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    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Is it questionable simply because a U.S. magazine did it? That's just stupid.



    Fair comment.

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Any suggestion that it's false, just because it's not a pinky-wagging Euro rag, is laughable.



    I'm struggling here boss. So to dismiss it out of hand from a US mag "is just stupid", and to deny it any authenticity cos it's not in a "pinky-wagging Euro rag is laughable"??

    Chill out mate. I for one find the Clarkson pantomine of Porsche critique worthless, but the entire cannon of Euro car reviews can hardly be dismissed so easily. Can it?

    br d

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    Quote:
    SVNSVN said:


    FWIW, 69bossnine- I really appreciate and enjoy your contribution to this forum.



    yeah I agree with the agreeing. Youre great and fun to have around 69bosnine!

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    I really liked this Road & Track article. I had a major argument with my father-in-law over this 0-60, 3.9s time. He couldn't believe the 997S beat his beloved Corvette. He dismissed it outright and said that Porsche probably paid off Road & Track. Never mind that the Corvette won the overall "Best All-Around Sportscar" title.

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    ...Never mind that the Corvette won the overall "Best All-Around Sportscar" title.



    Almost beaten by the Boxster!

    Anyways, I have to acknowledge Chevy for their development, at least one GM product I would accept to be seen in. The interior still looks hideous though!

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    ...Never mind that the Corvette won the overall "Best All-Around Sportscar" title.



    Almost beaten by the Boxster!

    Anyways, I have to acknowledge Chevy for their development, at least one GM product I would accept to be seen in. The interior still looks hideous though!



    Yeah, I have to take some issue with the article. If they didn't factor in the cost (which is 1/3 of the total points), the 911 and Boxster would have finished 1-2.

    Re: 997 S - Zero to 60 mph in 3.9 sec

    Quote:
    964C2 said:
    I would think the actual numbers are real and not a fabrication....the question should be what kind of abuse did the cars take to achieve some of those numbers.



    Probably about the same as most other sports cars are subjected to by magazine testors. There's no reason to believe this test was any more harsh vs. other 0-60 tests. These guys are never gentle when gunning for the very best times they can possibly get, in a car that isn't their's. They test the vast majority of sports cars the same way, driving the cars like they stole them.

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    I really liked this Road & Track article. I had a major argument with my father-in-law over this 0-60, 3.9s time. He couldn't believe the 997S beat his beloved Corvette. He dismissed it outright and said that Porsche probably paid off Road & Track. Never mind that the Corvette won the overall "Best All-Around Sportscar" title.



    The Corvette WITH PRICE AS A MAJOR FACTOR, won. The 997 S had the best score of the entire test till they factored in something like 200 points for price which is ridiculous if you ask me. The test isn't titled ; 'Best All-Around Sportscar for THE MONEY'.

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    ...Never mind that the Corvette won the overall "Best All-Around Sportscar" title.



    Almost beaten by the Boxster!

    Anyways, I have to acknowledge Chevy for their development, at least one GM product I would accept to be seen in. The interior still looks hideous though!



    Yeah, I have to take some issue with the article. If they didn't factor in the cost (which is 1/3 of the total points), the 911 and Boxster would have finished 1-2.



    YUP !

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    My euro-rag comment was simply a gratuitous stab-back at those who, usually with blind bias and disdain for most things American, stereotype U.S. auto rags regardless of how meritorious they may be. Nobody said I had to play fair or nice, I'll sling mud with the best of them . In reality, I've got nothing against the European magazines. I just made the comment for the sake of what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

