Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: M97 engine - Page1

Jun 25, 2005 7:54:53 PM

jlr: Junior; Loc: Birmingham, Alabama; Posts: 123, Gallery; Registered on: May 15, 2005

M97 engine

There have been some recent threads in regards to the differences between the 3.6 in th GT3/turbo application and the 3.8 of the 997s. If I'm correct, the dry sump (3.6) is superior to wet sump in high g situations, but in terms of overall strength and reliability, how is the M97 going to fare versus the 3.6 dry sump? Recently, I contacted someone from RUF in regards to their supercharger and they said that RUF is deliberately holding down the power to 425hp on their 997S SC due to reliability concerns. What do folks here feel is the horsepower limit for the M97 in terms of reliability?

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Jun 25, 2005 8:04:13 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: jlr

Re: M97 engine

The 3.8L 997S engine comes from the 996's 3.4L & 3.6L engines, and the Boxster engines. This wet sump family of engines (integrated dry sump = wet sump) was not designed for force induction since it was designed for the N/A Carreras and Boxsters. So its not the best basis for adding a supercharger or Turbocharger since its tolerances were not made for this use unlike like the dry-sump GT1-block, which is the one the 996 Turbo uses for that reason, and you can mod this engine to eternity.

So supercharging or turbocharging a carrera/boxster is playing with dice, and who really knows what the reliable power limit is, IMO its the factory limit or at least the typical chip/header/exhaust N/A mods, but force induction is really taking your chances on this engine, tunners will say otherwise but they want to sell.

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Jun 25, 2005 9:25:49 PM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: M97 engine

Carlos,

Do you surmise that for more power, the 997TT will use a 3.8L dry-sump engine based on the 996TT's 3.6L with the 997TT"S" getting even more power from even greater displacement or rather from larger compressors with enhanced intercoolers for greater psi, or from both?

Thanks.

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Jun 25, 2005 10:12:14 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8633, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: M97 engine

The M96 engine also has limited growth potential due to its cooling efficiency.

You can only bore out its cylinders to a certain point. The coolant jacket walls are pretty thin even in the 3.6 liter version, and would be thinner yet in a 3.8, and as we all know, heat is the enemy of HP.

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Jun 25, 2005 10:12:53 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Turbo Al

Re: M97 engine

I would think that they will keep displacement the same and increase power via alterating the softaware and the turbos, since its much easier, cheaper and efficient that way in the force induced engine, you can already get 500HP easy from the 996TT engine with a few simple mods. So my guess is that they will keep the 997TT engine the dry-sump 3.6L, probably very simlar to the current GT2's, and a few more squeezed HP for the 997TTS. Not a problem for that engine.

In the N/A carrera engine however since there is only so much you can do with injection, header, exhausts, etc, you have to inevitably reach for greater displacement at some point instead which becomes more expensive and less productive that modifying a turboed-engine which can reach much higher bhp per liter.

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Jun 25, 2005 11:52:57 PM

Silver Bullet: Veteran; Loc: Canada; Posts: 1126, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 24, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: M97 engine

Has it been confirmed that the M97 will be the basis for the 997 GT3 and 997 Turbo?

If so, I think that will likely add to the value of 996 GT3's over the years, as this is relatively rare "bare bones" (so to speak) normally aspirated 911 will be the last to carry the bullet proof race winning GT1 derived beaut.

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Jun 26, 2005 12:04:11 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Silver Bullet

Re: M97 engine

Quote:
Silver Bullet said:
Has it been confirmed that the M97 will be the basis for the 997 GT3 and 997 Turbo?

If so, I think that will likely add to the value of 996 GT3's over the years, as this is relatively rare "bare bones" (so to speak) normally aspirated 911 will be the last to carry the bullet proof race winning GT1 derived beaut.

After talking to "somebody" today, I think the 997 Turbo gets the "old" 996 Turbo engine design, NOT based on the M97.
A 3.8 (instead of 3.6) displacement may be possible too, the power of the 997 Turbo seems to be confirmed: 480 HP. Everybody I asked about this power figure actually acknowledged it with a smile or with a couple of seconds of silence.

480 HP is a good indication for the "old" engine design.
Especially since there will be a Turbo S and GT2 too again.

Regarding the GT3, I don't know yet. It may be an engine based on the M97S (powerkit) engine. Honestly, I don't know yet, I hear a lot of confusing information. I have a few precise details but I'm really afraid to post them because they may unveil our source(s).
Logically, the new 997 GT3 should get the "old" engine design.
Theoretically, the M97 would be OK too because it has been refined, improved and made more durable. Up to 400 HP and slightly more shouldn't be a problem with this engine, the 381 HP powerkit proves it.
But I still think that Porsche HAS to use the "old" engine design on the 997 GT3 because of reputation and track capability with slicks.
However, I didn't really hear of any lubrification problems on the M97 engine and the regular warnings using slicks didn't make their way to customers/dealers/etc. either.

I'm pretty sure that we'll have some more details about the 997 GT3 available around end of July. Hopefully.

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Jun 26, 2005 2:04:50 AM

Turbo Al: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Rochester, New York , United States; Posts: 2531, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 3, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: M97 engine

Carlos and RC,

Good stuff. If we think, then, that the 997 Turbo variants use tweaked versions of the 996 Turbo engines, and if the 997TCoupe/Cab gets 480HP as suspected, based on 996T specs summarized below, do the thereafter estimated #'s for the 997T's seem tenable?

996TT(all 3.6L):
TCoupe/Cab:
415lb-ft torque(@2,700-4,600rpm)
415hp(@6,000rpm)

TSCoupe/Cab:
457lb-ft torque(@3,500-4,500rpm)
444hp(@5,700rpm)

GT2:
472lb-ft torque(@3,500-4,500rpm)
477hp(@5,700rpm)

997TT(?3.6 and/or 3.8L):
TCoupe/Cab:
480lb-ft torque
480hp

TSCoupe/Cab:
525lb-ft torque
510hp

GT2:
540lb-ft torque
540hp

Not that I want to spread any crazy and unsubstantiated internet rumours. . . .

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Jun 26, 2005 9:41:38 PM

STRADALE: Rennteam VIP; Loc: NY , United States; Posts: 11075, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 9, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: M97 engine

From what I have heard the 997TT will get the 3.8. Can't wait to find out for sure.

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Jun 30, 2005 12:36:05 PM

turbolite: Veteran; Loc: Switzerland , Switzerland; Posts: 1012, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 26, 2004; Reply to: STRADALE

Re: M97 engine

Guys, I KNOW that the turbo will be a 3.8. so let's stop speculating on the displacement. The question is, which engine will they use. costs speak for the 997 engine, reliability and power for the dry sump one..

cheers

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Jun 30, 2005 12:41:39 PM

Super Darius: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Italy-Como , Italy; Posts: 4084, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 7, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: M97 engine

Quote:
RC said:

I'm pretty sure that we'll have some more details about the 997 GT3 available around end of July. Hopefully.

Mee too..

there will be a meeting in Weissach in July....really important for the Gt3..true??

ciaoo

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