Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3 - Page1

Jul 25, 2003 10:46:09 AM

Whoppershine: Newbie; Loc: Cologne , Germany; Posts: 26, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 9, 2002

M3 CSL vs. GT3

Hi!

German Sport Auto Mag scored the M3 CSL 5 points higher than the new GT3.

The CSL beats the GT3 in Slalom-Speed (135km/h vs. 130 km/h) and "Ausweichtest" (157 vs. 149)

incl. perfect Sequential Shifting and 20000EUR less price.

Hmm ... unfortuneatly it has no Aura ( Charisma )

Michael

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Jul 25, 2003 1:26:02 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Whoppershine

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Quote:
Hi!

German Sport Auto Mag scored the M3 CSL 5 points higher than the new GT3.

The CSL beats the GT3 in Slalom-Speed (135km/h vs. 130 km/h) and "Ausweichtest" (157 vs. 149)

incl. perfect Sequential Shifting and 20000EUR less price.

Hmm ... unfortuneatly it has no Aura ( Charisma )

Michael

The M3 CSL performed very well, 4 seconds faster than the 996 GT3 on the Nordschleife.
BUT: the M3 CSL was equipped with semi-slicks and most of the impressive difference is due to the tires.

However, I agree: the M3 CSL delivers a great sports car for it's price tag but I'd always choose the GT3 over the M3 CSL for two reasons:
1. it is much easier to tune a GT3 (engine, suspension) for the track
2. durability (the E46 M3 engine doesn't have a very good record as far as I heard)

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Jul 25, 2003 2:33:30 PM

teflon: Co-Pilot; Loc: US , United States; Posts: 216, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 13, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

RC,

What were the times for the CSL and 996 GT3 on the Nordschleife? Who were the drivers? Thanks.

Greg A

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Jul 25, 2003 2:57:47 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: teflon

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Quote:
Who were the drivers?

Good point. I was thinking about the same thing, driver makes a big difference.

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Jul 25, 2003 3:07:03 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Curious to know times also - BTW 04 Corvette does sub-8 min.

http://www.corvettesbyrickdaniel.com/04Z15Z16.html

Not bad for $50k...

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Jul 25, 2003 3:11:00 PM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Quote:
the M3 CSL was equipped with semi-slicks and most of the impressive difference is due to the tires.

i haven't had a chance yet to read the article but if this is really true, it's IMO bad journalism to directly compare two cars with such different tires!!

and i always thought that sportauto is quite competent (and porsche-friendly

)

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Jul 25, 2003 3:49:21 PM

acky: Co-Pilot; Loc: Westerwald , Germany; Posts: 203, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 25, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

The sport tires are factory standard equipment for the CSL. So it's OK to test the car this way.

I think they will retest the GT3 with sport tires and then the GT3 will be 10 seconds faster than the BMW.

But neverless a very good performance for a 20k cheaper car.

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Jul 28, 2003 8:53:53 AM

rsv: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 180, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 7, 2002; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

the driver was the same: horst von saurma-jeltsch, a semi-pro who races the 24 h at the nürburgring every year.

the times:

Porsche GT2: 7:46 min.
BMW M3 CSL: 7:50 min.
Murcielago: 7:54 min. (?)
Porsche GT3: 7:54 min.
Porsche Turbo: 7:56 min.
Ferrari 360: 8:05 min.(?)
Ferrari 575: 8:08 min.(?)
Porsche 996: 8:15 min.
BMW M3: 8:22 min.

regarding the ferrari's and the murci's times, i'm not 100% sure but i'll validate them until tomorrow.

these times show the potential of the M3 CSL - it's not only the tires!

best
rsv

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Jul 28, 2003 11:39:06 AM

Thomas: Co-Pilot; Loc: DE, Munich; Posts: 172, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: rsv

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Quote:
these times show the potential of the M3 CSL - it's not only the tires!

I wonder what lap time a M3 CSL with regular tires would do. My guess is approx. 20 extra seconds.

