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    May 8, 2005 3:51:52 PM

    nberry Offline
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    The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    and in with the F1. The deputy manager director of Ferrari is quoted "On the 360, the transmission was a personal choice. Now, with the 430, you cannot reach the car's limits without the F1."

    The days of manual are numbered. Once Porsche begins to market their version, only the very hard core will continue to order the manual. Several years ago, Hurley Haywood told me his car would be the TT with tiptronic. If the 997 TT has a version of F1, you guys would be crazy not to consider it.

    May 8, 2005 5:06:03 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Sounds to me you are just trying to justify yourself becuase you only drive auto's... I bet the F1 is the only way to reach the car's limits in the San Diego streets right? I bet thats why you choose a auto-box

    Auto trannies are good for "profesional racing" but there is a difference between whats good for competition and what good for driving pleasure and enjoyment, when you realise that, you will come to the conclusion that there will always be manuals offered as an option becuase they will always have a demand.

    Unless you can't drive a clutch, have a health issue like a lowback problem, have to share the car with a significant other that can't drive, plan on competing in motorsports with the car, or simply don't want the car for driving enjoyment and rather for other uses instead like a fashion statements and such... then the manual will always be the choice fo a "street" sportcar.

    In the words of your hero, Jeremy Clarkson, about the F1 gearbox: "... better yet if you are a serious driver you can have a proper manual with a clutch pedal. This (F1 gearbox) is really designed for... you know... poseurs, perople who have got carpet wharehouses in Huddersfield so they can show of the the mates at the golf club... "there I've got one of them gearboxes like Michael Scuuumacher""

    May 8, 2005 5:32:54 PM

    MKW
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    The pleasure involved in shifting depends on the car , whether driven around town or on a winding back road or at it's limits on the track. I've been heel and toeing for over 30 years . The 996 Turbo is well known to have an overly boosted clutch ( that feels like an econocar ) with a very high take up point - no pleasure there , compared to the nice stiff direct low take -up clutch action on a GT3. The Porsche cable shifter is feeless also- even with the aftermarket shifters that just shorten the throw and or introduce more " stiction " , which is fake " racy " .
    OTOH, taking a car like a Miata through the clik-clik gear box is sheer pleasure.

    I'll take the DSG verson of the 997 Turbo, thank you, as I suspect the same with it's 6 spd manual.

    May 8, 2005 5:44:13 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Sounds to me you are just trying to justify yourself becuase you only drive auto's... I bet the F1 is the only way to reach the car's limits in the San Diego streets right? I bet thats why you choose a auto-box

    Auto trannies are good for "profesional racing" but there is a difference between whats good for competition and what good for driving pleasure and enjoyment, when you realise that, you will come to the conclusion that there will always be manuals offered as an option becuase they will always have a demand.

    Unless you can't drive a clutch, have a health issue like a lowback problem, have to share the car with a significant other that can't drive, plan on competing in motorsports with the car, or simply don't want the car for driving enjoyment and rather for other uses instead like a fashion statements and such... then the manual will always be the choice fo a "street" sportcar.

    In the words of your hero, Jeremy Clarkson, about the F1 gearbox: "... better yet if you are a serious driver you can have a proper manual with a clutch pedal. This (F1 gearbox) is really designed for... you know... poseurs, perople who have got carpet wharehouses in Huddersfield so they can show of the the mates at the golf club... "there I've got one of them gearboxes like Michael Scuuumacher""



    You can lead a mule to water but you cannot......

    So your position is you will buy a car equipped in a way you cannot enjoy the limits of the car? I suggest you go a buy a MB with manual and shift your rear end off.

    May 8, 2005 6:10:07 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    So your position is you will buy a car equipped in a way you cannot enjoy the limits of the car? I suggest you go a buy a MB with manual and shift your rear end off.



