Crown

Quote:
ben, lj said:

Quote:
WCH said: gentlemen, there's nothing to fear, with practice, you'd be able to work the paddles, too.

anyone who can pull their prick out their pants to take a wiz (or make up out of their purse) can "work" the paddles.

OUCH! Ben Porsche would have install the F1 version in the CGT but for the fact they had not perfected it.

Let me understand your comments regarding the F1. You were frustrated sitting in traffic because you had an F1 as opposed to manual? PLEASE do not try to sell us that line.

Quote:
nberry said:

Quote:
ben, lj said:

Quote:
WCH said: gentlemen, there's nothing to fear, with practice, you'd be able to work the paddles, too.

anyone who can pull their prick out their pants to take a wiz (or make up out of their purse) can "work" the paddles.

OUCH! Ben Porsche would have install the F1 version in the CGT but for the fact they had not perfected it.

Let me understand your comments regarding the F1. You were frustrated sitting in traffic because you had an F1 as opposed to manual? PLEASE do not try to sell us that line.

if they had made it with an f1 type box, i wouldn't have been interested.

yes, i got tired as $hit of pulling in both paddles, then putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, vpulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in the right paddle, pulling in both paddles, putting my foot on the brake, pulling in the right paddle...

ps. i've been caught twice in that type of traffic with the CGT and while unpleasant (simply because i hate sitting), nothing about the tranny or clutch frustrated me - save for maybe how heavy the clutch is after that long a time with that many repetitions so close together.

So when do you take your foot OFF the brake?

Quote:
MKW said:
One concern I have with these newer trannies is San Francisco's steep 30 degree hills around Pacific Heights and Russian Hill . A friend of mine cannot take his 360 F1financial district there when there is a chance of crawling traffic ( basically between 8 am and 11 pm ! ) . The stench from his clutch slipping is overwhelming . And parallel parking on a hill - forget it. Will the DSG on Porsche's be just as bad , since I drive these areas all the time w/o a problem with a traditional manual .

Suspect that was an older 360....newer 360/430/612, etc seem well-adapted to SF's hills....after all, SF is arguably hilliest major F mkt in world, so not surprising that early 360 F1's weren't engineered for those hills (though I bet early P DSG boxes will similarly struggle w/these hills)....also, SF stop-and-go traffic is relatively small-townish....many in the financial business use NYC as the relevant comp...and there are a few truly hard-core guys who successfully commute around/into Manhattan in latest-generation F1-equipped F's.... I laugh at the criticism of F F1 boxes vs SF hills.....bigger issue for the marketing failure CGT (OK, OK I know that P quietly fixed that problematic clutch...but what's the latest discount price on new CGTs again? ) is its ground clearance, which makes it very annoying/near-nonusable vs an Enzo/Murci (which have ht adjustment) for PacHts/PresHts....or some Woodside/Los Altos Hills/Los Gatos driveways....places where more than a few potential CGT buyers hang out....

Originally when I went to purchase my 360 I was strictly against the F1 system, I would only opt for a 6-speed. Then I drove it...I was sold...at first.

The major problem is that none of these magazines use their test 360/430 on a daily basis. The F1 is amazing the first time you try it, and as long as it is working well, it is pretty neat. But I had far too many little issues with my F1 to consider it for my first 430, my coupe will be a 6-speed.

In under 8000 miles here are some of the complaints I had with my '02 360F1:

1) ruined clutch (replaced under warranty)
2) I actually had the car stall on me at a stop sign
3) getting into reverse was a pain as I got up there in the mileage, the new clutch helped but still didn't make things smooth/as perfect as they were when I first got the car.
4) upshifting/downshifting was always jerkier than I could be with a manual, and I'm not totally convinced that the upshifts were faster than I could perform with a manual
5) not much fun under 70mph; at higher speeds I'm more focused on cornering/braking/etc... but at lower speeds, the car has no problems staying planted and I just end up holding the wheel - a 6 speed is more engaging here.

I've been very tempted to go for a F1 on my F430, but when I was stuck and unable to get my 360 into reverse I told myself that I would not order my next Ferrari with the F1 option. If they truly get all the bugs worked out and if I don't hear a single complaint about it being jerky/having problems, then I'll consider it for my spider order when my number comes up, but until then Ferrari has quite a bit of proving to do.

