Crown

Congrats to VER, pity for PER, unlucky. 

Great race, especially the fights for drs zones. 

Ferdie:

Whoopsy:

The regulation was designed to neuter whoever wins the championship and boosts the bottom teams. F1's version of BoP.  Last year as it happens, it was Mercedes winning so they are the one that got neutered. Well they have been winning many times in a row so their overall development time for the last few years had been less than everyone else. 

The changes in regulation are just that... changes. Some teams adapt better to them, others worse. That has always been the case, as has been several changes over the course of time: dismissal of active suspension, change in wing shape and size, change of vehicle proportions, change to grooved tires, dismissal of grooved tires, dismissal of mass damper system, change to V10, to V8, to V6 turbo engines, change to hybrid systems, change in aero, proportions and wheel dimensions this season... for some reason, Red Bull, which also had a competitive car, was able to stay at the top, Mercedes doesn't.  

These changes are not necessarily to burden a certain team but to improve the racing series, e.g. to reduce the lap times or cornering speeds, the speeds on the straights or to improve overtaking possibilities and loss of aerodynamic effects when following another car. That some teams will suffer due to these changes are side effects, not necessarily the main reason.

So, after all, it is due to Mercedes´ difficulties that they are uncompetitive, while other stayed or even became competitive. Still, knowing their abilities and the fact that a lot of their current situation is due to the excessive "bouncing" movement of their car, I am fairly certain that they will significantly improve. On top of that, they will surely reserve development funds to improve the remaining components that are allowed to be worked on until September 1st.

 

 

In case you missed it, this is not about banning this banning that.

This is about reduced wind tunnel time and CFD time, which directly affects car development. The top team get the least amount of development time, the worse team gets the most. It is designed to bring the top team down and the worse team up. Bunching up the field. It started back in 2021, where as the 2020 Champion Mercedes already getting the least developmental time.

Read this up:

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.how-f1s-new-sliding-scale-aero-testing-rules-work-and-what-impact-they-will.pn0sG8N4A...

I think I can rest my case now. 

Whoopsy, sorry, you are wrong there. Mercedes has simply made the mistake with the chassis. 5% difference doesnt give almost 1 sec per lap. 

Whoopsy:

I think I can rest my case now. 

Yes, I am well aware of that but no… you can’t rest the case. This affects all leading teams to a significant extent and still Red Bull built a competitive car. If this year’s performance would be directly linked to amount of allowed development resources the grid would have to look significantly different.

I agree however, at least I assume you see it that way also, that this rule is somewhat idiotic as it punishes the effort leading teams have put into. Unlike BoP, which at least can have a function to adjust performance of very different vehicles, the rulebook in F1 is equal to begin with for all competitors.

kudryavchik:

Whoopsy, sorry, you are wrong there. Mercedes has simply made the mistake with the chassis. 5% difference doesnt give almost 1 sec per lap. 

Exactly.

It would be naive to think that less wind tunnel time especially with a new aero regime change would not dramatically impact development.  If not, why even have the regulation.   Just like the bottom team getting a first round pick in other sports… it’s to balance power. 

Ferdie:

kudryavchik:

Whoopsy, sorry, you are wrong there. Mercedes has simply made the mistake with the chassis. 5% difference doesnt give almost 1 sec per lap. 

Exactly.

You both underestimate how much development is available early. 

Of course it impacts, no doubt. The question of gap. Merc worked with their car 5% less. 0,1 sec? - possible. 1 sec - nope. More over merc has chosen quite radical and agressive approach. They have clearly known what they were doing. They were doing the chassis with the greatest df and they have done it. The result - car jumps as a crazy bull. Now they have to do something with aero, because they cant solve the issue on suspension side. Coil springs, nothing more. 

If there was the active suspension, merc would dominate from start. Their chassis from aero and layout point of view is a gem. But it doesnt work with their suspension

kudryavchik:

Of course it impacts, no doubt. The question of gap. Merc worked with their car 5% less. 0,1 sec? - possible. 1 sec - nope. More over merc has chosen quite radical and agressive approach. They have clearly known what they were doing. They were doing the chassis with the greatest df and they have done it. The result - car jumps as a crazy bull. Now they have to do something with aero, because they cant solve the issue on suspension side. Coil springs, nothing more. 

