Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna? - Page1

Jul 1, 2005 1:32:44 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

I tried to attach some C4S pictures. I've never seen them before. They're on the Auto Spies site.

Check out this 2 tone Red and Black interior.
http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=4856

There's also a cool article:
http://www.autospies.com/article/index.asp?articleId=4868

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Jul 1, 2005 1:59:38 PM

Gaz: Co-Pilot; Loc: London, England; Posts: 246, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 4, 2004; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

I was trying to work these pics out when I saw them over "in the other place" (Flat6). I think the interior must be two-tone black/terracotta.

I was confused becaue the seats were terracotta, but the steering wheel was black.

Interesting huh?

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Jul 1, 2005 2:24:22 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: Gaz

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

I'd like to see these pics.
What other place are you talking about ? RENNTEAM is the best site around so I'm sure a mention doesn't matter.

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Jul 1, 2005 7:31:09 PM

Gaz: Co-Pilot; Loc: London, England; Posts: 246, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 4, 2004; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

You can see the two-tone here:

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Jul 1, 2005 7:32:38 PM

Gaz: Co-Pilot; Loc: London, England; Posts: 246, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 4, 2004; Reply to: Gaz

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

and here:

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Jul 1, 2005 8:01:39 PM

MMD: Rennteam VIP; Loc: usa; Posts: 9652, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Gaz

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

I heard the C4S front end handling is alot less precise than the C2S. THAT in itself is supposed to make you think twice about getting the C4. Just repeating what I heard, any truth to this?

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Jul 2, 2005 9:09:49 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8235, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: MMD

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

According to Porsche engineers and from my own understanding the C4 models are more "on the safe side". Besides the fact that they have a brake modification, that was initially introduced in Mercedes cars, the wider track and tires at the rear axle help high-speed stability and traction. The only situation that this configuration might be critical is heavy rain (hydroplaning) and maybe snow due to the wider contact patch of the rear tires. The stabilizer bar up front is softer than on the 2WD model since the rear axle prevents body roll effectively.

I can't comment on the understeering issue but the higher weight up front might contribute to this - on the other hand the more even weight distribution might improve handling on the limit.

The first C4 (964) was famous for its massive understeer, very much on the safe side but not appreciated by the customers.

Germany's SportAuto mentioned that the 996 C4 had a more relaxed and safety-inspiring handling at the limit.

I personally would wait for first serious magazine reviews, if this issue is too important to you! The C2S does have a very pleasant handling allready, is cheaper and faster and should be fine for most users. The invention of PSM really helps a lot on these performance cars!

My 02 cents!

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Jul 3, 2005 7:27:59 PM

Hurst: Veteran; Loc: Potomac, MD; Posts: 1255, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 15, 2005; Reply to: ALDO

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Quote:
mumbasic said:
Quote:
Hurst said:
I never understood the concept behind the C4S. A 4 wheel drive super-sports car is just not my idea of reasonable. 4WD < 2WD around a track. No questions. Granted, I own an A4, I would never buy a C4S...If I had weather problems where I lived, I would get a Cayenne or something of that variety.

The Gallardo shows us how fast a awd car can be (3 seconds faster then Porsche GT2 on Hockenheim with near the same power). We had have a lot of discussions what is faster on race track. An AWD is faster for an amateur a rwd could be faster for a profi. I don't know if you are a profi or not.

AM

I'm no pro, but I'm also not a fan of understeer. I drive sports cars for pleasure and I believe you can derive more puristic driving pleasure from a RWD car over a 4WD car anyday.

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Jul 3, 2005 9:25:04 PM

jjr1: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 213, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2002; Reply to: Hurst

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

I would definitely go for the C4S if you want a slower car (heavier), a less entertaining car (handling wise it will understeer like a bugger), a higher priced car or non sports car.

Otherwise I would go for a C2S

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Jul 4, 2005 1:26:45 PM

ALDO: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany, Black Forrest , Germany; Posts: 3078, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: jjr1

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Quote:
jjr1 said:
I would definitely go for the C4S if you want a slower car (heavier), a less entertaining car (handling wise it will understeer like a bugger), a higher priced car or non sports car.

Otherwise I would go for a C2S

All the latest tests in German car magazines tell a different story. They all (no one magazine has written oposite) that you could not realize a difference. The AWD is working 5% front and 95% back. The 5% are mechanical bound (without visco). The visco will transfer only to the front in case you are loosing grip at the rear axle.

Why do you want to loose grip?
Isn't it better to get the lost grip to the front tires?

AM

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Jul 4, 2005 2:02:11 PM

jjr1: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 213, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2002; Reply to: ALDO

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Autocar here tested it in the UK and said it was less fun and less involving but great if you really live in a very poor climate ie lots of snow/ice.

For those of us in milder climates I just can not see the point of a 4wd sports car.

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Jul 4, 2005 3:03:39 PM

ALDO: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany, Black Forrest , Germany; Posts: 3078, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: jjr1

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Hmmh, that's new for me.

Walter Röhrl said, that the 4S will not be slower on the Nordschleife then the 2S. But Walter gets money for saying this

. I mean he is paid by Porsche.