    Tell me Nick, were do you enjoy the limits of the F430? you will never be even close to its limits
    Its about the "driver's" limits which are much lower, especially on the streets, and since the auto takes out part of the challenge and skill needed for driving, then with an auto, the limits for the driver are raised becuase its easier, more playstaion like, but were does that get you? Is it more fun? are you competing in a race were fractions of a second counts?

    Argueing that with an auto you can now enjoy the limits of a 490HP car on the streets is an amusing excuse ... brings us back to Clarkson's quote above

    May 8, 2005 6:38:32 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    If a Ferrari street car had a 17,000 RPM rev range like a F1 car, I could understand the mechanical need for it, but their street cars don't make 17K - 20K rpms.

    I give Ferrari give full credit for offering a optional F1 device on their street cars to give their customers a whiff of F1. Its a cute toy for those who like branded gadgetry. It makes their customers happy, so let them enjoy it. Maybe they could offer a CD with recorded pit instructions from different race tracks to play along with it!

    It doesnt trumpet any breakthrough in street useability to achieve ultimate performance. Thats the hard part for F1 buyers to understand.

    As for Hurley Haywood saying that he would choose a 996TT with a Tip, thats no endorsment of a tip, manual or a hot air balloon. Haywood is a professional driver who could easily lap any of us with no effort at all.

    May 8, 2005 6:46:17 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    So your position is you will buy a car equipped in a way you cannot enjoy the limits of the car? I suggest you go a buy a MB with manual and shift your rear end off.



    Tell me Nick, were do you enjoy the limits of the F430? you will never be even close to its limits
    Its about the "driver's" limits which are much lower, especially on the streets, and since the auto takes out part of the challenge and skill needed for driving, then with an auto, the limits for the driver are raised becuase its easier, more playstaion like, but were does that get you? Is it more fun? are you competing in a race were fractions of a second counts?

    Argueing that with an auto you can now enjoy the limits of a 490HP car on the streets is an amusing excuse ... brings us back to Clarkson's quote above



    Oh my, you really have shot yourself in the foot. Why buy Porsche especially a S, TT, GT2/3 or CGT? You could not reach their limits on a public street or highway. Buy a Miata or similar sport car and do not waste your money. Just thnk of all the fun you will have moving all your limbs frantically as you try to extract all you can from the car.


    I buy potential. I may want to test the car at its limits whether on a street or track. It is good to know that the car I bought allows me to do that.

    Carlos, in your chiropractic practice I am sure you use the latest equipment and manipulation techniques. Just apply that approach to your cars and bikes. I am trying to help you here. Don't fight it. The issue of manual as opposed to sequential tranny in high performance cars is over. BMW, MB and Porsche are converting.

    May 8, 2005 7:00:15 PM

    SoCal Alan
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I buy potential. I may want to test the car at its limits whether on a street or track. It is good to know that the car I bought allows me to do that.




    Nick, not to pick on you but on a previous post some time ago you mentioned you weren't going to track the car anyways.

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Patriek (jennyz) said:


    What decided you NOT to go for the carbon brakes ?



    Patriek, since I have no intention to track the car, carbon brakes seemed very expensive to me. Also, the only resaon why I even considered them was because of their appearance inside the wheel compared to the standard brake. In my opinion unless you look closely and are very knowledgeable the difference is caliper size is not that dramatic.

    The car is priced once it arrives in the US(in NJ). Based on what I have ordered I estimate it will cost around $185,000-$190,000.



    With the earlier line of reasoning for wanting the F1 transmission, why wouldn't you also consider the ceramic brakes? If you wanted to be "bleeding edge", you would also get the racing brakes, correct?

    May 8, 2005 7:01:09 PM

    Dr. Phil Offline
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    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    I don't quite understand your (Jim and Carlos) objection to the potential, new Ferrari policy on trannys. Auto-trannies are not for street sportscars? I have to disagree.
    Have you ever tried the F1 tranny? The NEW version, not the one they had in the first 360's, but the revised version from around 2003?
    IMO it's simply amazing. Drive slow, drive fast. Doesn't matter. From what I've experienced in my buddy's 360 spider, it rocked.
    I dunno if auro trannies are the way to go, but as long as they provide the same feedback and enjoyment as a manual one, I see no reason why people wouldn't accept the F1-only policy from Ferrari and other producers.

