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    Re: Especially for jjr1

    Quote:
    madadd said:
    Jjr1,

    I think you have something of a problem.

    Do you every write anything worthwhile?

    Do you even read the posts that you reply to?

    I quote ..

    "Think you are talking bollocks personally. When you have driven both come back to me and give me your real opinion.

    PASM equipped cars are too soft in comfort mode for fun and far too hard in sports mode to actually be of any benefit."

    I would estimate (though I could be wrong) that most members here would disagree with that last bit.

    "This is just someone who spends too much time reading articles and speculating on something he knows nothing about."

    Lost on this as well. What do I know nothing about? Do all of us here not spend a fair amount of time reading various articles?

    And finally ..

    "Madadd doesn't want to listen and has already formed his own opinions. Despite everybody who has driven a -20mm saying it is softer than a PASM in sports mode he keeps harping on about how it will be too hard for daily use"

    Oh boy! If you could just stop for five minutes, pull your head out your ars3 and point out where I claim that the -20mm is too hard I would be greatful!

    If all you can do is bitch. About statements I haven't even made! Please don't bother!

    ..Add

    P.S. Sorry folks . Although many have been having a fun and light hearted debate here. JJR seem to want to do nothing but dig at me. I resisted replying to the first two posts. But three. Come on!



    When I suggested that you could take a ride with a Rennteamer who owns a P17 997S, I had JJR1 in ming,
    well, I guess it won't happen now will it?

    Chill guys!
    At the end of the day, they're just cars!

    Add, make sure you try both and then chose wisely, good luck, jjr1 has chosen and he is 110% satisfied.

    Re: Especially for jjr1

    Lets not let the tone climb too much guys
    /uploads/98761-beer-toast1.gif

    Re: Apologies

    Leong,

    Back in calm mode again... Had a sleep!

    What do you think about the active parts of PASM. Do you frequently feel it when it say stiffens the front under breaking to prevent dive?

    And have you ever yanked the wheel to the side at speed on a fast road? (For me! I'm sure the car will be fine! ) to see how PASM prevents the car from starting to rock?

    The main thing I remember about switching to PASM sports mode, is that it felt like someone had over-inflated all the tires. I have only EVER spent less than 2 hours driving 977's. And it was such a big change for me, the suspension was the leat of my worries at the time.

    In truth, I spent most of my time thinking, Whats going on up front! Why do my front wheels feel so light! Is the steering working properly? I didn't know that the front of a 911 felt so light. Having never driven a rear engined car I didn't have the confidence I have in other cars. (The dealer still requesed that I slowed down however. Not a good test drive unless you get asked to slow down!! )

    Cheers,

    ...Add

    Re: Apologies

    I went back to an article I read in the febrary issue of ' Flat 6 magasine' , testing the sports chassis.
    They were much faster on the track with the - 20 mm( o.8 sec on a 1'20'' lap, partly due to different outside temparature) but it was clear that the - 20 mm was faster.
    Then they went on an open road VERY bumpy and there the car was jumping sometimes 50 cm towards the side on big bumps!!! The comments were that it was like driving a 964 RS on bad roads. The conclusion was that on open roads it was fine on highway, or main roads, dangerous on bad bumpy roads.
    What do the owners of - 20 mm think about this?

    Re: Apologies

    Quote:
    gnil said:
    I went back to an article I read in the febrary issue of ' Flat 6 magasine' , testing the sports chassis.
    They were much faster on the track with the - 20 mm( o.8 sec on a 1'20'' lap, partly due to different outside temparature) but it was clear that the - 20 mm was faster.
    Then they went on an open road VERY bumpy and there the car was jumping sometimes 50 cm towards the side on big bumps!!! The comments were that it was like driving a 964 RS on bad roads. The conclusion was that on open roads it was fine on highway, or main roads, dangerous on bad bumpy roads.
    What do the owners of - 20 mm think about this?



    Yeah I read that article too Gnil,
    And I got me worried.
    Truth is, Marc Joly is an awful journalist, his writing style is awful, he puts joke now and then in his articles thinking he's quite funny, but truly, he's pathetic.
    Everyone else I've had feedback from re P17 suspensions have denied those claims incl. Onwers, Rennteamers and of course myself.
    Writing that the car jumps half a meter on bad roads and is actually dangerous is scandalous!
    Proof that one should take those articles with a grain of salt especially cheap appaulling magazines like Flat 6 where there is only ONE test drivers (and a terrible one for that matter!)
    Good thing we have Rennteam to have real owners feedback!