For me it comes down to what I find more fun, and there are a number of times when the F1 to me is not as much fun as a 6 speed.

Quote:
nberry said:

Fanch, I do respect other opinions. What I do not understand is people taking the position that a good car requires a person to drive it perfectly as opposed to a good car being one that allows the driver to drive it perfectly. See the difference?

Yes I see the difference Nick, but we're over the F1/ manual gearbox discussion here.
I mean, what defines a good car?
What is a good driver?
Does he need an F1 transmission?
Why are we here?
Different cars for different drivers, that's all Nick.
Can you imagine if all sports cars were Ferraris!
Terrible!
Can you imagine if all sports cars were Porsches!
Terrible too!
Each car fits a certain type of driver, and that's it!

Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
MB can ONLY produce auto trannies.
Their manual ones are simply absolutely useless...so Nick, that part of your argument isn't as valid as the other ones you had, I'm afraid

According to what I've read, the new 6-speed manual on the SLK 350 and C350 are, for the first time in Merc history, good.

Quote:
VKSF said:

Quote:
MKW said:
One concern I have with these newer trannies is San Francisco's steep 30 degree hills around Pacific Heights and Russian Hill . A friend of mine cannot take his 360 F1financial district there when there is a chance of crawling traffic ( basically between 8 am and 11 pm ! ) . The stench from his clutch slipping is overwhelming . And parallel parking on a hill - forget it. Will the DSG on Porsche's be just as bad , since I drive these areas all the time w/o a problem with a traditional manual .

Suspect that was an older 360....newer 360/430/612, etc seem well-adapted to SF's hills....after all, SF is arguably hilliest major F mkt in world, so not surprising that early 360 F1's weren't engineered for those hills (though I bet early P DSG boxes will similarly struggle w/these hills)....also, SF stop-and-go traffic is relatively small-townish....many in the financial business use NYC as the relevant comp...and there are a few truly hard-core guys who successfully commute around/into Manhattan in latest-generation F1-equipped F's.... I laugh at the criticism of F F1 boxes vs SF hills.....bigger issue for the marketing failure CGT (OK, OK I know that P quietly fixed that problematic clutch...but what's the latest discount price on new CGTs again? ) is its ground clearance, which makes it very annoying/near-nonusable vs an Enzo/Murci (which have ht adjustment) for PacHts/PresHts....or some Woodside/Los Altos Hills/Los Gatos driveways....places where more than a few potential CGT buyers hang out....

It was an '00 360. I know they updated the programming in '02, but does that really correct the problem. ( Trying inching up Divisadero from Union Street , a foot at a time , to see what I mean - stinkerama , lol !).
Actually, the big problem with any Ferrari I've driven on SF hills , even Testarossas in the 80s , is the end of coming down a steep hill where the front spoiler is just grroundd into the asphalt if you have to continue straight. Can't imagine anyone driving a Carrera GT in SF for the same reason unless they are long time residents and know EVERY street on their route .

Quote:
MKW said:

Quote:
VKSF said:

Quote:
MKW said:
One concern I have with these newer trannies is San Francisco's steep 30 degree hills around Pacific Heights and Russian Hill . A friend of mine cannot take his 360 F1financial district there when there is a chance of crawling traffic ( basically between 8 am and 11 pm ! ) . The stench from his clutch slipping is overwhelming . And parallel parking on a hill - forget it. Will the DSG on Porsche's be just as bad , since I drive these areas all the time w/o a problem with a traditional manual .

Suspect that was an older 360....newer 360/430/612, etc seem well-adapted to SF's hills....after all, SF is arguably hilliest major F mkt in world, so not surprising that early 360 F1's weren't engineered for those hills (though I bet early P DSG boxes will similarly struggle w/these hills)....also, SF stop-and-go traffic is relatively small-townish....many in the financial business use NYC as the relevant comp...and there are a few truly hard-core guys who successfully commute around/into Manhattan in latest-generation F1-equipped F's.... I laugh at the criticism of F F1 boxes vs SF hills.....bigger issue for the marketing failure CGT (OK, OK I know that P quietly fixed that problematic clutch...but what's the latest discount price on new CGTs again? ) is its ground clearance, which makes it very annoying/near-nonusable vs an Enzo/Murci (which have ht adjustment) for PacHts/PresHts....or some Woodside/Los Altos Hills/Los Gatos driveways....places where more than a few potential CGT buyers hang out....