    The bottom line is that 0-60 is a silly measurement to discuss for high-powered cars. The better the power-to-weight ratio, the more 0-60 becomes a function of weight transfer, gearing, and ultimate traction. Yes, 3.9 seconds is Enzo territory. But who's to say, with it's race-stiff chassis setup, that an Enzo isn't a wheel-spinning mess, or a prone-to-bogging cluster-f***, launching it from a dead start. If an Enzo had it's engine sitting squarely over it's drive wheels, and it had more suspension compliance allowing nose-lift and tail-squat for ultimate downforce on the tires, who's to say you couldn't break into the 2-second range 0-60 with an Enzo?? In a high-powered car with street tires, 0-60 is a culmination of MANY MANY factors, horsepower and weight being only one of them. That is why I post with so much venom on these 0-60 debates, because it's often like listening to a typical crowd at Hooters Wing House debate quantum physics. I'm not referring to anyone here in specific, I'm just saying that on a Porsche forum packed full of mostly road-racing fans, there doesn't seem to be many who give credit to the chassis (where most of the credit is really due) for good 0-60 times. I've seen a properly set-up Pinto hole-shot exotics to 60 mph at the race-track. Also, a VW Beetle that used to run high 10-second 1/4 mile times, at only 112-114 mph, the same terminal speed as a 997S, simply because of it's herculean chassis and gearing setup making things rip in the 1st 60 feet. I would love it if we could take 0-60, and 0-62, whatever, and leave it to the Miata and Civic forums where it truly belongs. Seacrest out...

    And yep, the Corvette only won with the price factored in. It's a good car for the money, but it doesn't communicate like a 911. Glad I could afford the step-up.

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    That is why I post with so much venom on these 0-60 debates, because it's often like listening to a typical crowd at Hooters Wing House debate quantum physics.



    Yeah, I love it when they start discussing the metaphysical implications of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle...LOL...

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    The act of drinking beer at Hooters illustrates that principle perfectly....

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    Bossnine, I would just like to second what SVNSVN said, I really enjoy reading your posts.

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    Guhhh, uhhh huh-huh-huh, AWE SHUCKS!! huh-huh, you're KILLIN ME!! guh-huhh!

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    You have to have the HP to make real good 0-60 times but an overload can sometimes hurt. Look at the SL55 vs. the SL65.

    I was reading the Road & Track article last night on the 430 and they got 3.5 sec. 0-60.

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    Very true stradale, i think the 65 has TOO much power for the car a) it's too light at the rear b) the tires aren't wide enough for sufficient traction on pull away.

    ps. is your 997 run in yet? if so, it is too troublesome to ask for a short clip of your PSE in action with the hose disconnected? for example pull away from stand still? if not, than no worries!

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    My S351 Saleen weighs approximately 3600 lbs, and has 507 h.p.. The torque curve looks similar to a Cummins Diesel. It has 295/35-18 Michelin Pilots, and a 3.55 Torsen diff. Zero-to-60, my 997S would absolutely wallop it. Why?? The Saleen is nose-heavy, and stiffly sprung. It also has a gorilla-sized 1.5 inch diameter front anti-sway bar that keeps the front end from lifting as well. You add it all together, and it has LOUSY weight transfer at launch, which means the rear tires just spin and spin until you get past 50-60 mph and shift to 3rd gear. Sure, you can modulate the throttle in the lower gears, but because of its inability to pin all the car's weight onto the rear tires, you can't get enough power to the ground to stay with a car like the 997S. It's a barrel of monkeys full of fun to drive, because you feel like you're at the helm of satan's chariot, and the ease at which it boils 295 rubber is just plain exhilerating.... but 0-60 is just a joke. It's the small amount of time that the kid in the nitrous oxide injected Honda next to you mistakenly thinks that he stands a chance of winning the drag race, LOL!!!!.

    Anyhow, thus illustrating how comparing 0-60 times between very powerful cars using limited information is ridiculous. My Saleen would be hard-pressed to do it quicker than 5 seconds. But AFTER 60 mph, it would steam after my Porsche and reel it in. But then, when aerodynamics started to play a part, it's a wind-brick in comparison and probably would not be able to out-leg the Porsche! LOL!!!!

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    Very true stradale, i think the 65 has TOO much power for the car a) it's too light at the rear b) the tires aren't wide enough for sufficient traction on pull away.

    ps. is your 997 run in yet? if so, it is too troublesome to ask for a short clip of your PSE in action with the hose disconnected? for example pull away from stand still? if not, than no worries!



    Mike,
    Not run-in yet. Almost 1000miles since picking it up 16 days ago.
    I'd really love to give you a sound clip but I have no idea how to get one posted.

    btw: A buddy and I were out cruizing on our Harley' s this weekend when we came up on an Black SL55. Since I was in the lead and there was no traffic on the highway we were on, I spent about 15 minutes riding along-side and behind the car. The guy had his top down. What nice lines. Beautiful car.