The best is to test drive both car and then to decide. Understeering is something I wouldn't like to have.

AM

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Jul 4, 2005 3:05:04 PM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14193, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: jjr1

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

The french and Swiss magazines also mention hardly any difference between the 997C2S and 997 C4S , exept in hair pins or slippery surface where you can feel the front pulling you into the direction of the front wheels. In normal haevy driving you can' t feel the difference . It looks like they have much improved the 997 C4/S handling compared to 996.
Walter Rohlr did a faster lap time on the Nurburgring with the 997 C4S with sports chassis and PCCB ( 7'56'') then with the 1999 GT3 !!

So, this car is NOT a fat cat like some think!!!

Anyway...I have one on order but I do admit that every second day I think about calling my dealer to change my order to the C2S... I have tried the C2S and loved it. I have tried the 996C4S and didn't like it... I have tried the 996C4 and liked it... I would like to try the 997 C4S, but will not be possible before I get my car...

and then ...I better be 100% happy... so... hanging onto these exellent comments comming now from the car testers

My reason to hang on the C4s is that I have not owned a carrera before, I tend to drive to the limits

, roads in Switzerland in fall and winter can be pretty slippery so I imagine the extra safety of the 997C4S could help ( I just hope I will not gain safety to FUN )
It was going to be my main car all year around , but have now deceided I will anyway get a small cheap car for the days I don't want the attention or when too much snow.

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Jul 4, 2005 3:09:40 PM

ALDO: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany, Black Forrest , Germany; Posts: 3078, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: Gnil

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Quote:
gnil said:
The french and Swiss magazines also mention hardly any difference between the 997C2S and 997 C4S , exept in hair pins or slippery surface where you can feel the front pulling you into the direction of the front wheels. In normal haevy driving you can' t feel the difference . It looks like they have much improved the 997 C4/S handling compared to 996.
Walter Rohlr did a faster lap time on the Nurburgring with the 997 C4S with sports chassis and PCCB ( 7'56'') then with the 1999 GT3 !!
So, this car is NOT a fat cat like some think!!!

Anyway...I have one on order but I do admit that every second day I think about calling my dealer to change my order to the C2S... I have tried the C2S and loved it. I have tried the 996C4S and didn't like it... I have tried the 996C4 and liked it... I would like to try the 997 C4S, but will not be possible before I get my car... and then ...I better be 100% happy... so... hanging onto these exellent comments comming now from the car testers
My reason to hang on the C4s is that I have not owned a carrera before, I tend to drive to the limits , roads in Switzerland in fall and winter can be pretty slippery so I imagine the extra safety of the 997C4S could help ( I just hope I will not gain safety to FUN )
It was going to be my main car all year around , but have now deceided I will anyway get a small cheap car for the days I don't want the attention or when too much snow.

Where did you read 7'56" with 997 4S and sport suspension?

AM

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Jul 4, 2005 3:28:36 PM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14193, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: ALDO

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Quote:
mumbasic said:
Quote:
gnil said:
The french and Swiss magazines also mention hardly any difference between the 997C2S and 997 C4S , exept in hair pins or slippery surface where you can feel the front pulling you into the direction of the front wheels. In normal haevy driving you can' t feel the difference . It looks like they have much improved the 997 C4/S handling compared to 996.
Walter Rohlr did a faster lap time on the Nurburgring with the 997 C4S with sports chassis and PCCB ( 7'56'') then with the 1999 GT3 !!
So, this car is NOT a fat cat like some think!!!

Anyway...I have one on order but I do admit that every second day I think about calling my dealer to change my order to the C2S... I have tried the C2S and loved it. I have tried the 996C4S and didn't like it... I have tried the 996C4 and liked it... I would like to try the 997 C4S, but will not be possible before I get my car... and then ...I better be 100% happy... so... hanging onto these exellent comments comming now from the car testers
My reason to hang on the C4s is that I have not owned a carrera before, I tend to drive to the limits , roads in Switzerland in fall and winter can be pretty slippery so I imagine the extra safety of the 997C4S could help ( I just hope I will not gain safety to FUN )
It was going to be my main car all year around , but have now deceided I will anyway get a small cheap car for the days I don't want the attention or when too much snow.

Where did you read 7'56" with 997 4S and sport suspension?

AM

In the last RS magazine ( french) The journalist got the info during the tests in Monte Carlo

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Jul 4, 2005 3:30:04 PM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14193, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: Gnil

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

..oh and NOT sport suspension, but sport chassis ( -20mm)

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Jul 4, 2005 3:35:10 PM

ALDO: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany, Black Forrest , Germany; Posts: 3078, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: Gnil

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Quote:
gnil said:
..oh and NOT sport suspension, but sport chassis ( -20mm)

Regardless, does this mean 4S is as fast as 2S? That would be a wonderfull message.