    I remember when Shimano changed the gear/brake lever system for mountainbikes the year before last...everyone thought it was a short-lived fluke. The system is so good, they changed every single model in their program and do no longer offer the old system.
    The only enemy of changes for the better, are conventions and habits....and those obstacles disappear the moment people see and feel the benefits of switching.

    As for Nick's comment on the MB trannies:
    MB can ONLY produce auto trannies.
    Their manual ones are simply absolutely useless...so Nick, that part of your argument isn't as valid as the other ones you had, I'm afraid

    May 8, 2005 7:07:48 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual



    Nick, I'm trying to point out to you the difference between work and pleasure. If you are racing then a sequential is the way to go since its all about results, just like in my office and yours as well.

    But street driving is not about results its about pleasure and enjoyment, i.e. the experience. Surely you can tell apart the experience of driving a S, TT, GT2/3 or CGT versus a Miata, no? thast why people spend more money on these cars... the manual only adds to that experience

    You think you can extract the potential of a F430 on the streets? I would like to see you going 10/10ths on the SD streets on the F430 and you are being mislead if you think the F1 makes a big difference on the streets... unless you are a poor manual driver. So unless you are really bad at manual shifting you won't notice much performance difference on the streets and mountain roads, yet the experience will be difference and more diluted with the F1 for many drivers.

    May 8, 2005 7:16:02 PM

    ben, lj
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    Reply to: Dr. Phil

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    gotta hand it to ferrari for knowing their target market and extracting another $15k out of them so they can drive the car. it was brilliant to call it "F1 technology". most fcar buyers have eaten that burberry horseschit right up.

    btw dr. phil, as for the newer f1 fcar granny trannies being the best thing since sliced bread, here's what automobile had to say about the f1 in ferraris very latest version (the 430 spider), "The F430 is a maneuverable car around town, as mid-engined nutboxes go. But - in large measure the result of the F1 transmission - stop-start, K-turns, and tight parking maneuvers are not its force. The box is slow to find reverse; the car must come to a full stop, and the brakes must be firmly applied. This leads inevitably to moments of unwanted exposure, such as when trying to turn around on a narrow two-lane road. Waiting for the reverse indicator to light up when you're motionless sideways to traffic, the idea of phoning home to see if your life insurance is paid up suddenly seems advisable."

    my experience in my 04 stradale from which current 430 f1 technology was taken, is very similar to automobile's though i would add it's boring as $hit on the street as well.

    gotta admit socalalan's question re: not opting for ceramics if the f1 was ordered to "have" the car's "potential" is a good one. i've been on the track in a steel brake equipped 430 and it was pathetic. the smell of burning brake fluid fills the cockpit before the first lap is even complete and they just feel so much crudier than the ceramics. no way you reach the car's "full potential" with the steel stoppers.

    May 8, 2005 7:16:39 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: Dr. Phil

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    I dunno if auro trannies are the way to go, but as long as they provide the same feedback and enjoyment as a manual one, I see no reason why people wouldn't accept the F1-only policy from Ferrari and other producers.




    Thats the point Dr.Phil. For some drivers, the feedback and enjoyment is reduced when you take out the third pedal and stick, and let the computer heel toe, match rev, shift, etc for you. Thats why there should be TWO options, one for those that like the sequential and others that like the manual, but what Nick is defending is that EVERYBODY should love and want the sequential. I may someday get a sequential on one of my cars just for the novelty but the manual will be my main choice in sportcars. Sequentials yes, but manuals also, the more choice the better.