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    yes this current model of the SL has really beautiful lines(especially when the car is in black), thanks for the compliment btw when your car is run in, it's easy, just need a digital camera which can take video clips and you can upload the video at www.megaupload.com

    thanks stradale!

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    My euro-rag comment was simply a gratuitous stab-back at those who, usually with blind bias and disdain for most things American, stereotype U.S. auto rags regardless of how meritorious they may be. Nobody said I had to play fair or nice, I'll sling mud with the best of them . In reality, I've got nothing against the European magazines. I just made the comment for the sake of what's good for the goose is good for the gander.



    Yeah, I've been around the web long enough to see all partisan crap that passes for opinion from some people, there's good and bad in all etcetera, let's leave all the rags out of it.

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:The bottom line is that 0-60 is a silly measurement to discuss for high-powered cars. The better the power-to-weight ratio, the more 0-60 becomes a function of weight transfer, gearing, and ultimate traction. Yes, 3.9 seconds is Enzo territory. But who's to say, with it's race-stiff chassis setup, that an Enzo isn't a wheel-spinning mess, or a prone-to-bogging cluster-f***, launching it from a dead start. If an Enzo had it's engine sitting squarely over it's drive wheels, and it had more suspension compliance allowing nose-lift and tail-squat for ultimate downforce on the tires, who's to say you couldn't break into the 2-second range 0-60 with an Enzo?? In a high-powered car with street tires, 0-60 is a culmination of MANY MANY factors, horsepower and weight being only one of them.



    All fair comment, I couldn't possibly argue with any of it, I just don't know enough about set-ups and ratio's. I drive an M3 and I have absolutely no idea whether it performs as advertised, it feels quick to me but then I've had few decent cars. My original post was just fishing for some clarification from those with more knowledge, I was questioning rather than stating.



    Quote:
    69bossnine said:That is why I post with so much venom on these 0-60 debates, because it's often like listening to a typical crowd at Hooters Wing House debate quantum physics. I'm not referring to anyone here in specific, I'm just saying that on a Porsche forum packed full of mostly road-racing fans, there doesn't seem to be many who give credit to the chassis (where most of the credit is really due) for good 0-60 times. I've seen a properly set-up Pinto hole-shot exotics to 60 mph at the race-track. Also, a VW Beetle that used to run high 10-second 1/4 mile times, at only 112-114 mph, the same terminal speed as a 997S, simply because of it's herculean chassis and gearing setup making things rip in the 1st 60 feet. I would love it if we could take 0-60, and 0-62, whatever, and leave it to the Miata and Civic forums where it truly belongs. Seacrest out...



    Well in truth of course no doubt you're right, but I don't think 0 -60 times are completely worthless. For people like myself, who have just always wanted to own a car like this but don't have the time or the inclination to study every facet of the technology to the nth degree, then they provide a basic "at a glance" overview of something that we - as drivers - do actually care about in the real world. Namely "Is it fast!!!!"

    I'm happy to bow to superior knowledge and accept your points here boss (it's obvious you know what you're talking about), but let's have a bit of give and take and leave the likes of me free to get excited and have our little thrill when we oggle over the times of these cars we've worked our whole life to be able to afford! However innacurate they may really be.

    Be lucky mate.

    br d

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    You're right, 0-60 times aren't worthless, but I do believe that it's the wrong measure for a good "at a glance" review. Always go straight to the 1/4 mile elapsed time & final speed, or something similar in distance. 0-60 is obviously where races can be won or lost, but with high-powered cars, the advantages gained between 0 and 60 can be attributed to many things far less exciting and enticing than brute power. My frustration is in the popular habit of debating 0-60, when terminal speed at the end of the 1/4 mile, or the elapsed time that the car can hit 100 mph or higher, is so much more telling. I'll offer one last example of how 0-60, in some cases, is like tossing an olympic swimmer into a child's plastic wading pool, and timing laps. And this one involves a Porsche!!!

