stay with normal road tyres, you're 100% fine.

Dry sump lub engine are mounted on more focused models like the GT2/3 and Carrera GT so that hardcore costumers can track them with slick tyres, but then, obviously, they're not street legal.

I wonder how many clients actually fit their GT2/3 and CGT with slick tyres but my assumtion is not many.

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23-ago-2005 15:53:25

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , Estados Unidos; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registrado desde: 21-ago-2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:For so long the Porsche 911 was the only street car with a dry sump!

I think most Ferraris had them too (and still do). It's a shame that the 997/987 don't

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23-ago-2005 16:05:23

boytronic: Veteran; Loc: London , Reino Unido; Posts: 961, Gallery; Registrado desde: 05-ene-2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

Quote:
Grant said:
I think most Ferraris had them too (and still do). It's a shame that the 997/987 don't

Well I hope the 997 GT3/2 and Turbo have dry sumps, else there's no point in having them!

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23-ago-2005 16:47:00

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , Estados Unidos; Posts: 12588, Gallery; Registrado desde: 21-ago-2002; Reply to: boytronic

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

Quote:
boytronic said:
Quote:
Grant said:
I think most Ferraris had them too (and still do). It's a shame that the 997/987 don't

Well I hope the 997 GT3/2 and Turbo have dry sumps, else there's no point in having them!

I'm 99% sure they will be dry sumps.

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23-ago-2005 19:41:05

Gary No Cal: Junior; Loc: Calif. USA; Posts: 130, Gallery; Registrado desde: 19-may-2005; Reply to: Futch

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

Quote:
Fanch said:
Quote:
Gary No Cal said:

BTY, I did about a dozen autocrosses in my '97 Boxster with no ill-effect and she is still running strong.

As Fritz clearly explained, as long as you stay with normal road tyres, you're 100% fine.

Dry sump lub engine are mounted on more focused models like the GT2/3 and Carrera GT so that hardcore costumers can track them with slick tyres, but then, obviously, they're not street legal.

I wonder how many clients actually fit their GT2/3 and CGT with slick tyres but my assumtion is not many.

All but 2 of my Boxster autocross events where on DOT street legal track tires. While not real racing slick, they do provide considerably more grip than normal tires. I plan on doing the same with my 997 S, Should I be concerned or not.

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23-ago-2005 20:00:41

964C2: Expert; Loc: Dallas, TX , Estados Unidos; Posts: 1825, Gallery; Registrado desde: 11-may-2004; Reply to: Gary No Cal

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

Don't worry about autocrossing.....the issue is track driving with sustained high G cornering that can cause oil starvation problems. In autocrossing, the G's are not sustained and probably also not in DE's, when compared to flat-out road racing. Porsche Motorsports actually offered an "oil line mod" for the base 996.

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24-ago-2005 1:52:35

Gary No Cal: Junior; Loc: Calif. USA; Posts: 130, Gallery; Registrado desde: 19-may-2005; Reply to: frayed

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

I have had several conversations with my Porsche tech and salesman as well as reviewed the teck spec manual on this subject. They were interested in helping me clear this up because apparently there is some misunderstanding regarding the 996/986/997 oil sump system.

First the 997 is a dry sump system. True it does not have an external oil tank like older models, it has a separate tank that has been integrated into the bottom of the crankcase. Some race cars have it as part of the bell housing. This saves weight, reduces piping and is generally a superior set up. Additionally the new integrated dry sump system has several new features such as three separate oil pumps; an oil pressure pump in the crankcase and two additional oil return pumps in the cylinder heads. "This guarantees the oil supply even with high longitudinal and lateral acceleration".

The revised system also utilizes so called swirl pots to reduce defoming. The crankcase ventilation system has also been revised to take account of the increased requirements of the 3.8 liter motor. Bottom line is this is an improved dry sump system worthy of a Porsche road car.

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04-sep-2008 1:34:45

Cupcar: Newbie; Loc: USA; Posts: 2, Gallery; Registrado desde: 04-sep-2008; Reply to: Gary No Cal

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

Before 1965 when Porsche introduced the 911, they had two types of 356 cars those with a push-rod wet sump engine and those with the Carrera 4 cam dry-sump engine.

In 1965, with the introduction of the 911 Porsche, went to overhead cams and dry-sump lubrication for all cars.

Porsche returned to their 356 paradigm with a two car 911 line up when they introduced the GT3 after the 996. The 996 had a wet sump engine and the GT3 actually used the same dry-sump crankcase as the air-cooled cars.

So at this time they really returned to the past with a standard and racing model, but they did not really want anyone to tumble to this notion. They used marketing terms like "integrated dry-sump" to veil the fact that there were two very different flat six engines to be had.

Some above have said "so what" no other manufacturer makes race engines for their cars, fact is Porsche did and it became the soul of their cars and they still want you to think they have not changed...but they have.