It was an '00 360. I know they updated the programming in '02, but does that really correct the problem. ( Trying inching up Divisadero from Union Street , a foot at a time , to see what I mean - stinkerama , lol !).
Actually, the big problem with any Ferrari I've driven on SF hills , even Testarossas in the 80s , is the end of coming down a steep hill where the front spoiler is just grroundd into the asphalt if you have to continue straight. Can't imagine anyone driving a Carrera GT in SF for the same reason unless they are long time residents and know EVERY street on their route .

Latest F1 trannies, esp 430/612, are downright SL55-like in auto mode...perfectly suited for commuter duty in Manhattan stop-and-go and/or SF hills . Have found 360CS/430 to be very commutable in terms of ground clearance on SF hills (incl streets you described)....430 scrapes only slightly more often than 996TTS does (and on 430 what often scrapes is a plastic/metal guard that's essentially not visible to a casual observer...and is easily/cheaply replaceable). I give credit to F (esp as a low-volume producer) for understanding their serial buyer base and refining 430/612 to point where many buyers view F's as essentially interchangeable w/SL55/996TTS as pragmatically commutable cars in places like SF/Greenwich, 2 regions w/perhaps biggest concentrations of serial F buyers in world. OTOH, P's CGT and L's Gallardo are great examples of cars where cos. failed to engineer ground clearance for relevant major mkts...and resale values prob reflect these failures....

Quote:
VKSF said:

Quote:
MKW said:

Quote:
VKSF said:

Quote:
MKW said:
One concern I have with these newer trannies is San Francisco's steep 30 degree hills around Pacific Heights and Russian Hill . A friend of mine cannot take his 360 F1financial district there when there is a chance of crawling traffic ( basically between 8 am and 11 pm ! ) . The stench from his clutch slipping is overwhelming . And parallel parking on a hill - forget it. Will the DSG on Porsche's be just as bad , since I drive these areas all the time w/o a problem with a traditional manual .

Suspect that was an older 360....newer 360/430/612, etc seem well-adapted to SF's hills....after all, SF is arguably hilliest major F mkt in world, so not surprising that early 360 F1's weren't engineered for those hills (though I bet early P DSG boxes will similarly struggle w/these hills)....also, SF stop-and-go traffic is relatively small-townish....many in the financial business use NYC as the relevant comp...and there are a few truly hard-core guys who successfully commute around/into Manhattan in latest-generation F1-equipped F's.... I laugh at the criticism of F F1 boxes vs SF hills.....bigger issue for the marketing failure CGT (OK, OK I know that P quietly fixed that problematic clutch...but what's the latest discount price on new CGTs again? ) is its ground clearance, which makes it very annoying/near-nonusable vs an Enzo/Murci (which have ht adjustment) for PacHts/PresHts....or some Woodside/Los Altos Hills/Los Gatos driveways....places where more than a few potential CGT buyers hang out....

It was an '00 360. I know they updated the programming in '02, but does that really correct the problem. ( Trying inching up Divisadero from Union Street , a foot at a time , to see what I mean - stinkerama , lol !).
Actually, the big problem with any Ferrari I've driven on SF hills , even Testarossas in the 80s , is the end of coming down a steep hill where the front spoiler is just grroundd into the asphalt if you have to continue straight. Can't imagine anyone driving a Carrera GT in SF for the same reason unless they are long time residents and know EVERY street on their route .

OTOH, P's CGT and L's Gallardo are great examples of cars where cos. failed to engineer ground clearance for relevant major mkts...and resale values prob reflect these failures....

am i the only one who buys cars for my own personal enjoyment vs. the next guy's? i don't care what other guys in other markets think about my cars. all i care about is enjoying hell out of them in my market. these things are toys, not investments.

Quote:
ben, lj said:
am i the only one who buys cars for my own personal enjoyment vs. the next guy's? i don't care what other guys in other markets think about my cars. all i care about is enjoying hell out of them in my market. these things are toys, not investments.