The bouncing is causing Mercedes to have to run the car higher than competitors. Therefore they have less downforce in corners since ground effects is where the grip largely comes from now.  They are trying to recapture some downforce by running bigger wing which then makes them slower in straights.   The bouncing and less down force gives the drivers less confidence to commit.   The gap from the above is way more than a tenth.   You saw the gap simply when Russel had more confidence in his setup in qualy versus Hamilton, way more that and tenth difference just in setup of the same car. 

kudryavchik:

If there was the active suspension, merc would dominate from start. Their chassis from aero and layout point of view is a gem. But it doesnt work with their suspension

I’m glad there are no active suspensions.  Make the drivers and teams work for it. 

thuggy:

kudryavchik:

Of course it impacts, no doubt. The question of gap. Merc worked with their car 5% less. 0,1 sec? - possible. 1 sec - nope. More over merc has chosen quite radical and agressive approach. They have clearly known what they were doing. They were doing the chassis with the greatest df and they have done it. The result - car jumps as a crazy bull. Now they have to do something with aero, because they cant solve the issue on suspension side. Coil springs, nothing more. 

The bouncing is causing Mercedes to have to run the car higher than competitors. Therefore they have less downforce in corners since ground effects is where the grip largely comes from now.  They are trying to recapture some downforce by running bigger wing which then makes them slower in straights.   The bouncing and less down force gives the drivers less confidence to commit.   The gap from the above is way more than a tenth.   You saw the gap simply when Russel had more confidence in his setup in qualy versus Hamilton, way more that and tenth difference just in setup of the same car. 

Simply because mercedes venturi tunnels are very efficient. 

On Ham - it is much more difficult case than the car, i compare the cars by the fastest pilot of the team. We dont know for certain why Ham failed the quali and race. I believe it is setup, but there could be also his style or his psychological condition. Its a human, we can only ask ourselves why he is slower than Russel.

I am against of simple suspension setups when there is ground effects. It is dangerous potentially. Even 919 evo was dangerous as it was porpoising on SPA like crazy, this car had more complex suspension with much more advanced chassis control. All these systems are now banned in f1. 

thuggy:

It would be naive to think that less wind tunnel time especially with a new aero regime change would not dramatically impact development.  If not, why even have the regulation.   Just like the bottom team getting a first round pick in other sports… it’s to balance power. 

I think it's a silly rule but I assume due to the budget cap this was the only solution. In the past, the teams received money from F1 depending on their championship results, the higher the more which naturally did not help back markers. Now, instead of equally spreading these payments they had to find a different solution... Still, why not keep the development resources equal to everybody? 

Nonetheless, for some reason Mercedes and McLaren has lost some of their competitiveness, while Red Bull and especially Ferrari were able to retain or even gain theirs. You need the ressources and be able to use them properly, otherwise Toyota and BMW would've had to be consecutive world champions when they were competing. 

Ferdie:

Whoopsy:

I think I can rest my case now. 

Yes, I am well aware of that but no… you can’t rest the case. This affects all leading teams to a significant extent and still Red Bull built a competitive car. If this year’s performance would be directly linked to amount of allowed development resources the grid would have to look significantly different.

I agree however, at least I assume you see it that way also, that this rule is somewhat idiotic as it punishes the effort leading teams have put into. Unlike BoP, which at least can have a function to adjust performance of very different vehicles, the rulebook in F1 is equal to begin with for all competitors.

You seeing things too superficial. 

When one has less time testing stuff, how and what being tested automatically becomes more important. For teams with more time, they can try a bunch of combinations and see which is better then focus on those. The opposite of that, in this case Mercedes, means they need to predict what could work first before testing, and if they choose wrong, there isn't a reset button to go back, they are stuck with what they picked as they would simply run out of hours to test.

In this case, Mercedes picked wrong to start off with. Their idea was out of the box, size zero side pod to minimize drag, but it just didn't work out. 

And no, I am not in agreement, I think the sliding scale for testing time is a good idea. Easy to implement and also doesn't get controversial like the BoP system in WEC. The scale is published and set for the year, it also get a reset mid season to re-rank the teams. Unlike the WEC stuff where weight added, restrictor size, fuel amount seems arbitrary and there isn't a set guideline and teams can sandbag to go around it. 

There had already been one rule changed since Mercedes first became the top dog, and they still came out on top. It would have been a miracle for them to come out on top even after another rule change. Some fans are against seeing Mercedes win year after year, they wanted to see someone else on top. This is one way to do it, and even Mercedes themselves sign off on it. 