AM

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Jul 4, 2005 7:04:59 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21158, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: ALDO

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

There is no way, I repeat no way, that the 997C4S can lap the Nurburgring faster than its RWD variant. Walter Rohrl did an official 7:59 with the 997C2S with Sport Chasis, so either he could do it faster (unlikely since that is already an incredibla time) or the 7:56 lap time for the AWD version is BS, the latter most likely since the AWD version shares same engine, suspensions, brakes, tire compounds, etc. except that it has viscous-coupling AWD which is always penalty in track lap times. Just to give an example, the 996C4 (not 996C4S) was 6 seconds slower than the 996C2 (same engine, suepsnion, tires, etc).

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Jul 4, 2005 7:10:44 PM

ALDO: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany, Black Forrest , Germany; Posts: 3078, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

I was also surprised. Even if the AWD doesn't have any negative influence, the car is still 55 kg heavier.

But who knows

I have read in some german magazines, that the 4S will break better (??) and have some suspension optimizations (???)(compared to the 2S). The magazines are not of the famous sort, so I ignored this informations. But could this be the explanation

AM

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Jul 4, 2005 9:02:28 PM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14193, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: ALDO

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

In the article it mentions that it was done with a C4S with PCCB , the gain being 3'' on the ring due mainly to less non suspended weight.
So... was the time done in the C2S without PCCB ?

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Jul 4, 2005 9:06:18 PM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14193, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: Gnil

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

..and it also says that Walter did a lap time of 8'02'' on a 997 C4S with PASM on normal and 7'59'' on sports mode...
Who knows if all these info on lap times are acurate.....
Waiting for other tests to see...

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Jul 4, 2005 9:10:59 PM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14193, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: Gnil

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

....better grip due to the larger back and tyres has also been mention a few times . Could that help on the ring?

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Jul 4, 2005 9:53:25 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21158, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Gnil

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

None of these hypothetical factors is going to make up the penalty of the AWD's less sportier handling, increased weight and greater power loss to the wheels in a lap time around the 20km ring vs the RWD version.

But it reaaly doesn't matter that the AWD is a few seconds slower in the ring in my view, its close enough for the mortals and even more so in the hands of normal Porsche owners who are not going to be able to extract as much potential from the RWD vs the AWD like a pro like Walter Rohrl can. So in reality the difference is less. So I don't think performance is a good reason to choose between these two versions, in my opinion the deciding factor between RWD and AWD is not performance but rather a factor of easier-to-drive-more-grip AWD vs sportier-handling-purer RWD. Two great options to choose from.

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Jul 5, 2005 6:36:10 AM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14193, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
So I don't think performance is a good reason to choose between these two versions, in my opinion the deciding factor between RWD and AWD is not performance but rather a factor of easier-to-drive-more-grip AWD vs sportier-handling-purer RWD. Two great options to choose from.

I totaly agree with you.... two great cares with some different options...just that they are getting very close one to another, the C2 having such improved traction, improved PSM and the C4 feeling more and more ( according to reviews) like a C2.....

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Jul 5, 2005 9:24:18 AM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14193, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: Gnil

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

CARLOS : If you would have to do it again, would you start with the C4, learn how to drive it properly and then get the C2 ( like you did) or would you now go straight to the C2 ?

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Jul 5, 2005 10:56:12 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21158, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Gnil

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Hmmmm... If I had to do it again I think would go straight for the C2 instead of the C4.

But I'm not regreting getting the C4, I was a great car (sporty with 18" and the M030 sport chasis) and maybe I did need the AWD without knowing it in some close call situations, I don't think so but who knows... but overall I think I would have been better off with the C2, and even more so if you think that for the price of AWD I could of gotten the Powerkit for the C2.
Now, I'm definately not going back to AWD though, unless its a Turbo or something, with over 450HP, then I would maybe take the compromise AWD for controlling all that power more effectively in the streets, but not in a Carrera.

Bottom line gnil, you can't go wrong with either choice, I know you will be happy with either one, and won't regret getting any of the two.

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Jul 5, 2005 11:12:43 AM

Gnil: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: VD, Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 14193, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 11, 2005; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

...thanks for your comments....

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Jul 7, 2005 12:55:09 AM

Vrocks: Newbie; Loc: PA, USA; Posts: 1, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 13, 2005; Reply to: Gnil

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

If the C4 raced a C2 over a series of laps the 4wd would eventually pay off. 4WD is definitely an advantage in endurance racing, or if the track gets slick.

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Jul 7, 2005 2:35:17 AM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: ALDO

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

I don't understand why a car with power flowing to the front wheels - the steering wheels - would UNDERsteer.

Wouldn't the power to those wheels help to pull the front of the car in the wheel direction?

I imagine the answer is that less power to the rear wheels means less throttle steering of the rear of the car, or have I go it all wrong?

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Jul 7, 2005 6:08:12 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21158, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: 997 Carrera S or 997 C4S.... Dilemna?

Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
I don't understand why a car with power flowing to the front wheels - the steering wheels - would UNDERsteer.

Silver Bullet, the answer is because in RWD cars, the front wheel's available traction is dedicated exclusively to steering the car and making it turn, but in an AWD car, the front wheels also have to share that available traction for steering with applying torque to the ground, therefore more traction is used up and the limit of the traction of the front wheels is more likely to be reached in an AWD causing it to understeer more. The front wheels' grip are under higher stress becuase they have to steer and push, hence the tend to understeer more.

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