    Re: Apologies

    Quote:
    madadd said:
    What do you think about the active parts of PASM. Do you frequently feel it when it say stiffens the front under breaking to prevent dive?


    I trust the engineers have done their homework, and my PASM works as it should, but can't say I have "felt" the "active" aspect working. I haven't had my car on the track yet either.
    Quote:
    madadd said:
    And have you ever yanked the wheel to the side at speed on a fast road? (For me! I'm sure the car will be fine! ) to see how PASM prevents the car from starting to rock?


    No, still have too much respect for the rear weight bias, and tend to enjoy smoother driving anyway. Hope I don't have to do any moose avoidance till I've done my PDE. (Unfortunately this means travelling to Brisbane for us.) If you meant PSM correcting a slide/drift above, then yes, I've had it about 45 degrees out of line unintentionally, and heard and felt the brakes being applied at different corners as it pulled me into line without using too much road. I had sport chrono on in the wet, and since then I've been cautious about using it in slippery conditions.
    Quote:
    madadd said:
    The main thing I remember about switching to PASM sports mode, is that it felt like someone had over-inflated all the tires. I have only EVER spent less than 2 hours driving 977's. And it was such a big change for me, the suspension was the leat of my worries at the time.


    That's not a bad description of the feel of sports mode, but you also notice much less roll turning in, and the steering feel is more positive. It's fantastic on smooth windy roads, which we have virtually none of here. I don't understand how your salesperson can expect you to spend that much money on a car without allowing you to take it at least overnight, or better over a weekend, and especially if it's your first Porsche. ( You need to establish a good relationship with a dealer ). Your opinions may be different from mine!!
    Quote:
    madadd said:
    In truth, I spent most of my time thinking, Whats going on up front! Why do my front wheels feel so light! Is the steering working properly? I didn't know that the front of a 911 felt so light. Having never driven a rear engined car I didn't have the confidence I have in other cars.


    You need more time in the car. Don't know what the weight distribution is like in a Skyline, but I'm used to about 50:50 in BMWs, and while the steering was light on my first drives, it wasn't my lasting impression. What I noticed more was how that weight at the back helped with traction, and how the stability control never had to cut in. It had so much grunt, AND you could use it from standstill.
    Quote:
    madadd said:
    (The dealer still requesed that I slowed down however. Not a good test drive unless you get asked to slow down!! )

    Cheers,

    ...Add


    Sorry to end this way but I don't agree here. I want things from my dealer. I want him to give me the demonstrator for the weekend. I want to try a car with PASM, with -20mm, see different colors etc. You can learn much on the net but theres nothing like the experience the dealer can offer.... Earn their trust and respect when you have your first drives, and prove you're serious by doing your homework. SHow them some respect. You may find that the dealer will give you a car for the weekend, and even locate and arrange a -20mm car for you for back to back comparison!! ( also helps to go to the top salesperson at the dealership, they know more, can pull more strings, and are more likely to be there when you want your next car )

    Re: Apologies

    Quote:
    gnil said:
    I went back to an article I read in the febrary issue of ' Flat 6 magasine' , testing the sports chassis.
    They were much faster on the track with the - 20 mm( o.8 sec on a 1'20'' lap, partly due to different outside temparature) but it was clear that the - 20 mm was faster.
    Then they went on an open road VERY bumpy and there the car was jumping sometimes 50 cm towards the side on big bumps!!! The comments were that it was like driving a 964 RS on bad roads. The conclusion was that on open roads it was fine on highway, or main roads, dangerous on bad bumpy roads.
    What do the owners of - 20 mm think about this?



    Haven't seen the article. (Can't get the magazine here) Was it a comparison? I'd be interested in any comments made on PASM sport mode on the same road. I wonder if the active aspect of PASM in Sport mode has been shown to work, or if they found that PASM normal was the best setup for this particular road??