    Back in the early 80's, my stepdad had the most ferocious street-driven 930 Turbo I've ever seen. Actually, it was an original black on black 1976 911 Turbo Carrera, packing a 934 race motor that had come from a wrecked 24-hours of Daytona car. It was a monster. It had a VDO 2-bar boost gauge, and we would sometimes run boost that peaked at 2.5 bar. Later, we started popping head bolts, and we learned to stick closer to 2 bars if we wanted things to last, but anyhow..... With the old 4-speed non-overdrive tranny, the car was geared for high-speeds. That meant that 1st gear was tall, and you really had to be careful getting her going in first gear. The motor was very high-strung, would stall easily, or conversely would rev like a lit match and toast the clutch. We took the car to the drag strip once, to see what we could do with it. The launch was a laugh. Basically, as American V8's would spring away from the start line and power down the strip, Scot was just barely inching away from the start line, feathering that clutch, the motor wanting to bog, and once the clutch was fully engaged, waiting for what seemed like an ETERNITY for the big turbo to get past it's enormous lag-time and make boost. The 60-foot times were absolutely horrendous, I could have beat that Porsche to the 60' line on foot. No kidding. Anyhow, I ran against Scot in my 1988 Mustang GT convertible, slightly modified. It ran 14.10's at 98 mph consistently. I beat the 930 to the 1/8th mile cone. Just after that, Scot came past me like I was driving in reverse. The car sounded like a heavily boosted chainsaw. After beating him to the 1/8th mile mark in a 14-second Mustang, Scot posted a not-that-great 12.80 elapsed time.......... AT 133 MPH. From a roll, on the road, there was not a streetable car in North Florida that stood a chance against that car. But if you measured it 0-60, it looked like it couldn't beat a Diesel Rabbit.

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    To clarify, yes, it was a rear engine 911, so in theory, it should have the same advantages launching as our modern 997's. In practice, however, the combination of the tall 1st gear, and the all-or-nothing power, you COULD NOT rev the motor up and drop the clutch. The clutch could not hold that much power, and you would just fry it. You had to baby that car to get it rolling. Just thought I would add clarification, as I could foresee getting the "you said 911's have an advantage by design" dart tossed at me.

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    I just saw a re-run of Motorweek where they pitted the 997S with the Corvette (originally aired in the fall 0f 04), and during their 0-60 runs the Corvette got 4.8 and the 997 got 4.2! They showed footage and there was no wheel hopping or tire burning for the 997, hardly abused, but the Corvette they had trouble with to much wheel spin and that's why it was so slow. So I can see how in the right conditions, the 997 can get 3.9 with no trouble at all.

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    You're right, 0-60 times aren't worthless, but I do believe that it's the wrong measure for a good "at a glance" review. Always go straight to the 1/4 mile elapsed time & final speed, or something similar in distance. 0-60 is obviously where races can be won or lost, but with high-powered cars, the advantages gained between 0 and 60 can be attributed to many things far less exciting and enticing than brute power. My frustration is in the popular habit of debating 0-60, when terminal speed at the end of the 1/4 mile, or the elapsed time that the car can hit 100 mph or higher, is so much more telling. I'll offer one last example of how 0-60, in some cases, is like tossing an olympic swimmer into a child's plastic wading pool, and timing laps. And this one involves a Porsche!!!



    I've read this before about 1/4 mile times being a much better indicator of a car's real peformance, and it certainly seems logical, s'just something about that off the line scream to 60 that gets the juices flowing.