It had always been the nature of F1 to have different team comes out on top after every rule change, Vettel got 4 in a row with Red Bull, Schumacher with his Ferrari, Hamilton and Mercedes is pretty much the exception as they lasted 2 sets of regulations. Not a walk in the park for Hamilton during the second set as Vettel in the Ferrari put up a great fight and then last year with Max in the Red Bull

From now till 2026, there doesn't seems to be a single team that will dominate, Red Bull looks strong, and so are the Ferraris. Leclerc and Sainz's turn to challenge for the title against Max. All is not lost either for the losing side. If they stayed close, losing the title this year means next year they get a slight boost and could fight back and come out on top. 

As it stands, Max is in great shape to win his second but Red Bull won't be in a position to win the Constructor, that will go to Ferrari. Which also means good news for Max as his team will have that little bit more time testing over the Ferraris, increasing his chance to win his 3rd. Unintended consequence of the sliding scale. But then again F1 had always been about the Constructor first, individual driver title is secondary. 

Whoopsy:

You seeing things too superficial. 

When one has less time testing stuff, how and what being tested automatically becomes more important. For teams with more time, they can try a bunch of combinations and see which is better then focus on those. The opposite of that, in this case Mercedes, means they need to predict what could work first before testing, and if they choose wrong, there isn't a reset button to go back, they are stuck with what they picked as they would simply run out of hours to test.

[...]

And no, I am not in agreement, I think the sliding scale for testing time is a good idea.

Well buddy, maybe I spend most of my day in automotive development and have a vague understanding how the processes work. Maybe. 

There are three things to differentiate here:

- development time: of course it will affect competitiveness, but not in a way that you loose 1 sec per lap as has happened this weekend and stated by Russell; furthermore, as said above, if that would be the case Red Bull would have to have a substantial disadvantage as well

- key employees: this is vital in my opinion and Mercedes has lost quite a few key players in their team in recent past

- basic layout vs. set up: I repeat myself but I am pretty sure that Mercedes will improve significantly once they have solved their issues; namely "bouncing" and "porpoising". Unlike smaller teams, they do have the manpower and knowledge to solve this. For me, the issue is rather the setup than the basic layout of the car

My issue with this "sliding scale" is, that it is one more variable that affects the sport. I personally think, that it is getting too complicated and the one thing making spectators excited is pure racing, which includes speed, sound and great competition. Anyways, that's material for another whole dis

In this environment with a reverse sliding scale based on 2021 outcomes, perhaps Mercedes should have played it safe instead of innovating with a design that requires much more development time.  This decision was exclusively made by Mercedes.  

No one dispute other issues. Think Red Bull alone poached 5 or 6 guys from the Mercedes engine team already.

There is a combination of 'things' that together will result in a fast car. How to find those? Trial and error. The more time one gets, the better chance of getting it right. Good guesses in the beginning also help to get a head start. 

Did Red Bull or Ferrari aced it? Not really, but their choices are working better than Mercedes' right now. It's as simple as that. They also get more time testing and development than Mercedes. 

It basically means Mercedes can't afford to pick wrong, others have more room for error and to correct them later on. 

Could they have picked the right thing from the get go? Possible. Do they still need to work on that? Absolutely. Perhaps more time testing will improve and show the full potential of their car. Or it could be their car's potential might be lower than the others. We will know at the end of the season. 

Nick's long error prone assessments miss the main point:  The drag from Hamilton's woke mask, and loss of focus on woke is costing him time.   Just kidding.

You’re a smart guy with business experience.  Why was it easy for Red Bull to poach the former. Mercedes experts?  If they were happy with that team they wouldn’t have left.  

Same reasons as to why people move in any business, moving for opportunity and money.    RedBull was building an operation in essentially same location so people did not have to relocate.  Offer a number two or three person the opportunity to be a number one somewhere else and they will likely go even if they were happy where they were.

Waiting for RB Porsche announcement :-) 

Whoopsy:

We will know at the end of the season. 

thuggy:

Same reasons as to why people move in any business, moving for opportunity and money.    RedBull was building an operation in essentially same location so people did not have to relocate.  Offer a number two or three person the opportunity to be a number one somewhere else and they will likely go even if they were happy where they were.

Therefore, it’s not a coordinated effort on the part of the FIA to disable Mercedes, as was alluded to by Whoopsy.  

CGX car nut:

thuggy:

Same reasons as to why people move in any business, moving for opportunity and money.    RedBull was building an operation in essentially same location so people did not have to relocate.  Offer a number two or three person the opportunity to be a number one somewhere else and they will likely go even if they were happy where they were.