    May 8, 2005 7:18:58 PM

    ben, lj
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    I dunno if auro trannies are the way to go, but as long as they provide the same feedback and enjoyment as a manual one, I see no reason why people wouldn't accept the F1-only policy from Ferrari and other producers.




    Thats the point Dr.Phil. For some drivers, the feedback and enjoyment is reduced when you take out the third pedal and stick, and let the computer heel toe, match rev, shift, etc for you. Thats why there should be TWO options, one for those that like the sequential and others that like the manual, but what Nick is defending is that EVERYBODY should love and want the sequential. I may someday get a sequential on one of my cars just for the novelty but the manual will be my main choice in sportcars. Sequentials yes, but manuals also, the more choice the better.



    f1 granny trannies aren't true sequentials anyway.

    May 8, 2005 7:21:53 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Reply to: ben, lj

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    gotta hand it to ferrari for knowing their target market and extracting another $15k out of them so they can drive the car. it was brilliant to call it "F1 technology". most fcar buyers have eaten that burberry horseschit right up.



    Yeah, F1 technology... thats a good one, I still get a chuckle when I hear that one


    Quote:

    btw dr. phil, as for the newer f1s fcar trannies being the best thing since sliced bread, here's what automobile had to say about the f1 in ferraris very latest version (the 430 spider), "The F430 is a maneuverable car around town, as mid-engined nutboxes go. But - in large measure the result of the F1 transmission - stop-start, K-turns, and tight parking maneuvers are not its force. The box is slow to find reverse; the car must come to a full stop, and the brakes must be firmly applied. This leads inevitably to moments of unwanted exposure, such as when trying to turn around on a narrow two-lane road. Waiting for the reverse indicator to light up when you're motionless sideways to traffic, the idea of phoning home to see if your life insurance is paid up suddenly seems advisable."



    And try to go uphill in reverse

    Quote:
    my experience in my 04 stradale from which current 430 f1 technology was taken, is very similar to automobile's though i would add it's boring as $hit on the street as well.



    Just be thankful Porsche didn't go that route in the CGT

    May 8, 2005 7:28:46 PM

    Dr. Phil Offline
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    Reply to: ben, lj

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    I dunno if the F1 is the way to go in the future, but from the few times I drove my friend's 360 it was a hoot.
    Granted, having massive practical problems when parking etc is of course a no-no, and things likee that shouldn't happen at all in a car that is built for the street.
    There is something authentic about the manual shift, but when you get over the lack of right-arm workout, an auto or semi-auto, semi-sequential or whatever gearbox can be every bit as fun as a manual one, and IMO more precise, faster and perhaps even practical if they fix the obvious problems.

    Of F-cars I've only tried an old 308 with manual gearbox, so I have no reference at all.
    All I know is I believe the F1 tranny worked like Hansel in Gretel.

    May 8, 2005 7:35:03 PM

    ben, lj
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    Reply to: Dr. Phil

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    I dunno if the F1 is the way to go in the future, but from the few times I drove my friend's 360 it was a hoot.



    i thoroughly enjoyed both the SMG in my wife's M3 and the F1 in my stradale "the first few times i drove" them too. however, i'm a driver and they both got real boring real fast once i got used to the cars and it wasn't "all new". i don't doubt the rush of sensory imput from your first few times driving a 360 spider left you feeling it was a hoot. but, if you're a driver, the granny tranny will eventually detract from the driving experience.

    May 8, 2005 8:03:52 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: SoCal Alan

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I buy potential. I may want to test the car at its limits whether on a street or track. It is good to know that the car I bought allows me to do that.




    Nick, not to pick on you but on a previous post some time ago you mentioned you weren't going to track the car anyways.

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Patriek (jennyz) said:


    What decided you NOT to go for the carbon brakes ?



    Patriek, since I have no intention to track the car, carbon brakes seemed very expensive to me. Also, the only resaon why I even considered them was because of their appearance inside the wheel compared to the standard brake. In my opinion unless you look closely and are very knowledgeable the difference is caliper size is not that dramatic.