    Re: Apologies

    Yes there is a possibility to lower PASM equipped cars,
    H&R offers some and lower the car by -30mm legal approved.

    Re: Apologies

    Quote:
    systra said:
    Yes there is a possibility to lower PASM equipped cars,
    H&R offers some and lower the car by -30mm legal approved.



    Has it been tested? Is it working properly?

    Re: Apologies

    Quote:
    gnil said:

    Has it been tested? Is it working properly?


    According the website it's legal approved:
    http://www.h-r.com/index.php?sprache=en

    continue sport springs

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    Quote:
    madadd said:

    Looking at the ring times, a professional driver can gain 4 seconds on an 8 minute lap. Only 4 seconds! Thats less than 1% faster. Mr Rohrl could have gained that 1% back by skipping his lunch before the drive!




    Walther Rohrl on Nordschleife:

    997 S PASM sport 8 min 2 sec

    997S -20mm LSD 22%/47% 7 min 59 sec

    Then gain only 3 seconds,not 4.

    Re: Apologies

    Quote:
    systra said:
    Quote:
    gnil said:

    Has it been tested? Is it working properly?


    According the website it's legal approved:
    http://www.h-r.com/index.php?sprache=en

    continue sport springs



    I did not find the specifics for Porsche 997 PASM !!

    Re: Apologies

    Quote:
    systra said:
    According the website it's legal approved:
    http://www.h-r.com/index.php?sprache=en

    continue sport springs



    Legally approved (by the german TUEV, not Porsche) doesn't mean it works great.
    BUT: to my knowledge, H&R offers lowering springs ONLY for the 997 Carrera (not S!) with the original NON-PASM setup.
    If you know something different, please post a link, I'm curious.

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    Quote:
    gian61 said:
    Quote:
    madadd said:

    Looking at the ring times, a professional driver can gain 4 seconds on an 8 minute lap. Only 4 seconds! Thats less than 1% faster. Mr Rohrl could have gained that 1% back by skipping his lunch before the drive!




    Walther Rohrl on Nordschleife:

    997 S PASM sport 8 min 2 sec

    997S -20mm LSD 22%/47% 7 min 59 sec

    Then gain only 3 seconds,not 4.



    3 seconds are a lot, even if it doesn't sound this way.
    And you guys forget something very important: the times Walter Röhrl achieved are times achieved by somebody (WR) who helped to develop this car. He knows this car like his underwear. And furthermore: these times have been achieved with chrono sport active and PSM turned OFF.

    I don't say that the 20 mm chassis is perfect and I never said it is much much better than the PASM. I only said that I prefer it because it is the sportier setup and the limited slip differential has it's advantages too, despite the low sounding locking percentage.

    I don't understand all this fuss about PASM or 20 mm chassis. They both cost the same (or nothing on the S), so this is really something people have to decide for themselves. Waste of money? This question is more than weird. Why? Because people compare PASM to the 20 mm chassis and PASM costs the same money. And for the S, PASM or the 20 mm chassis are free options, so the "waste of money?" headline sounds nice but doesn't make ANY sense.
    HOT AIR as we say here in Germany or "a lot of bla bla for nothing".

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    I think the reason Madadd started this thread was to generate some debate so that he could see other people views and thus help him decide whether to opt for PASM or -20MM. It not any easy decision especially as there are so few -20MM equiped cars to test.

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    Madadd,,

    Whereabouts are you in the UK ?,,

    Tomorrow I will ring my Dealership up that I have an order with..

    If they got a -20mm demo I will let you know

    Dont ask dont get...

    throt.

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    Well said ACA! A few people got me very wrong. I have never been into luxurious cars. Usually, the harder the better.

    As for your comments RC. The money question, that I was presenting. Was this..

    According to Porsche, one of the big additions to the 997 was active suspension. They obviously spent a hugh amount of money, developing it and adding it to the car.

    In comparative terms, the somewhat normal springs, shocks, anti roll bars and LSD of the sports suspension setup are somewhat less costly to Porsche. (the fact that they are both the same in the price seems to me to be pure convenience from a logistial point of view)

    Are Porsche not making far more money on the sale when you choose -20mm than they do when you choose PASM?