Therefore, it’s not a coordinated effort on the part of the FIA to disable Mercedes, as was alluded to by Whoopsy.  

And I did not say that. You guys really need to stop putting words in my mouth. Why you all wanted to put on coloured goggles to read stuff🤦🏻‍♂️ It's not a secret who or what a favour, but that doesn't influence on how I write stuff. I write them as they are, not biased one way or another. 

All I said was the FIA neutering the top team and helping the worse teams. As it happened, Mercedes was the top team. It easily could have been Red Bull. And this year, might be Ferrari. 

And this is exactly why I am not writing post race analysis anymore this year.

Some people wanted to put a spin one way or another to everything. They cannot accept how things actually happened and unfold. I always believe in reporting anything and everything, that's called factual reporting. If someone does something wrong, it shows. If someone does something bad, it shows. There is nothing to 'spin'. 

--

Ferdie:

Whoopsy:

We will know at the end of the season. 

And I still don't think Mercedes can come back and win the title. By the mid point rebalancing they should be too far back.

CGX car nut:

thuggy:

Same reasons as to why people move in any business, moving for opportunity and money.    RedBull was building an operation in essentially same location so people did not have to relocate.  Offer a number two or three person the opportunity to be a number one somewhere else and they will likely go even if they were happy where they were.

Therefore, it’s not a coordinated effort on the part of the FIA to disable Mercedes, as was alluded to by Whoopsy.  

I don't think Whoopsy ever said that.

As a Hamilton fan, I hope you are wrong but fear you may be right.  But RedBull and Ferrari beating up on each other keeps the door open a little bit longer.

thuggy:

CGX car nut:

thuggy:

Same reasons as to why people move in any business, moving for opportunity and money.    RedBull was building an operation in essentially same location so people did not have to relocate.  Offer a number two or three person the opportunity to be a number one somewhere else and they will likely go even if they were happy where they were.

Therefore, it’s not a coordinated effort on the part of the FIA to disable Mercedes, as was alluded to by Whoopsy.  

I don't think Whoopsy ever said that.

He alluded to it in his statement yesterday on how Mercedes was being penalized for winning the constructors cup last year.  That’s where he droned on about the lack of aerodynamic work allowed to the team versus other teams. 

CGX car nut:

thuggy:

CGX car nut:

thuggy:

Same reasons as to why people move in any business, moving for opportunity and money.    RedBull was building an operation in essentially same location so people did not have to relocate.  Offer a number two or three person the opportunity to be a number one somewhere else and they will likely go even if they were happy where they were.

Therefore, it’s not a coordinated effort on the part of the FIA to disable Mercedes, as was alluded to by Whoopsy.  

I don't think Whoopsy ever said that.

He alluded to it in his statement yesterday on how Mercedes was being penalized for winning the constructors cup last year.  That’s where he droned on about the lack of aerodynamic work allowed to the team versus other teams. 

He was referring to the testing limitations NOT people. 

CGX car nut:

thuggy:

CGX car nut:

thuggy:

Same reasons as to why people move in any business, moving for opportunity and money.    RedBull was building an operation in essentially same location so people did not have to relocate.  Offer a number two or three person the opportunity to be a number one somewhere else and they will likely go even if they were happy where they were.

Therefore, it’s not a coordinated effort on the part of the FIA to disable Mercedes, as was alluded to by Whoopsy.  

I don't think Whoopsy ever said that.

He alluded to it in his statement yesterday on how Mercedes was being penalized for winning the constructors cup last year.  That’s where he droned on about the lack of aerodynamic work allowed to the team versus other teams. 

Here is the exact message.

Where did I say FIA penalizing Mercedes again? I said FIA neutering the champion and helping those behind is working.  

Only until the next sentence did I mention Mercedes isn't competitive at all. 

The rule weren't written to penalize Mercedes specifically. It isn't written as only Mercedes GET LESS testing time, only the first place team get the least test time. As it happens, Mercedes happens to be the champion for the last few years. Last year it could have been Red Bull that's the Champion and they could have been the one getting neutered. 

Like I said, stop twisting my words and put words in my mouth. Nothing I wrote implies the FIA is targeting Mercedes. FIA is only targeting the top team/teams in order to bunch up the field, which I support. 

Take off your coloured goggles and just read things as they are, stop trying to infuse different meanings into words.