Crown

I don’t know, I think if Ham went from 11th to 4th in that mess of a car, it would have been another great performance from the GOAT, but since it was Russell, it was just “luck”. Anyway, there are a lot of contenders this year, and hopefully the porpoising gets sorted before it does long term damage to the drivers.

Carlos from Spain:

JoeRockhead:

Is Hamilton the new Bottas at Merc? 

Russell has been solid with the same shi**y car, and it looks bad on Hamilton. Maybe his heart is no longer in it. 

It's not a surprise to many that this would happen, Hamilton should of not come back after last season, at least this way he would of maintained the illusion to his fan boys that he was the best driver of the grid all these years and not the fact that that he was cruising with a car that was a category class above every other driver's and was given a mediocre teammate on purpose that didn't challenge him making him look better than he is, just like Vettel while at RB except he had tougher teammates.

I was actually surprised to see that they allowed a guy like Russell to drive the same car this season because this was going to happen.

spot on ! (Vettel in the past surely too)

JoeRockhead:

I don’t know, I think if Ham went from 11th to 4th in that mess of a car, it would have been another great performance from the GOAT, but since it was Russell, it was just “luck”. Anyway, there are a lot of contenders this year, and hopefully the porpoising gets sorted before it does long term damage to the drivers.

Reread what I wrote, I have said a couple times that Russell beat Hamilton at Emilia Romagna.  I said this earlier:

 "Russell had a better weekend than Hamilton to not be stuck due to better Qualifying in and Sprint Race results.  Hamilton should take the weekend on the chin versus Russell and move on."

And I said this:

"when his team mate is ahead one week on skill and two other weeks with racing luck."

Emilia Romagna was the skill week.  The benefit of race gods being Australia and Saudi Arabia.

Whoopsy:

JoeRockhead:

Whoopsy. Really? Dismissing differing opinions by blaming it on racism? Sounds very left wing to me.  Pointing out that Russell is beating him in the same car is hardly racist, but it does reveal Hamilton’s flaws, doesn’t it?

Hamilton is as good as his car allows him to be, and always has been. Put him in a midfield car, and he will finish in the midfield. Same with Verstappen, Lec, and Russell. Verstappen admitted it himself when he said if they give him a car that can win races, he will win, and if they don’t, he won’t. 

 

Believe it or not, the world is much bigger than this forum on the corner of the internet. There are plenty of race fans out there in the world hating Hamilton just because it is black. I know we are in the 2020s, but it still happens. I wasn't calling out anyone in this forum. 

Racism is still real, just because people still wanted to talk about it. Not just in F1, but any sport, any circles, people still want to raise race as a topic. Or gender for that matters. 

All those this "who is who" is the first woman/trans/black/asian/japanese/chinese/korean/saudi/iraqi/native/whatever to do this or achieve this. That's promoting racism. Why can't they just say who and who achieved this, won that, and be done with it? We are all humans, period. 

Personally I am sick of it, but being sick of it doesn't mean it's not happening, or can't talk about it, the elephant is always standing there in the room. Not talking about or mentioning it doesn't mean the elephant magically disappeared. 

I agree with you on that. There are people who even call Hamilton the "Black One" not even mentioning him by name. Even in the UK he doesn't receive the adulation he deserves for his achievements. Previous champions like Mansell and Damon Hill used to be very well liked even though their standard and achievements were nowhere near Hamilton's.

Barrack Obama was similarly received around the world, as an unwelcome aberration. The irony is  that both have a white mother, so they don't qualify as purely black

For me Hamilton is an all time great and above Michael Schumacher.

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

Counting back the years, every F1 driver's champion has a superior car to go with their title, that isn't a surprise. 

Alonso has the mass damper Renault, Schumacher got the rocket ship Ferrari, Vettel has the double diffuser Red Bull, Hamilton with the split turbo Merc. 

But is every champion 'supposed' to win that year?

Out of the last 20 years, the only driver to win only because of the car is Button. That Brawn car is simply 2 classes above anything else on the grid.

And Kimi lucked out in 2007 when Hamilton made the mistake and beached himself. 

2016 would be another, Rosberg lucked out when Hamilton's engine blew up in Malaysia.

If one wants to talk about Hamilton lucked out with a rocket car, then they don't know their F1 history. The earliest time he clinched his title was with 3 races left, he done it twice.

Vettel clinched with 4 races left one time and 3 another.

Schumacher had twice did it with 4 left and one time with 6 races left, that's called dominant. 

I measure greatness by ability to win in different regulation eras. For the recent champions, Prost is one, his 4 spanned over quite a spread, 2 teams with 3 different engines crossing 3 eras. Schumacher also, 2 teams and 3 engines in 2 eras. Hamilton with 2 teams and 2 completely different Mercedes engines across 3 different regulation eras. I could throw in Piquet in there too. 