Anyway, the only time I wish I had an F1 tranny is when I fail to downshift properly. But then I practice more. The satisfaction is huge, and until I master it, I will be staying away from these sequential interfaced manuals.

BTW, very few of you would choose a true sequential gearbox, if it were offered.

- J

With the F1 I really like the way it feels to keep both hands on the wheel while taking turns aggresively and shifting at high speed .I'm very happy with the F1 but I really didn't have a choice with the CS. If/when Ferrari makes a 430CS guess I won't have a choice again but would order the F1 if I was buying a 430. Would also opt for CC brakes. Haven't had any problems with shifting while parking etc. I do know what the person who mentioned the TT's clutch is talking about. It doesn't disengage the way I would like. In other sports cars I have owned once you release the clutch at a certain point you can feel the car start to pull. On very steep hills in the 996TT it is very difficult to pull away from a dead stop without either rolling back, stalling or relaesing it at higher rpms. I read the same thing happens with the CGT

Quote:
STRADALE said:

On very steep hills in the 996TT it is very difficult to pull away from a dead stop without either rolling back, stalling or relaesing it at higher rpms.

Not really. Any manual equipped car with a handbrake mounted between the seats is easy to handle on steep hills. Simply use the handbrake to hold the car while you feed in gas and let out the clutch. Practicing with a '72 Nova with a floor mounted parking brake and column mounted 3 speed manual was a bit of a challenge. My manual 996 is quite easy to get up and down the hills - going forward or in reverse to snag a parking space is easy to manage. A F1 Ferrari however...you're stuck with using the valet - and I shudder to think what they're doing with your Ferrari while you're inside having dinner!!

Quote:
STRADALE said:On very steep hills in the 996TT it is very difficult to pull away from a dead stop without either rolling back, stalling or relaesing it at higher rpms. I read the same thing happens with the CGT

it's not the clutch. it's the hair trigger throttle resulting from a race engine. revs drop as fast as they climb and this takes some getting used to. i take off with about 1k rpm on flat surfaces and appx 2k on steep inclines. the trick is keeping it steedily a those rpms.

Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:

Quote:
STRADALE said:

On very steep hills in the 996TT it is very difficult to pull away from a dead stop without either rolling back, stalling or relaesing it at higher rpms.

Not really. Any manual equipped car with a handbrake mounted between the seats is easy to handle on steep hills. Simply use the handbrake to hold the car while you feed in gas and let out the clutch. Practicing with a '72 Nova with a floor mounted parking brake and column mounted 3 speed manual was a bit of a challenge. My manual 996 is quite easy to get up and down the hills - going forward or in reverse to snag a parking space is easy to manage. A F1 Ferrari however...you're stuck with using the valet - and I shudder to think what they're doing with your Ferrari while you're inside having dinner!!

You must have a reg 996. There is a difference in clutch take up point between reg 996 and GT3 vs the 996 Turbo. The former have a low take up point, so you can inch forward with minimal release of clutch/addition of throttle so there is no backward motion.
The 996 Turbo clutch is very overboosted ( no feel ) AND doesn't " bite " until nearly 80% released . So to get going on a steep hill , you must release the clutch quickly and quite far to bite and give it some stab of throttle ( which with E-Gas has a mind of it's own sometimes ) to prevent rolling back . That can lead to what many Turbo drivers refer to as herky / jerky or near stall starts on hills . I have driven manuals on SF hills for almost 30 years and never had the problem like I have on my Turbo , for the above reasons.

Quote:
ben, lj said:

Quote:
VKSF said:

Quote:
MKW said:

Quote:
VKSF said:

Quote:
MKW said:
One concern I have with these newer trannies is San Francisco's steep 30 degree hills around Pacific Heights and Russian Hill . A friend of mine cannot take his 360 F1financial district there when there is a chance of crawling traffic ( basically between 8 am and 11 pm ! ) . The stench from his clutch slipping is overwhelming . And parallel parking on a hill - forget it. Will the DSG on Porsche's be just as bad , since I drive these areas all the time w/o a problem with a traditional manual .