Cheers
Thomas

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Jul 28, 2003 11:51:41 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: rsv

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Quote:
the driver was the same: horst von saurma-jeltsch, a semi-pro who races the 24 h at the nürburgring every year.

the times:

Porsche GT2: 7:46 min.
BMW M3 CSL: 7:50 min.
Murcielago: 7:54 min. (?)
Porsche GT3: 7:54 min.
Porsche Turbo: 7:56 min.
Ferrari 360: 8:05 min.(?)
Ferrari 575: 8:08 min.(?)
Porsche 996: 8:15 min.
BMW M3: 8:22 min.

regarding the ferrari's and the murci's times, i'm not 100% sure but i'll validate them until tomorrow.

these times show the potential of the M3 CSL - it's not only the tires!

best
rsv

Of course the M3 CSL has potential but the question is: for what purpose?
Can you get racing parts for the CSL from BMW?
Can you adapt the CSL's suspension system to different tracks?
Can you raise power by at least 30-40 HP without compromising reliability?

No doubt, the CSL is a highly interesting product and I'm sure it is fun to drive.
But for serious track racing, I'd always choose the GT3 for various (and obvious

) reasons.

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Jul 28, 2003 1:24:47 PM

rsv: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 180, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 7, 2002; Reply to: Thomas

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

In Antwort auf:
In Antwort auf:
these times show the potential of the M3 CSL - it's not only the tires!

I wonder what lap time a M3 CSL with regular tires would do. My guess is approx. 20 extra seconds.

Cheers
Thomas

so you think a GT3 with Michelin Pilot Cup-tires is able to do the nordschleife in 7:34 (20 secs. faster)?!?

come on...

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Jul 28, 2003 1:49:17 PM

Thomas: Co-Pilot; Loc: DE, Munich; Posts: 172, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: rsv

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
these times show the potential of the M3 CSL - it's not only the tires!

I wonder what lap time a M3 CSL with regular tires would do. My guess is approx. 20 extra seconds.

Cheers
Thomas

so you think a GT3 with Michelin Pilot Cup-tires is able to do the nordschleife in 7:34 (20 secs. faster)?!?

come on...

Why not? Have you ever tried regular vs. semi-slicks tires? In Mugello the difference in lap times is roughly 4 seconds.

Cheers
Thomas

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Aug 3, 2003 7:51:20 PM

MaxT: Co-Pilot; Loc: London and Milan; Posts: 265, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 9, 2002; Reply to: rsv

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
these times show the potential of the M3 CSL - it's not only the tires!

I wonder what lap time a M3 CSL with regular tires would do. My guess is approx. 20 extra seconds.

Cheers
Thomas

so you think a GT3 with Michelin Pilot Cup-tires is able to do the nordschleife in 7:34 (20 secs. faster)?!?

come on...

The CSL's time was already made with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup...With street legal tires I think that the time will probably be 8:10 or a little less! Now I will be waiting for Walter Rorhl's official time in the Nordschleife with the new GT3...

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Aug 3, 2003 11:02:18 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: MaxT

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Max - The Michelin Pilot Sport Cups are street legal even in the USA, where everything is illegal...

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Aug 4, 2003 10:42:10 AM

MaxT: Co-Pilot; Loc: London and Milan; Posts: 265, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 9, 2002; Reply to: Grant

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Quote:
Max - The Michelin Pilot Sport Cups are street legal even in the USA, where everything is illegal...

Sorry...you are right! Street legal for me are tyres like Pilot Sport or Pzero Rosso but it's true that Pilot Sport Cup are street legal everywhere!

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Aug 5, 2003 8:35:37 AM

Yargk: Pilot; Loc: SF Bay Area, CA, USA; Posts: 486, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2003; Reply to: Whoppershine

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Despite the (earned) horrible reputation of the US DOT (department of transportation), there are many "competition" type tyres that are street legal. However, many of these are not usable because their treadwear is measured in heat cycles, not miles. In other words, they don't last long enough to make street driving possible. Tirerack.com shows the difference between competition tyres (like hoosiers, and now pilot sport cups) and maximum performance tyres (like regular pilot sports, g-forces, and the like) by using those apt category names just mentioned. The pilot sport cup is a special tire because now you can actually get a competition type tyre that will last long (comparatively) on the street.

The difference between competition tyres and maximum performance street tyres on a 2 minute course is measured in seconds (at least 2, probably, but there are other factors obviously). I could only guess the difference on an 8 minute course (ofcourse I could multiply by four, but everything depends on the course, so it's not so simple). So even though the cup tire is streetable, it still has the performance of the competition tires and it is not really correct to compare two different cars if one of them as the cups and the other does not.

Was the 7:54 time for the gt3, the time for the old GT3?

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Aug 5, 2003 8:39:56 AM

Yargk: Pilot; Loc: SF Bay Area, CA, USA; Posts: 486, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Quote:
Can you raise power by at least 30-40 HP without compromising reliability?