Now if Verstappen happens to win this year, he would have won consecutive championships across 2 eras, raising him up to great F1 champions in my books. 

^ For the sake of argument, I would say Schumacher did a better job getting a lesser car to the front of the pack than Hamilton has, especially during this season so far. Exhibit A is Russell's performance. Exhibit B, the 1996 race at Imola. His car was not great, yet he qualified on pole, and finished 2nd. Ham is either out of the game mentally (heart not in it), too old to withstand the porpoising, or he's not as great as everyone says. Discuss. 

thuggy:

Reread what I wrote, I have said a couple times that Russell beat Hamilton at Emilia Romagna.  I said this earlier:

 "Russell had a better weekend than Hamilton to not be stuck due to better Qualifying in and Sprint Race results.  Hamilton should take the weekend on the chin versus Russell and move on."

And I said this:

"when his team mate is ahead one week on skill and two other weeks with racing luck."

Emilia Romagna was the skill week.  The benefit of race gods being Australia and Saudi Arabia.

reginos:

I agree with you on that. There are people who even call Hamilton the "Black One" not even mentioning him by name. 

Funny how the racial stereotyping works, some people have not stopped to think that Hamilton is actually more white than black, genetically his mother is white and his "black" father is of mix Caribbean decent, not 100% sub-saharan African, yet Hamilton is considered black just because the various gene combinations that code for our pigmentation (skin, eyes, hair, etc) tend to favor more pigmentation, so darker tones predominante more than lighter even if they are even genetically

Just goes to show that race in humans is just an illusion, a baseless useless social construct based on something as superficial as the amount of pigment your cells produce independently of your genetic origins. The stupidity of it all is frustrating.

Carlos from Spain:

reginos:

I agree with you on that. There are people who even call Hamilton the "Black One" not even mentioning him by name. 

Funny how the racial stereotyping works, some people have not stopped to think that Hamilton is actually more white than black, genetically his mother is white and his "black" father is of mix Caribbean decent, not 100% sub-saharan African, yet Hamilton is considered black just because the various gene combinations that code for our pigmentation (skin, eyes, hair, etc) tend to favor more pigmentation, so darker tones predominante more than lighter even if they are even genetically

Just goes to show that race in humans is just an illusion, a baseless useless social construct based on something as superficial as the amount of pigment your cells produce independently of your genetic origins. The stupidity of it all is frustrating.

+1000

Topspeed:

Exactly. Russell gained 5 positions at start and Hamilton 2. In the wet is a lottery. See that happened to Sainz...

Then Russell overtook KMag at the chicane so he got into 5th. Later in the race Leclerc did a mistake and Russell got into 4th position.

Yesterday he was the lucky one. Hamilton was stuck behind Gasly and Albon with no DRS for like 20 laps. After that he tried to overtake Gasly so many times but the car is very slow and Gasly also had DRS...so yeah. No chance.

Wasn't it in Saudi Arabia where Hamilton pitted before the SC and Russell did it during the SC? No luck this year so far.

 

+1

JoeRockhead:

^ For the sake of argument, I would say Schumacher did a better job getting a lesser car to the front of the pack than Hamilton has, especially during this season so far. Exhibit A is Russell's performance. Exhibit B, the 1996 race at Imola. His car was not great, yet he qualified on pole, and finished 2nd. Ham is either out of the game mentally (heart not in it), too old to withstand the porpoising, or he's not as great as everyone says. Discuss. 

Most definitely. Schumacher has that win at all cost mentality, hero or zero. Verstappen has the same thing and so does the new generation of young guns, Russell included, and so is Leclerc.

Hamilton on the other hand takes less risk, he would settle for a lower finish in order to finish. No shame coming in 2nd when the alternative is either 1st or DNF. Norris is part of the same cloth. But most importantly, he races clean, as clean as the rule book allowed. He could be right on the limit but he doesn’t go over it just to gain an advantage. 

As for his ability vs his peers, go look at his F2 race where he chased down the whole field, and everyone is on the same car. That’s pure skill and nothing else.

JoeRockhead:

^ For the sake of argument, I would say Schumacher did a better job getting a lesser car to the front of the pack than Hamilton has, especially during this season so far. Exhibit A is Russell's performance. Exhibit B, the 1996 race at Imola. His car was not great, yet he qualified on pole, and finished 2nd. Ham is either out of the game mentally (heart not in it), too old to withstand the porpoising, or he's not as great as everyone says. Discuss. 

Completely forgot to name something for this part. 