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:Back in the early 80's, my stepdad had the most ferocious street-driven 930 Turbo I've ever seen. Actually, it was an original black on black 1976 911 Turbo Carrera, packing a 934 race motor that had come from a wrecked 24-hours of Daytona car. It was a monster. It had a VDO 2-bar boost gauge, and we would sometimes run boost that peaked at 2.5 bar. Later, we started popping head bolts, and we learned to stick closer to 2 bars if we wanted things to last, but anyhow..... With the old 4-speed non-overdrive tranny, the car was geared for high-speeds. That meant that 1st gear was tall, and you really had to be careful getting her going in first gear. The motor was very high-strung, would stall easily, or conversely would rev like a lit match and toast the clutch. We took the car to the drag strip once, to see what we could do with it. The launch was a laugh. Basically, as American V8's would spring away from the start line and power down the strip, Scot was just barely inching away from the start line, feathering that clutch, the motor wanting to bog, and once the clutch was fully engaged, waiting for what seemed like an ETERNITY for the big turbo to get past it's enormous lag-time and make boost. The 60-foot times were absolutely horrendous, I could have beat that Porsche to the 60' line on foot. No kidding. Anyhow, I ran against Scot in my 1988 Mustang GT convertible, slightly modified. It ran 14.10's at 98 mph consistently. I beat the 930 to the 1/8th mile cone. Just after that, Scot came past me like I was driving in reverse. The car sounded like a heavily boosted chainsaw. After beating him to the 1/8th mile mark in a 14-second Mustang, Scot posted a not-that-great 12.80 elapsed time.......... AT 133 MPH. From a roll, on the road, there was not a streetable car in North Florida that stood a chance against that car. But if you measured it 0-60, it looked like it couldn't beat a Diesel Rabbit.



    A good story, and thanks for taking the time, some chunks of it are like a foriegn language to me though! See it's probably this: Forums like this one always contain very knowledgable people, and many people who drive performance cars are also very clued up about this stuff. Then you've got philistines like me. I basically know bugger all about performance engines, weight ratio's or turbo lag, I've never been to a drag strip or a race track, I just want to buy a car I've always loved the look of and take it out on a Sunday morning with a big grin. If it ever needs anything doing to it I'll go crawling back to the dealer and sign over half my house for an oil change. I don't even like to drive fast, anything over about 110 mph and I start getting nervous, *but* I do love to feel the kick in the back when I boot the car up to...oooh lets say ..60!
    That's about the only statistic that means anything to me. that and the purchase price. And I reckon there are plenty of tyre kickers like me out there, we just want to have fun.

    As long as my sort keep asking for 0 - 60 times, the manufactureres are going to keep publishing them and you're going to have to keep coming to places like this and refuting 'em boss. But what the hell, it gives us all something to do.

    br d

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    yes this current model of the SL has really beautiful lines(especially when the car is in black), thanks for the compliment btw when your car is run in, it's easy, just need a digital camera which can take video clips and you can upload the video at www.megaupload.com

    thanks stradale!



    Mike,
    ~THANKS!
    As soon as I can I'll get a sound clip in. Doubt I'll be able to do as good a job as Carlos but I'll give it a shot.

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    lol stradale! anything will be good, i haven't seen a video yet with the disconnected hose(PSE on all the time)

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    In my area most street races are from street lights. There's been a couple of times where I've been able to get passed an 1/8 of a mile or so but infequently do you have the space to safely race a full 1/4 mile all out. Either opportunities arrise to dice back and forth on a highway or it's from a standstill where 0-60 is everything. It's rare that you would happen upon a road that's safe enough to run a 1/4 mile and happen to pull up next to another guy willing to race. Standstill to 60 -100 mph is more likely than 100mph plus. When I was much younger we arranged a few full 1/4 mile street runs but it hasn't happened in a while. That's part of the reason I find 0-60 interesting. But I agree in theory about everything you're saying about the 1/4 mile. And of course if you 1/4 mile track your car 0-60 isn't as important.

    Re: Why 3.9 is hard to duplicate:

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    I just saw a re-run of Motorweek where they pitted the 997S with the Corvette (originally aired in the fall 0f 04), and during their 0-60 runs the Corvette got 4.8 and the 997 got 4.2! They showed footage and there was no wheel hopping or tire burning for the 997, hardly abused, but the Corvette they had trouble with to much wheel spin and that's why it was so slow. So I can see how in the right conditions, the 997 can get 3.9 with no trouble at all.



    Cool. Wish I could have seen that.

    Re: 997 S - Zero to 60 mph in 3.9 sec

    I'll try.

    Re: 997 S - Zero to 60 mph in 3.9 sec

    br d,
    From a guy that's pretty new here too, welcome to the forum.

    Re: 997 S - Zero to 60 mph in 3.9 sec

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    br d,
    From a guy that's pretty new here too, welcome to the forum.



    Cheers Strad, seems to be a nice bunch here.

    br d

     
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