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04-sep-2008 18:43:56

Minok: Co-Pilot; Loc: Pacific Northwest; Posts: 263, Gallery; Registrado desde: 29-jun-2008; Reply to: Cupcar

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

I really don't care one iota if they are making cars with the features they did in 1967. Whether the socalled dry-sump is inside the engine block or as an external tank doesn't really matter either, IF its a dry sump in both cases. Being external doesn't prevent the same lateral forces from acting on the external sump, as an internal one would receive. Being external doesn't gain the sump any mechanical advantages that could not also be built into the internal version.

What is of interest is the so-called disclaimer or warning in the 997 (is that the 997.2 or the older wet-sump 997.1?, if I got that right) manual indicating racing slicks are not to be used. Was that warning also in the manuals on the 993 base Carrera?

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05-sep-2008 1:07:17

Dan L: Expert; Loc: Santa Barbara, CA , Estados Unidos; Posts: 1957, Gallery; Registrado desde: 02-ene-2006; Reply to: Minok

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

Some of this will become moot as the Direct Injection engines are all returning to a dry sump system. (To know for sure you check your oil level with the engine idling,--vice before you crank it with the 'integrated' dry sumps).

It wasn't only cost savings to use an integrated dry sump in 996 and 997 engines (other than the GT3, and Turbos). Many owners of the past complained of oil leaks here and there. With Mobil 1 servicing these engines WANT to leak, but with a vast reduction in the oil lines and other plumbing they are considerably easier to live with.

Dan

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05-sep-2008 9:11:04

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Alemania; Posts: 8235, Gallery; Registrado desde: 02-jul-2004; Reply to: Dan L

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

I am happy to be corrected by better informed personnel but one has to remember that the engines up to the 993 were solely air-cooled. The oil system had to be specifically be set up for these circumstances, especially the external reservoir appears to be helpful to reduce the oil temperature. On top of that, most dry sump systems require a higher oil capacity which increases maintenance cost and needs to be warmed up properly before extracting the most out of the engine, or, in return, warm-up cycles are shortened with smaller oil reservoirs.

For the applications most Carrera owners use their car for the concept is absolutely sufficient, the weak points about this engine are not related to the oil lubrification system. However most enthusiasts will see this as a founded shortcoming.

Other than that, this topic has been launched three years ago. Where do you guys dig up those things?

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05-sep-2008 15:46:09

SonOfStig: Pilot; Loc: United Kingdom; Posts: 387, Gallery; Registrado desde: 28-may-2005; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

Yes my understanding is that the external dry sump system enables much better cooling which is why it is generally used in race situations. Also I understand the oil tanks have baffles to prevent sloshing so the pumps are never starved; I don't know if the 997 integrated dry sump has baffles.

Finally, of course, an external dry sump as opposed to the version of an integrated dry sump that the 997 uses means that the C of G of the engine can be kept lower - also critical for performance.

I'm not sure what the difference is between the high-G performance of the 997 lubrication system and that of the GTx's - perhaps the GTx's all have baffles and / or more than one draw point from the tank to prevent pump starvation.

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05-sep-2008 16:32:20

19th hole: Junior; Loc: on a golf course somewhere.... , Estados Unidos; Posts: 61, Gallery; Registrado desde: 17-dic-2004; Reply to: SonOfStig

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

From the 997.2 Webpage @ porscheusa.com

The purpose of integrated dry-sump lubrication is to guarantee a reliable oil supply while reducing engine temperatures, even in sportily driven cars.

The oil reservoir is located inside the engine, making an external tank unnecessary. Four oil pumps remove the oil from the cylinder heads directly into the oil sump. A fifth pump in the oil sump directly supplies the lubricating points in the engine.

To prevent foaming, the oil is channelled through cylinders known as swirlpots. In this way, optimum lubrication is guaranteed at all times and the oil pressure is always maintained at the necessary level in order to ensure, for example, that hydraulic valve clearance compensation remains fully functional - a condition that is crucial to the power and emission characteristics of the engine.

To reduce power losses and increase efficiency, an electronically controlled oil pump supplies the lubricating points inside the engine as and when required. This means that the oil pump does not work so hard when there is less demand for lubrication. The benefits of an on-demand oil supply system are optimum efficiency, increased fuel efficiency and lower exhaust emissions.

Single-jet spray nozzles cool the piston crowns with oil from the main lubrication circuit - another detailed solution that helps to reduce the thermal load on the engine.

For the engine, all of these detailed solutions mean a consistent supply of oil regardless of gravitational loads, even in the most demanding track conditions.

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05-sep-2008 23:51:53

Cupcar: Newbie; Loc: USA; Posts: 2, Gallery; Registrado desde: 04-sep-2008; Reply to: 19th hole

Re: Dry Sump vs. integrated dry sump?

Here is a diagram of the latest Porsche oiling system. Note that there is no scavenge pump for the crankcase as in a GT3. The text and language is mine. It looks to me as though the 4 pressure pumps drain the camshaft boxes from the drainage channels I have circled.

It looks to me as though there are two oil storage points cast into the crankcase and Porsche fills these somehow in a way that is not clear to me.

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