If we use your logic between Russell and Hamilton, how about we consider the 3 seasons where Schumacher came back and partnered with Rosberg for 3 season at Mercedes, where Rosberg finished every season ahead of Schumacher. 

Do you consider Schumacher not as great as everyone says he is then? At the time, Schumacher is a 7 time driver's champion, just the same as Hamilton this season. 

Also the expand on my last post about Hamilton's comeback. 2006 Turkey GP2 race. Started P7, dropped down to P19 by lap 2 with a spin, finished P2 20ish lap later. 17 positions gained in 20 laps. In identical cars. 

The 'not so great car' you described for the 96 Ferrari, still finished 2nd in the constructors' championship, it's not like he dragged a 12th ranked team to pole position, his car was 3rd fastest behind the 2 Williams.

Russell's achievements were much more impressive during his Williams years, he literally dragged the 10th rank team 19th ranked car to Q3 by himself. Qualified 2nd place actually behind Max at Spa last year. That's called impressive. 

agree - drivers can make a difference - but not THE difference as I feel it's like 80% car. one can maybe outperform his teammate (if allowed ) but nobody can drive a midfield car on Podium regularly. The only point I don't like is the hype around some "superdrivers" where in fact the credit goes to the car or to some strategic people like Ross Brawn in the past for MS.

I'll bite too.  Given the difference in Machinery, I like the compare to teammates.  Everyone likes to utilize Bottas as the comparison, but I think Bottas is little underrated as evident of what he did at Williams before and what he is doing at Alfa now.  Lewis has 3 former champions on his teammates roster in Alonso, Button and Rosberg, though one of them benefited from Lewis blowing an engine while in lead of a race and one blocked him on a qualilying lap attempt in a very close year.  In comparison, Michael dominated his teammates though admittedly he benefited from team orders probably a bit more especially in the case of Barrichello and Eddie Irvine was a clear number 2.

In head to head comparisons of similar teammates, Michael dominated his teammates with the exception of Nico Rosberg who handled him pretty easily but that was at the end of his career and with the exception of blown engine already mentioned, Lewis handled Nico.

So fun debate, Schumacher was definitely more aggressive and ruthless and a car was magic in in his hands.  Lewis just relentlessly consistent and also with his brand of magic but portably a bit more safe in his approach.

Right now, for those seeking validation for Max Verstappen's 2021 driver's title, the honestly truth is that there isn't. Especially when the FIA came clean about the irregularities on the condition on how Verstappen won. 

He isn't close to Hamilton yet. With a single title, he is more on the level of Rosberg, Button, etc. One hit wonder. He can only be in the conversation if he win again this year fair and square and be a 2 time champion to climb above Rosberg, Button & Co.

Is he better than Hamilton skill wise last year? Perhaps. Same can be said of Russell compared to Hamilton. Difference being Verstappen was in the fastest car last year and Russell in the slowest. Is Leclerc and Norris in the mix? Most definitely. Those 4 are the most skilled on the grid. At 36 Hamilton isn't the best on the grid anymore last year.

Verstappen already got his first, so he is a leg up on the competition. The focus right now is whether Verstappen can earn his second fair and square or will Leclerc claim his first to tie Verstappen, without the asterisk. 

The asterisk isn't fair to Verstappen, but it is what it is. He performed well enough last year to be worthy of the title, leading the most laps and also winning the most races, yet by the same token, Hamilton equally performed well enough to be crowned champion also if not for some questionable decisions. There is no winner for last year's championship. Both are losers, because of the circumstances. Was the FIA biased for one or the other? No. it was simply decided by a mistaken decision. On a binary event, there can only be one winner. 

Maybe some diehard Max fans will disagreed with my assessment, that's ok. If they just take a step back a step or two and see the biggest picture, then it's all clear. Literally this isn't a Max vs Lewis thing. It's just a rule book decision. The FIA's own rule book. 

The stewards had been consistent in penalizing the inside car at a corner last year, see Austria. So in Silverstone they were correct in giving Hamilton a 10 second penalty, consistent with every other decision they made up to that point.  The rulebook never take into account how serious an accident could be, hence it was a waste effort by Horner to mention repeatedly a 51g impact or whatever. The Stewards only deviate from that inside car ruling at Brazil when they let Max off. In Hungary, it wasn't Hamilton that crashed into the pile, it was Bottas. How would Bottas know if he hit car A, then A would crashed into B then C and pinball onto car D? Wishful thinking. When Max crashed out Hamilton at Monza, stewards are again consistent in penalizing the inside car, difference being Max wasn't able to continue in the race so the penalty became a grid drop for the next race. which is a smaller penalty than it can be as 3 place grid drop doesn't even cover a 10 second penalty. More like 3/10th, or 2 seconds max. Abu Dhabi, did Hamilton gained an advantage cutting the corner? He did. But he let up enough for the rest of the lap to negate the advantage taken when the stewards saw the onboard data about the incident, hence no penalty accessed. If only people properly read the rule book instead of blindly listening to Horner or Wolff. Neither is a saint to put it mildly. 