    The car is priced once it arrives in the US(in NJ). Based on what I have ordered I estimate it will cost around $185,000-$190,000.



    With the earlier line of reasoning for wanting the F1 transmission, why wouldn't you also consider the ceramic brakes? If you wanted to be "bleeding edge", you would also get the racing brakes, correct?



    Alan it is interesting you would bring that up. When I wrote the response to Carlos I asked myself well what about carbon brakes. My answer is simple. I can reach the limits of the car using ceramic or steel brakes.

    Regarding the tracking the car, I have no intention to do so but I certain have the ability to change my mind. The car I own will have the potential to meet its limits.

    Dr.Phil, I was not referring to the MB manuals but referring to the governor restricted top end speed.Using a manual that restrict the car limits is no diferent than a governor.

    Ben, the one article you refer to is the only article that found the F1 in the 430 wanting. Every other article has indicated the F1 in the 430 is the future in the present.They rave bout it.

    Carlos your right. If people wish to continue driving manuals then they should have the right. However, with each car delivered equipped with manual they should be a mandatorY sticker on the rear bumper reading

    THIS CAR MOVES OVER TO ALLOW CARS EQUIPPED WITH SEQUENTIAL TRANNIES TO PASS.

    May 8, 2005 8:12:28 PM

    ben, lj
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I buy potential. I may want to test the car at its limits whether on a street or track. It is good to know that the car I bought allows me to do that.




    Nick, not to pick on you but on a previous post some time ago you mentioned you weren't going to track the car anyways.

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Patriek (jennyz) said:


    What decided you NOT to go for the carbon brakes ?



    Patriek, since I have no intention to track the car, carbon brakes seemed very expensive to me. Also, the only resaon why I even considered them was because of their appearance inside the wheel compared to the standard brake. In my opinion unless you look closely and are very knowledgeable the difference is caliper size is not that dramatic.

    The car is priced once it arrives in the US(in NJ). Based on what I have ordered I estimate it will cost around $185,000-$190,000.



    With the earlier line of reasoning for wanting the F1 transmission, why wouldn't you also consider the ceramic brakes? If you wanted to be "bleeding edge", you would also get the racing brakes, correct?



    Ben, the one article you refer to is the only article that found the F1 in the 430 wanting. Every other article has indicated the F1 in the 430 is the future in the present.They rave bout it.




    what in particular, if anything, did you find in those f1 tranny comments in Automobile which were inconsistent with your personal experience?

    May 8, 2005 8:26:35 PM

    MKW
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    Reply to: ben, lj

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    One concern I have with these newer trannies is San Francisco's steep 30 degree hills around Pacific Heights and Russian Hill . A friend of mine cannot take his 360 F1financial district there when there is a chance of crawling traffic ( basically between 8 am and 11 pm ! ) . The stench from his clutch slipping is overwhelming . And parallel parking on a hill - forget it. Will the DSG on Porsche's be just as bad , since I drive these areas all the time w/o a problem with a traditional manual .

    May 8, 2005 8:42:20 PM

    fritz
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    Reply to: Dr. Phil

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    ... and perhaps even practical if they fix the obvious problems.:)


    You said it, Dr. Phil: " IF they fix the obvious problems".

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    All I know is I believe the F1 tranny worked like Hansel in Gretel.




    I'm just guessing here, but did Hansel also overheat and get worn out?

    May 8, 2005 9:28:21 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: fritz

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    The F1 tranny is not really useable in all traffic conditions. It just a sop to Ferrari fans with
    Schuey posters on their walls and fat wallets.

    Try driving one in rush hour traffic or parallel
    parking on a hill on a very busy street.

    Yet Ferrari has CONVINCED some of their clientel that they just HAVE to have it and MUST spend 15K for it.

    My hats off to Ferrari!