    My intended point was more 'In theory PASM sounds so good. Why on earth would you not want it? It appears to have so many great benefits. And I don't know if they are worth sacrificing.'. I am singing the praises of PASM. Not bashing -20mm.

    Throt - I am in Lancashire.

    ...Add

    P.S. I really hope I don't get my car and realise PASM just doesn't do it for me!!

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    Honestly, I think that PASM normal mode is too soft. PASM sport is on the rough side. I like my car, don't get me wrong. And I've had my 997S w/ PASM for over 6 months now. But if given the opportunity to have the sport suspension, I would switch in a heartbeat. My advice is, if the reason you're buying the Porsche is for comfort, get PASM. If you're buying for sport, get -20mm. If I knew that -20mm was around the corner for the U.S. market, I would have waited. If I had to wait a year for -20mm, I would have waited. Since I didn't know if that was on the horizon, I went ahead with purchasing the 997S with PASM.

    Re: Apologies

    Quote:
    RC said:

    BUT: to my knowledge, H&R offers lowering springs ONLY for the 997 Carrera (not S!) with the original NON-PASM setup.
    If you know something different, please post a link, I'm curious.



    Here you are: http://www.h-r.com/bin/29188.pdf

    On page 4:Vehicles with PASM*) can be retrofitted in the way described above.
    *) PASM = Porsche Active Suspension Management

    Re: Apologies

    Quote:
    systra said:
    Quote:
    RC said:

    BUT: to my knowledge, H&R offers lowering springs ONLY for the 997 Carrera (not S!) with the original NON-PASM setup.
    If you know something different, please post a link, I'm curious.



    Here you are: http://www.h-r.com/bin/29188.pdf

    On page 4:Vehicles with PASM*) can be retrofitted in the way described above.
    *) PASM = Porsche Active Suspension Management



    But this doesn' t tell us if it works well or not, only that it is aproved

    Re: Apologies

    You right, saw only that's possible. I'm anyway not interested in as mine has -20mm and LSD and this combo works really fine
    But somewhere in a post it was mention as not be possible to lower PASM cars

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    Quote:
    madadd said:
    Well said ACA! A few people got me very wrong. I have never been into luxurious cars. Usually, the harder the better.

    As for your comments RC. The money question, that I was presenting. Was this..

    According to Porsche, one of the big additions to the 997 was active suspension. They obviously spent a hugh amount of money, developing it and adding it to the car.

    In comparative terms, the somewhat normal springs, shocks, anti roll bars and LSD of the sports suspension setup are somewhat less costly to Porsche. (the fact that they are both the same in the price seems to me to be pure convenience from a logistial point of view)

    Are Porsche not making far more money on the sale when you choose -20mm than they do when you choose PASM?

    My intended point was more 'In theory PASM sounds so good. Why on earth would you not want it? It appears to have so many great benefits. And I don't know if they are worth sacrificing.'. I am singing the praises of PASM. Not bashing -20mm.

    Throt - I am in Lancashire.

    ...Add

    P.S. I really hope I don't get my car and realise PASM just doesn't do it for me!!



    Had a chat with the salesman and he said he has yet to sell a 997S with -20 due to poor UK roads , he also reckoned it could have a bad effect on residuals but its worth to note that he has'nt driven one either..

    Also no chance of finding a demo with it..

    Anyone think hes got a point with the residual quote bearing in mind that he has not sold one yet due to lack of demand...

    throt.

    Re: Apologies

    I think the 3 or 4 second Walter Rohl time difference between PASM and the -20 mm suspension is no difference at all. As far as I'm concerned, those numbers are the same.

    Re: Apologies

    True Silver but the -20 looks great , thats the main reason I am looking at it its sleek , but the demand factor effects residual sell on and thats the only concern along with no damn demos , not one in the UK..


    throt.

    Re: -20mm Suspension. What a waste of money!?

    Quote:
    throt said:
    Quote:
    madadd said:
    Well said ACA! A few people got me very wrong. I have never been into luxurious cars. Usually, the harder the better.

    As for your comments RC. The money question, that I was presenting. Was this..

    According to Porsche, one of the big additions to the 997 was active suspension. They obviously spent a hugh amount of money, developing it and adding it to the car.