As a long time F1 fan, the rules are always changing so comparing drivers from different eras or even a few years apart is very difficult. As a Schumacher fan, his work ethic was incredible, but in those times there was unlimited testing, Ferrari had its own track. So for someone like Michael, it was easy, practice makes perfect. He was not partying, he was driving that car every minute he could. I am not a Hamilton fan, but he is a great driver. Motivation and age hit us all...

AJ

Recent videos but this was filmed 2-3 years ago.

2 legends of their sports, true GOATS

Topspeed:

Recent videos but this was filmed 2-3 years ago.

 

I enjoyed watching that so much!! ...

I grew up on motorcycle racing and remember watching Vale win back in 125cc, when I was in the states studying there was no way to watch the races on cable TV so my dad would fax me the motorcycle magazines and send me the races on VHS tapes by mail so I could watch them. What Vale has done in motorcycle racing I have not seen done by any F1 driver in F1. It was great to watch how the two worlds mixed by way of these to champions.

 thanks for sharing! 

I ran across this last week. Epic

Really cool, love how genuine they both come across.

1988 Peugeot 205 Rallye / 2004 Porsche 996 GT3 RS  / 2018 Mercedes-AMG E63 S / 2020 Ferrari 812SF

Red Bull should do something like that to top Monster.

Say Max and Travis Pastrana doing a crossover, Travis in Max's car and Max in Travis' Motocross bike, or his Rallycross car.

Whoopsy:

Russell's achievements were much more impressive during his Williams years, he literally dragged the 10th rank team 19th ranked car to Q3 by himself. Qualified 2nd place actually behind Max at Spa last year. That's called impressive.

Russell is younger than Ham, fitter, and hungrier. Ham is on his 'victory lap' this season, and Russell has something to prove. I suppose you could say Schumi was in the same position after he won 7 titles. History repeats itself I guess. Ham will have a hard time beating Russell this year.

Alonso:

"When [Ayrton] Senna won the championships and the races, he had the fastest car. When I won the championship, I had the fastest car. Michael [Schumacher] had the fastest car. Lewis broke all the records and pole positions because he had the fastest car. 

"Today, Lewis is driving super well and he's P13. It's Formula 1."
 

https://racingnews365.com/alonso-wades-in-on-hamilton-debate-amid-mercedes-struggles
 

A lot of people cannot face that fact and will find all sorts of excuses but that is just the reality of it.

JoeRockhead:

Alonso:

"When [Ayrton] Senna won the championships and the races, he had the fastest car. When I won the championship, I had the fastest car. Michael [Schumacher] had the fastest car. Lewis broke all the records and pole positions because he had the fastest car. 

"Today, Lewis is driving super well and he's P13. It's Formula 1."
 

https://racingnews365.com/alonso-wades-in-on-hamilton-debate-amid-mercedes-struggles
 

And he is absolutely correct.

Formula 1 is a team competition first. Teams are trying to build the winning car each season. They then try and find the best drivers available to deliver that championship to them. Which normally in the process, their drivers, well one of them, will win the driver's title. Not always however. 

One look at how the prizes are structured tells the truth. Prize money are given out on where the teams finished, not where individual drivers finished. Top drivers of course will get paid still, but by the teams, and retained.

Whoopsy:

JoeRockhead:

Alonso:

"When [Ayrton] Senna won the championships and the races, he had the fastest car. When I won the championship, I had the fastest car. Michael [Schumacher] had the fastest car. Lewis broke all the records and pole positions because he had the fastest car. 

"Today, Lewis is driving super well and he's P13. It's Formula 1."
 

https://racingnews365.com/alonso-wades-in-on-hamilton-debate-amid-mercedes-struggles
 

 

And he is absolutely correct.

Formula 1 is a team competition first. Teams are trying to build the winning car each season. They then try and find the best drivers available to deliver that championship to them. Which normally in the process, their drivers, well one of them, will win the driver's title. Not always however. 

One look at how the prizes are structured tells the truth. Prize money are given out on where the teams finished, not where individual drivers finished. Top drivers of course will get paid still, but by the teams, and retained.

+1

https://twitter.com/wtf1official/status/1520499372806615047

It’s official.  Porsche and Audi to join Formula in 2026.   Porsche as engine supplier to Red Bull and Audi still in talks with several teams.  

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/vw-says-audi-porsche-f1-entry-in-2026-was-last-chance-for-a-decade/10265978/