    May 8, 2005 10:03:11 PM

    FutchM
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    Reply to: nberry

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    and in with the F1. The deputy manager director of Ferrari is quoted "On the 360, the transmission was a personal choice. Now, with the 430, you cannot reach the car's limits without the F1."

    The days of manual are numbered. Once Porsche begins to market their version, only the very hard core will continue to order the manual. Several years ago, Hurley Haywood told me his car would be the TT with tiptronic. If the 997 TT has a version of F1, you guys would be crazy not to consider it.



    I believe it is still good that both are offered Nick, not you?
    I mean, it's like you wrote yourself, although not too sure about the comparison: Some people like to write letters with a computer and some with a pen, to each his own no?
    It is interesting to see the demand according to markets actually, in France so far for F430, it's 30% manual, in the UK, it's closer to 50%
    Brits are purists when it comes to motoring, in the US, I do not know.

    Also, in Autocar, following strong demand from BMW US, they are going to introduced manual versions of the M5 and M6.

    End of the day, I say both systems have plus and minus and it's great to have the choice.

    You've made yours Nick and we respect that, so respect us too please.
    We know what are the plus and minus of both systems, thank you very much.

    May 8, 2005 11:04:45 PM

    nberry Offline
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    Reply to: ben, lj

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Ben, I disagree with the slowness of engaging reverse or any gear that he alleges.I do agree with MKW that starting on SF hills is not its forte. But what tranny can withstand those conditions over and over again.?


    This much I am reasonably certain of. If your CGT had the Porsche version of F1 it would be worth $100,000 more today.

    Fanch, I do respect other opinions. What I do not understand is people taking the position that a good car requires a person to drive it perfectly as opposed to a good car being one that allows the driver to drive it perfectly. See the difference?

    May 8, 2005 11:15:32 PM

    Jeff (in SF)
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:


    Nick, I'm trying to point out to you the difference between work and pleasure. If you are racing then a sequential is the way to go since its all about results, just like in my office and yours as well.

    But street driving is not about results its about pleasure and enjoyment, i.e. the experience. Surely you can tell apart the experience of driving a S, TT, GT2/3 or CGT versus a Miata, no? thast why people spend more money on these cars... the manual only adds to that experience

    You think you can extract the potential of a F430 on the streets? I would like to see you going 10/10ths on the SD streets on the F430 and you are being mislead if you think the F1 makes a big difference on the streets... unless you are a poor manual driver. So unless you are really bad at manual shifting you won't notice much performance difference on the streets and mountain roads, yet the experience will be difference and more diluted with the F1 for many drivers.



    Btw, did anyone see Motor Trend's calculations of the actual shift speed of the F430's F1 tranny? Ferrari is a bit optimistic quoting 15 milliseconds. The fastest shift times Motor Trend got from the F1 tranny using the supersecret-not-supposed-to-be-available launch control mode was between 21 and 29 milliseconds (almost twice as long as Ferrari quotes). Ford's GT on the other hand using a plain old manual transmission ranged from 16 to 29 milliseconds. So although the F1 might be more repeatable in the hands of novices and experts alike, I concur with the others posting here that it's more satisfying for many to work the gears and clutch yourself. Oh, and it's also nice to know that I can extract significantly more miles out of my manual clutch than anyone's been getting out of an F1 system where I hear clutch life is maybe 20,000 miles if you're lucky. Sounds like you're giving up a lot if you go for F1.
    -----
    "If you want to be somebody, you drive a Ferrari. If you are somebody, you drive a Porsche."

    (paraphrased quote from Frank Sinatra - substituting Porsche for Lamborghini)

    May 8, 2005 11:31:40 PM

    WCH
    Junior
    WCH
    Loc: USA East
    Posts: 135, Gallery
    Registered on: Nov 4, 2003
    Reply to: Jeff (in SF)

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    I prefer an F1 - I like it better than the manual. I find it more "involving" and "satisfying." I find the manual, on a modern car, awkward and outdated, though I very much like it on my Fiat 500 and Vespa 400. So cute, so ... well, retro.