Suspect that was an older 360....newer 360/430/612, etc seem well-adapted to SF's hills....after all, SF is arguably hilliest major F mkt in world, so not surprising that early 360 F1's weren't engineered for those hills (though I bet early P DSG boxes will similarly struggle w/these hills)....also, SF stop-and-go traffic is relatively small-townish....many in the financial business use NYC as the relevant comp...and there are a few truly hard-core guys who successfully commute around/into Manhattan in latest-generation F1-equipped F's.... I laugh at the criticism of F F1 boxes vs SF hills.....bigger issue for the marketing failure CGT (OK, OK I know that P quietly fixed that problematic clutch...but what's the latest discount price on new CGTs again? ) is its ground clearance, which makes it very annoying/near-nonusable vs an Enzo/Murci (which have ht adjustment) for PacHts/PresHts....or some Woodside/Los Altos Hills/Los Gatos driveways....places where more than a few potential CGT buyers hang out....

It was an '00 360. I know they updated the programming in '02, but does that really correct the problem. ( Trying inching up Divisadero from Union Street , a foot at a time , to see what I mean - stinkerama , lol !).
Actually, the big problem with any Ferrari I've driven on SF hills , even Testarossas in the 80s , is the end of coming down a steep hill where the front spoiler is just grroundd into the asphalt if you have to continue straight. Can't imagine anyone driving a Carrera GT in SF for the same reason unless they are long time residents and know EVERY street on their route .

OTOH, P's CGT and L's Gallardo are great examples of cars where cos. failed to engineer ground clearance for relevant major mkts...and resale values prob reflect these failures....

am i the only one who buys cars for my own personal enjoyment vs. the next guy's? i don't care what other guys in other markets think about my cars. all i care about is enjoying hell out of them in my market. these things are toys, not investments.

No s*it, Ben I favor several cars w/weak resale values (996TTS, 575, SL55, etc) and know that even an Enzo obtained at MSRP and driven 5K mi/yr until Enzo 2.0 comes will take a huge opportunity cost hit (after all, a totally dollar-focused guy would have flipped the new Enzo for the easy $600Kish profit, right?). My point w/CGT is that if this brilliant car had not been endowed w/an early, problematic clutch (as in Larry's and others) and very difficult ground clearance (w/o ht adjustment feature), I'd bet that CGT would have been easily sold-out at premium price.....I suspect many frequent buyers of new supercars want to be able to enjoy the hell out of their cars, no matter the resale value, but if one can't easily get car out of own driveway/into office pkg garage, etc, many of these potential buyers will opt for competing, more readily usable supercars....modern buyers have become far less tolerant of supercar quirks than buyers of 5-10+ yrs ago....and if one wants a pure race car, some may opt to buy a real race car for track use to fully avoid street car compromises, police enforcement, traffic nonsense, etc....

Quote:
Jeff (in SF) said:

Quote:
STRADALE said:

On very steep hills in the 996TT it is very difficult to pull away from a dead stop without either rolling back, stalling or relaesing it at higher rpms.

Not really. Any manual equipped car with a handbrake mounted between the seats is easy to handle on steep hills. Simply use the handbrake to hold the car while you feed in gas and let out the clutch. Practicing with a '72 Nova with a floor mounted parking brake and column mounted 3 speed manual was a bit of a challenge. My manual 996 is quite easy to get up and down the hills - going forward or in reverse to snag a parking space is easy to manage. A F1 Ferrari however...you're stuck with using the valet - and I shudder to think what they're doing with your Ferrari while you're inside having dinner!!

I don't know. I've had quite a few manuel sports cars. Muscle cars and European Exotics and the TT takes a lot more getting used to.

As for the valets driving my Ferrari..I haven't given my keys to a valet yet. And I never will.. The one time I went out to dinner w/ the car and there was a valet he moved some traffic cones and let me park in the closest spot. If it really becomes a problem with the valets maybe I'll sell the car........Yeah right.

Thanks for 'shudder'ing though

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STRADALE said:

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Jeff (in SF) said:

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STRADALE said:

On very steep hills in the 996TT it is very difficult to pull away from a dead stop without either rolling back, stalling or relaesing it at higher rpms.