Can you do this with the GT3? How? I'm very interested.

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Aug 5, 2003 7:18:56 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Yargk

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Quote:
Was the 7:54 time for the gt3, the time for the old GT3?

No, its the new one, the old Mk1-GT3's time was 7:56.
That was a good explanation about the pilot cup's BTW

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Aug 5, 2003 7:27:22 PM

RR4: Senior; Loc:; Posts: 608, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 7, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Yargk,

you can easily tune the GT3 with the induction system they use on the GT3RS cars.
That induction system uses 6 throttle control valves (one for each cylinder) rather than one for all 6 cylinders.

Tech art is doing work on their 2003GT3 right now.

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Aug 5, 2003 8:48:12 PM

Yargk: Pilot; Loc: SF Bay Area, CA, USA; Posts: 486, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2003; Reply to: RR4

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Quote:
Yargk,

you can easily tune the GT3 with the induction system they use on the GT3RS cars.
That induction system uses 6 throttle control valves (one for each cylinder) rather than one for all 6 cylinders.

Tech art is doing work on their 2003GT3 right now.

Very, very cool, I can't wait to hear the results.

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Aug 6, 2003 5:00:24 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: RR4

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Quote:
Yargk,

you can easily tune the GT3 with the induction system they use on the GT3RS cars.
That induction system uses 6 throttle control valves (one for each cylinder) rather than one for all 6 cylinders.

Tech art is doing work on their 2003GT3 right now.

This is one of the reasons why I think the GT3 (RS) is the better deal, even if more expensive than the M3.

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Aug 6, 2003 5:10:27 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: RC

Aug 6, 2003 7:49:01 PM

330: Veteran; Loc: Italy; Posts: 985, Gallery; Registered on: May 19, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Here are two nice pictures

M3 CSL

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Aug 6, 2003 7:50:39 PM

330: Veteran; Loc: Italy; Posts: 985, Gallery; Registered on: May 19, 2003; Reply to: 330

Re: Here are two nice pictures

???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
M3 GTR

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Aug 7, 2003 12:10:34 AM

JP66: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Seattle , United States; Posts: 2217, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 10, 2003; Reply to: 330

Re:

I wish Porsche would come out with new headlights, something "aggressive" looking like that M3. Perhaps replacing the current lights with the C-GT lights.

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Aug 13, 2003 10:47:00 PM

Flying_Dutchman: Pilot; Loc: European Union BE BXL , Belgium; Posts: 301, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 13, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Nice competition!

Cannot wait to see Röhrls performance. GT3 would be my next choice, no doubt, even if Beemers bite of a few seconds laptime.

I considered the M3 before acquiring my Porsche. M3s great selling point, apart from price, is the SMG II system, which IMO procures an awesome driving sensation. Extended rumours about engine reliability issues (until MY 2002 builds) however comforted me in deciding for the 911.

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Aug 13, 2003 11:52:46 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: Flying_Dutchman

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

"Perhaps replacing the current lights with the C-GT lights. "

not sure that would go over very well with CGT owners.

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Aug 15, 2003 7:52:26 PM

last911: Newbie; Loc: Morton, Illinois , United States; Posts: 19, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 15, 2003; Reply to: rsv

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Given the length and nature of this track, are these test numbers the definitve story? Are they the fastest of say 20 laps the driver did over the course? Quite frankly, a few seconds difference (out of a nearly 8 minute lap) on different days under different conditions hardly represents a repeatable test. You can make anything you want out of these results.

Cheers,

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Aug 19, 2003 4:31:02 PM

srfr66: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 9, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 23, 2003; Reply to: Yargk

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

I can tell you on my own experience that CSL can give you more fun but GT3 is a better sport car

Cheers
SM

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Aug 19, 2003 4:53:30 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: srfr66

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Quote:

I considered the M3 before acquiring my Porsche. M3s great selling point, apart from price, is the SMG II system, which IMO procures an awesome driving sensation. Extended rumours about engine reliability issues (until MY 2002 builds) however comforted me in deciding for the 911.

My cousin's E46 M3 is on its third (3rd!) engine.

Oh well, at least it's going strong

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M3 CSL vs. GT3

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Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Curious to know times also - BTW 04 Corvette does sub-8 min.

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Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Re: M3 CSL vs. GT3

Here are two nice pictures

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