    Even Fanch calls the manual crowd "purists;" now that even entry level amateur track and race cars arrive equipped with sequentials, aren't the paddles the correct choice of "purists"?

    My 430 will have the F1 and steel brakes. I don't plan to track the car and, even if I did, I'm confident that in a battle of 430s, one with steel, the other with ceramic brakes, the better driver will "win" every time.

    I'm surprised at the reaction of some of the Porsche folks - gentlemen, there's nothing to fear, with practice, you'd be able to work the paddles, too.

    May 8, 2005 11:34:17 PM

    Tim
    Pilot
    Tim
    Loc: Germany , Germany
    Posts: 458, Gallery
    Registered on: Dec 24, 2002
    Reply to: nberry

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:

    This much I am reasonably certain of. If your CGT had the Porsche version of F1 it would be worth $100,000 more today.




    I happen to disagree. Part of the CGT's appeal stems from the fact that it is the culmination of old-school technology. Mechanical engineering at its best without the ubiquitous electronic aids present in most modern cars. It's raw - one could say it's a toy for real men!

    The approach of the GT can be compared to the realm of watches. Quartz watches may be superior in their precision, but mechanical watches are far more attractive due to their old-fashioned internals. It's that timelessness thing again, Nick.

    Hope this has enlightened you why the CGT to some is incomparable to any other super sportscar.

    Tim

    May 8, 2005 11:42:50 PM

    ben, lj
    Expert
    ben, lj
    Loc:
    Posts: 1373, Gallery
    Registered on: Jul 6, 2003
    Reply to: JimFlat6

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    The F1 tranny is not really useable in all traffic conditions...Try driving one in rush hour traffic...




    i got stuck in rush hour for an hour to hour and a half in my stradale and was so damn frustrated. it was by far the most miserable traffic experience i've had thus far.

    May 8, 2005 11:47:26 PM

    ben, lj
    Expert
    ben, lj
    Loc:
    Posts: 1373, Gallery
    Registered on: Jul 6, 2003
    Reply to: nberry

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Ben, I disagree with the slowness of engaging reverse or any gear that he alleges.I do agree with MKW that starting on SF hills is not its forte. But what tranny can withstand those conditions over and over again.?


    This much I am reasonably certain of. If your CGT had the Porsche version of F1 it would be worth $100,000 more today.




    your f1 musta been a whole lot different than my stradale because i experienced the same slowness in reverse the automobile article author did. worst still, because of the poor visability, i would try and back out of my garage with the door open. however, it won't stay in reverse with the door open.

    the cgt might be worth $100k more to the poseurs who originally and mistakenly bought the wrong car, but it'd be worth an easy $100k less to me if it had F1. i don't think i'll ever order or buy a car again with the fake sequential unless it's a car my wife will be driving too.

    May 8, 2005 11:51:59 PM

    ben, lj
    Expert
    ben, lj
    Loc:
    Posts: 1373, Gallery
    Registered on: Jul 6, 2003
    Reply to: WCH

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    WCH said: gentlemen, there's nothing to fear, with practice, you'd be able to work the paddles, too.



    anyone who can pull their prick out their pants to take a wiz (or make up out of their purse) can "work" the paddles.

    May 9, 2005 2:39:08 AM

    MKW
    Rennteam Pro
    MKW
    Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States
    Posts: 2491, Gallery
    Registered on: Nov 22, 2002
    Reply to: nberry

    Re: The transformation is now complete. Out with the manual

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I do agree with MKW that starting on SF hills is not its forte. But what tranny can withstand those conditions over and over again.?






    I lived in SF for 7 years and drove nothing but manuals going up and down hills in daily traffic and parking . Never had a clutch or tranny issue or burnt clutch smell once . My wife grew up in The City and drove a manual for years w/o problems either .
     
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