    In comparative terms, the somewhat normal springs, shocks, anti roll bars and LSD of the sports suspension setup are somewhat less costly to Porsche. (the fact that they are both the same in the price seems to me to be pure convenience from a logistial point of view)

    Are Porsche not making far more money on the sale when you choose -20mm than they do when you choose PASM?

    My intended point was more 'In theory PASM sounds so good. Why on earth would you not want it? It appears to have so many great benefits. And I don't know if they are worth sacrificing.'. I am singing the praises of PASM. Not bashing -20mm.

    Throt - I am in Lancashire.

    ...Add

    P.S. I really hope I don't get my car and realise PASM just doesn't do it for me!!



    Had a chat with the salesman and he said he has yet to sell a 997S with -20 due to poor UK roads , he also reckoned it could have a bad effect on residuals but its worth to note that he has'nt driven one either..

    Also no chance of finding a demo with it..

    Anyone think hes got a point with the residual quote bearing in mind that he has not sold one yet due to lack of demand...

    throt.



    I was told the same thing and likewise my sales chap hasn't driven a -20 set-up, seems consistent with UK dealers and that might be the problem here, even if the -20 worked well on poor UK roads all the negative dealer chat will put off potential second users and therefore effect residuals, only hardcore track and PO enthusiasts would have any interest.
    I would be interested to know as a percentage how many PO owners belong to a good forum (such as this) or PO clubs, how else will they find out the benefits of the -20 set-up?

    I have only driven PASM and would love to try out -20. I was also made aware of the benefits by RC's posts prior to finalising my order but didn't chance the set up without a test drive, I really couldn't live with a very hard drive for every day use. This is almost a contradiction for us PASM drivers, we have purchased high performance cars and are concerned about the ride being to hard and would slate PO if a lesser car handled better, almost doesn't make sense, I suppose in reality its all about what you want GT. or racer.

    Re: Apologies

    Quote:
    throt said:
    True Silver but the -20 looks great , thats the main reason I am looking at it its sleek



    Perhaps, but does the extra 1 cm really make THAT big a difference in looks??

    With PASM, you have the best of both worlds.

    I know this has gone back and forth a great deal on this forum, but it's a no brainer for me except for one thing: I'm worried about the reliability of PASM.

    Re: Apologies

    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:
    Quote:
    throt said:
    True Silver but the -20 looks great , thats the main reason I am looking at it its sleek



    Perhaps, but does the extra 1 cm really make THAT big a difference in looks??

    With PASM, you have the best of both worlds.

    I know this has gone back and forth a great deal on this forum, but it's a no brainer for me except for one thing: I'm worried about the reliability of PASM.


    Silver Bullet - even if the lap time differences aren't huge, you're discounting that the LSD on the -20mm probably makes a huge improvement in stability under braking and corner entry that gives the driver much more confidence (can't always reduce this to numbers). I think the -20mm w/ LSD is by far the best setup for the enthusiast. LSD is also a great benefit in slippery conditions - something that PSM cannot achieve nearly as well on its own...

    Re: Apologies

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Silver Bullet - even if the lap time differences aren't huge, you're discounting that the LSD on the -20mm probably makes a huge improvement in stability under braking and corner entry that gives the driver much more confidence (can't always reduce this to numbers). I think the -20mm w/ LSD is by far the best setup for the enthusiast. LSD is also a great benefit in slippery conditions - something that PSM cannot achieve nearly as well on its own...



    I couldn't have summarised it any better Grant, my thoughts exactly

    PASM is just a compromise for confort and versatility, definately not the best of both worlds. Just depends what you want, fortunately there are the two options to choose from (at least in Europe, I still can't figuire out why the US customers are being deprived of the -20mm option).

    Re: Apologies

    Carlos is it a " skull shaker " , sorry if this subjest is boring you but I would love this option , its just our roads in the UK are not to clever..

    If only I could find a demo , but would a GT 3 demo be a good reserve of a -20 997S ..

    Just a thought..

    Thanks..

    throt.

    Re: Apologies

    Funny to read this thread. I would have loved to order -20mm/LSD but it's not an option on the cab. I have never driven the PASM but went with the -20 for about 750km (a little less than 500 miles) on the Autobahn and truly enjoyed the firm but fantastic ride. I think it's really the '911' choice.

     
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