Not really. Any manual equipped car with a handbrake mounted between the seats is easy to handle on steep hills. Simply use the handbrake to hold the car while you feed in gas and let out the clutch. Practicing with a '72 Nova with a floor mounted parking brake and column mounted 3 speed manual was a bit of a challenge. My manual 996 is quite easy to get up and down the hills - going forward or in reverse to snag a parking space is easy to manage. A F1 Ferrari however...you're stuck with using the valet - and I shudder to think what they're doing with your Ferrari while you're inside having dinner!!

I don't know. I've had quite a few manuel sports cars. Muscle cars and European Exotics and the TT takes a lot more getting used to.

As for the valets driving my Ferrari..I haven't given my keys to a valet yet. And I never will.. The one time I went out to dinner w/ the car and there was a valet he moved some traffic cones and let me park in the closest spot. If it really becomes a problem with the valets maybe I'll sell the car........Yeah right.

Thanks for 'shudder'ing though

It only means that I and other manual equipped cars get to take advantage of more of SF than F1 equpped cars because I'm not as limited on where I can park or take the car. Not all of the fine restaurants and fun places to go in SF have valets, or parking lots, or are located on nice flat streets right?

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ben, lj said:

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STRADALE said:On very steep hills in the 996TT it is very difficult to pull away from a dead stop without either rolling back, stalling or relaesing it at higher rpms. I read the same thing happens with the CGT

it's not the clutch. it's the hair trigger throttle resulting from a race engine. revs drop as fast as they climb and this takes some getting used to. i take off with about 1k rpm on flat surfaces and appx 2k on steep inclines. the trick is keeping it steedily a those rpms.

Hmmmmmmmmm. Thanks.

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Jeff (in SF) said:

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STRADALE said:

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Jeff (in SF) said:

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STRADALE said:

On very steep hills in the 996TT it is very difficult to pull away from a dead stop without either rolling back, stalling or relaesing it at higher rpms.

Not really. Any manual equipped car with a handbrake mounted between the seats is easy to handle on steep hills. Simply use the handbrake to hold the car while you feed in gas and let out the clutch. Practicing with a '72 Nova with a floor mounted parking brake and column mounted 3 speed manual was a bit of a challenge. My manual 996 is quite easy to get up and down the hills - going forward or in reverse to snag a parking space is easy to manage. A F1 Ferrari however...you're stuck with using the valet - and I shudder to think what they're doing with your Ferrari while you're inside having dinner!!

I don't know. I've had quite a few manuel sports cars. Muscle cars and European Exotics and the TT takes a lot more getting used to.

As for the valets driving my Ferrari..I haven't given my keys to a valet yet. And I never will.. The one time I went out to dinner w/ the car and there was a valet he moved some traffic cones and let me park in the closest spot. If it really becomes a problem with the valets maybe I'll sell the car........Yeah right.

Thanks for 'shudder'ing though

It only means that I and other manual equipped cars get to take advantage of more of SF than F1 equpped cars because I'm not as limited on where I can park or take the car. Not all of the fine restaurants and fun places to go in SF have valets, or parking lots, or are located on nice flat streets right?

Huh ? I wouldn't have any problem driving an F1 in SF.

The last time I was there I was on a 750 lb. Harley Davidson Electra Glide with 50lbs. of gear and my wife (no wife jokes please) and we got around just fine. Went wherever we wanted. As long as you have enough sense to park the bike with the front facing uphill. We even went down Lombard Street. We rode the bike from LA to SF in one day going through the desert (I belive it was Route 5) then spent a week riding from SF back to LA on the Pacific Coast Highway. One of th best rides I've been on btw.

Why would you not be able to take an F1 car to places in SF ?

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MKW said:

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Jeff (in SF) said:

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STRADALE said:

On very steep hills in the 996TT it is very difficult to pull away from a dead stop without either rolling back, stalling or relaesing it at higher rpms.

Not really. Any manual equipped car with a handbrake mounted between the seats is easy to handle on steep hills. Simply use the handbrake to hold the car while you feed in gas and let out the clutch. Practicing with a '72 Nova with a floor mounted parking brake and column mounted 3 speed manual was a bit of a challenge. My manual 996 is quite easy to get up and down the hills - going forward or in reverse to snag a parking space is easy to manage. A F1 Ferrari however...you're stuck with using the valet - and I shudder to think what they're doing with your Ferrari while you're inside having dinner!!

You must have a reg 996. There is a difference in clutch take up point between reg 996 and GT3 vs the 996 Turbo. The former have a low take up point, so you can inch forward with minimal release of clutch/addition of throttle so there is no backward motion.
The 996 Turbo clutch is very overboosted ( no feel ) AND doesn't " bite " until nearly 80% released . So to get going on a steep hill , you must release the clutch quickly and quite far to bite and give it some stab of throttle ( which with E-Gas has a mind of it's own sometimes ) to prevent rolling back . That can lead to what many Turbo drivers refer to as herky / jerky or near stall starts on hills . I have driven manuals on SF hills for almost 30 years and never had the problem like I have on my Turbo , for the above reasons.

THANK YOU! This is exactly what I was TRYING to say.

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STRADALE said:
Why would you not be able to take an F1 car to places in SF ?

You can't really go in reverse up a hill with an F1 car so any parking spaces that are on a hill are pretty much off limits unless you don't mind frying your clutch on a regular business.

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Jeff (in SF) said:

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STRADALE said:

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Jeff (in SF) said:

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STRADALE said:

On very steep hills in the 996TT it is very difficult to pull away from a dead stop without either rolling back, stalling or relaesing it at higher rpms.

Not really. Any manual equipped car with a handbrake mounted between the seats is easy to handle on steep hills. Simply use the handbrake to hold the car while you feed in gas and let out the clutch. Practicing with a '72 Nova with a floor mounted parking brake and column mounted 3 speed manual was a bit of a challenge. My manual 996 is quite easy to get up and down the hills - going forward or in reverse to snag a parking space is easy to manage. A F1 Ferrari however...you're stuck with using the valet - and I shudder to think what they're doing with your Ferrari while you're inside having dinner!!

I don't know. I've had quite a few manuel sports cars. Muscle cars and European Exotics and the TT takes a lot more getting used to.

As for the valets driving my Ferrari..I haven't given my keys to a valet yet. And I never will.. The one time I went out to dinner w/ the car and there was a valet he moved some traffic cones and let me park in the closest spot. If it really becomes a problem with the valets maybe I'll sell the car........Yeah right.

Thanks for 'shudder'ing though

It only means that I and other manual equipped cars get to take advantage of more of SF than F1 equpped cars because I'm not as limited on where I can park or take the car. Not all of the fine restaurants and fun places to go in SF have valets, or parking lots, or are located on nice flat streets right?

Don't know of any desirable restaurants in SF where valet parking isn't avail (and I routinely take F1-equipped F's to well-regarded SF restaurants)...and where giving attdt a mere $20 tip doesn't give one ability to park own car in front of restaurant......beauty of SF is many of car guys aren't regulars at great restaurants (and many of foodies aren't car guys...in any case, many of guys who truly enjoy wine prob smartly get a Merc S-Class and driver to take them home)...and SF is too long a drive from Atherton/Woodside where most of the truly hard-core car guys hang out.....also, last I chkd, there ain't no valet parking in front of Daniel/Per Se in NYC....it's all S-Classes and drivers waiting for guys getting some grub and some grape juice...

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VKSF said:
Don't know of any desirable restaurants in SF where valet parking isn't avail (and I routinely take F1-equipped F's to well-regarded SF restaurants)...and where giving attdt a mere $20 tip doesn't give one ability to park own car in front of restaurant......beauty of SF is many of car guys aren't regulars at great restaurants (and many of foodies aren't car guys...in any case, many of guys who truly enjoy wine prob smartly get a Merc S-Class and driver to take them home)...and SF is too long a drive from Atherton/Woodside where most of the truly hard-core car guys hang out.....also, last I chkd, there ain't no valet parking in front of Daniel/Per Se in NYC....it's all S-Classes and drivers waiting for guys getting some grub and some grape juice...

Uh....OK

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Jeff (in SF) said:

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STRADALE said:
Why would you not be able to take an F1 car to places in SF ?

You can't really go in reverse up a hill with an F1 car so any parking spaces that are on a hill are pretty much off limits unless you don't mind frying your clutch on a regular business.

You cant ? I didn't know this. Haven't had any problems whatesoever w/ the F1 on hills but obviously the streets in the NorthEast are not like SF. That would suck. I'd move.

Which F1 did you have Jeff ?

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STRADALE said:

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Jeff (in SF) said:

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STRADALE said:
Why would you not be able to take an F1 car to places in SF ?

You can't really go in reverse up a hill with an F1 car so any parking spaces that are on a hill are pretty much off limits unless you don't mind frying your clutch on a regular business.

You cant ? I didn't know this. Haven't had any problems whatesoever w/ the F1 on hills but obviously the streets in the NorthEast are not like SF. That would suck. I'd move.

Which F1 did you have Jeff ?

Maybe I misinterpreted the earlier posts in this thread - I don't have an F1 but people who do/did indicated that the F1 doesn't really work when you have to back up in reverse up a hill. Did I misunderstand?

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Jeff (in SF) said:

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STRADALE said:

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Jeff (in SF) said:

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STRADALE said:
Why would you not be able to take an F1 car to places in SF ?

You can't really go in reverse up a hill with an F1 car so any parking spaces that are on a hill are pretty much off limits unless you don't mind frying your clutch on a regular business.

You cant ? I didn't know this. Haven't had any problems whatesoever w/ the F1 on hills but obviously the streets in the NorthEast are not like SF. That would suck. I'd move.

Which F1 did you have Jeff ?

Maybe I misinterpreted the earlier posts in this thread - I don't have an F1 but people who do/did indicated that the F1 doesn't really work when you have to back up in reverse up a hill. Did I misunderstand?

As always you did miss understand. It is because you are so intent on finding fault in a Ferrari. Though you can do reverse going uphill, it does put addtional strain on the F1 clutch. Again no different than a manual.

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nberry said:

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Jeff (in SF) said:

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STRADALE said:

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Jeff (in SF) said:

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STRADALE said:
Why would you not be able to take an F1 car to places in SF ?

You can't really go in reverse up a hill with an F1 car so any parking spaces that are on a hill are pretty much off limits unless you don't mind frying your clutch on a regular business.

You cant ? I didn't know this. Haven't had any problems whatesoever w/ the F1 on hills but obviously the streets in the NorthEast are not like SF. That would suck. I'd move.

Which F1 did you have Jeff ?

Maybe I misinterpreted the earlier posts in this thread - I don't have an F1 but people who do/did indicated that the F1 doesn't really work when you have to back up in reverse up a hill. Did I misunderstand?

As always you did miss understand. It is because you are so intent on finding fault in a Ferrari. Though you can do reverse going uphill, it does put addtional strain on the F1 clutch. Again no different than a manual.

FYI The F430 F1 has two clutches, small ones, and it is a greater strain on them to deal with uphill start stops etc.,than a manual because the electronic sensors and transmission controls were developed for a smooth level surface. F1 does not function seamlessly perfect like a 70's Chrsyler Torqflite in real world driving. I suggest that Ferrari has a bit more to go, like adding a steep hill to Fiorano and trying to parallel park it smoothly. Its still a great car, but with Ferrari, you expect perfection with the passion, so let them deliver both and not gloss over any faults they can fix if they wish to.

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nberry said: Though you can do reverse going uphill, it does put addtional strain on the F1 clutch. Again no different than a manual.

On the contrary its very different than a manual. A manual has NO problems reversing uphill, maybe you have forgoten, but you can do it all day long. But the F1... how much does a burnt clutch on the F1 go for these days?

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Carlos from Spain said:

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nberry said: Though you can do reverse going uphill, it does put addtional strain on the F1 clutch. Again no different than a manual.

On the contrary its very different than a manual. A manual has NO problems reversing uphill, maybe you have forgoten, but you can do it all day long. But the F1... how much does a burnt clutch on the F1 go for these days?

Exactly. I have 58K on my 996 clutch (original) and plenty more to go. How long does the F1 clutch last? Kind of a moot point because F1's usually sit in the garage and don't rack up lots of miles for fear of huge service/repair bills and substantial depreciation.