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Apr 24, 2005 12:00:25 PM
- Ryan in SD
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Re: Autocar: BMW M6
So let me see: BMW needs 150(!!!) HP more than Porsche with it's 997 Carrera S to achieve the same Nordschleife track time? Congrats, BMW. 
The new M5 is a very fast car and I like it. But it is no sportscar. The M6 has almost the same weight, the same engine, the same drivetrain and a slightly different suspension setup incl. electronic control.
But I don't think this makes the M6 more than 5 seconds faster on the Nordschleife compared to the M5.
The new M5 did the Nordschleife in 8 min 13 sec, the 997 Carrera S with sport chassis option in 8 min 05 sec.
In Hockenheim, the 997 was even 2,5 sec. faster which means world on the Kleiner Kurs, a track which favours cars with a good suspension setup.
So yes, the M6 is a very nice addition to the sportscar world but I'm not impressed. And the truth is: most people are impressed with the power figure, a 5 at the beginning sounds great. This is the same strategy Mercedes AMG used for it's SL 55 AMG. Great straight line performance but more of a cruiser. The M6 is more sporty, no doubt about it but whoever expects a real sportscar, think again. The new M5 already showed what to expect: great straight line performance but when it comes to twists and turns, a 355 HP Porsche (and even a Boxster S with 280 HP) are faster. Of course the M5 is a limousine but the new M6 weights almost the same as I mentioned before.
The new M5 is a very fast car and I like it. But it is no sportscar. The M6 has almost the same weight, the same engine, the same drivetrain and a slightly different suspension setup incl. electronic control.
But I don't think this makes the M6 more than 5 seconds faster on the Nordschleife compared to the M5.
The new M5 did the Nordschleife in 8 min 13 sec, the 997 Carrera S with sport chassis option in 8 min 05 sec.
In Hockenheim, the 997 was even 2,5 sec. faster which means world on the Kleiner Kurs, a track which favours cars with a good suspension setup.
So yes, the M6 is a very nice addition to the sportscar world but I'm not impressed. And the truth is: most people are impressed with the power figure, a 5 at the beginning sounds great. This is the same strategy Mercedes AMG used for it's SL 55 AMG. Great straight line performance but more of a cruiser. The M6 is more sporty, no doubt about it but whoever expects a real sportscar, think again. The new M5 already showed what to expect: great straight line performance but when it comes to twists and turns, a 355 HP Porsche (and even a Boxster S with 280 HP) are faster. Of course the M5 is a limousine but the new M6 weights almost the same as I mentioned before.
Re: Autocar: BMW M6
Why compare the M5 to the Porsche 911 in a negative way ? Aren't they COMPLIMENTARY ? I'm getting a 997 Turbo AND a new M5.
Most people around here in the US see it as the "all around" sportiest of the E55/RS6/M5 super sports 4 dr sedan triumvirate available to the US customer who is interested only in German cars .
Who choses BETWEEN a 911 and an M5 as their ONLY car ?
Most 997 Turbo owners have a need for a sedan , too, you know , as the 911 is a third or fourth car in our stables .
Cherish the choices we have , not belittle them.
I don't get it .
( BTW, since M6 may now come with the OEM M-specific Pirelli P Zero Corsa tires as above , which prev came OEM on the M3 CSL, Challenge Stradale and GT3RS , which most acknowledge as one of the main reasons those models are much quicker around a track than their lessor brothers , why not believe an M6 ring time a few seconds faster than previous testings , as that alone would yield the greatest decrease in track times off the showroom floor )
Most people around here in the US see it as the "all around" sportiest of the E55/RS6/M5 super sports 4 dr sedan triumvirate available to the US customer who is interested only in German cars .
Who choses BETWEEN a 911 and an M5 as their ONLY car ?
Most 997 Turbo owners have a need for a sedan , too, you know , as the 911 is a third or fourth car in our stables .
Cherish the choices we have , not belittle them.
I don't get it .
( BTW, since M6 may now come with the OEM M-specific Pirelli P Zero Corsa tires as above , which prev came OEM on the M3 CSL, Challenge Stradale and GT3RS , which most acknowledge as one of the main reasons those models are much quicker around a track than their lessor brothers , why not believe an M6 ring time a few seconds faster than previous testings , as that alone would yield the greatest decrease in track times off the showroom floor )
Re: Autocar: BMW M6
You can't compare these cars in the track, for the M5 8:13 is really good... if you want a car for track, no one could beat the 911... but if you want to sacrifice even more there are even faster cars around the track, such as the radical.
Who cares what the Bentley GT track time around the Nordschleife is, its a GT. So is the M6.
Sports cars are good when you're in the mood, but for everyday life, GT's make more sense.
Who cares what the Bentley GT track time around the Nordschleife is, its a GT. So is the M6.
Sports cars are good when you're in the mood, but for everyday life, GT's make more sense.
Re: Autocar: BMW M6 ...Lap times arent everything.
So its a BMW heavyweight with a small gas tank,mediocre brakes and complex technology to disguise its mass.
The 6 series of the 80's looked like a Germanized Chevy Montecarlo and braked and handled like one.
The 8 series looked ok, was a dealer repair nightmare and had all the visceral feel of a electric Ford Thunderbird.
Why is BMW so pleased to make a GT car with such mediocre steering, brakes and endless complexity?? What sort of mechanical design theories do they adhere to? Don't they
ever learn anything except to add weight and software?
A GT car should at least have GT capabilities, such as fade free brakes for mountain passes and a big gas tank so as to not have to refuel many times on a long trip. The M6 has neither, so its merely a glamorous and hungry fast whale that needs to refuel often. Porsche at least nailed the GT category right when they built the 928 GTS.
Why is BMW still low on the GT learning curve after forty years? No matter how many cylinders, gears or electronic gizmos they add, its just the same nonsense every decade.
The 6 series of the 80's looked like a Germanized Chevy Montecarlo and braked and handled like one.
The 8 series looked ok, was a dealer repair nightmare and had all the visceral feel of a electric Ford Thunderbird.
Why is BMW so pleased to make a GT car with such mediocre steering, brakes and endless complexity?? What sort of mechanical design theories do they adhere to? Don't they
ever learn anything except to add weight and software?
A GT car should at least have GT capabilities, such as fade free brakes for mountain passes and a big gas tank so as to not have to refuel many times on a long trip. The M6 has neither, so its merely a glamorous and hungry fast whale that needs to refuel often. Porsche at least nailed the GT category right when they built the 928 GTS.
Why is BMW still low on the GT learning curve after forty years? No matter how many cylinders, gears or electronic gizmos they add, its just the same nonsense every decade.
Re: Autocar: BMW M6 ...Lap times arent everything.
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Porsche at least nailed the GT category right when they built the 928 GTS.
I tried so hard to like/buy the " flagship " 928 GT/GTS through it's many iterations over the years , but to me it always felt like driving a truck when compared to my concurrent 911s back then. I've got an oddball neighbor who keeps buying used 944s and 928s as he's into front engined Porsches even though he could afford a Carrera GT. Drove his " new " 928 GTS recently and it feels even more like a truck than I remembered. Yuck.
Re: Autocar: BMW M6 ...Lap times arent everything.
Quote:
MKW said:I tried so hard to like/buy the " flagship " 928 GT/GTS through it's many iterations over the years , but to me it always felt like driving a truck when compared to my concurrent 911s back then.
Agreed - but it's sad to note that the old heavy "truck" 928 (compared to its contemporary 911's) is now lighter than most 911's of today (especially the earlier 928's)...
Re: Autocar: BMW M6
Quote:
MKW said:
Why compare the M5 to the Porsche 911 in a negative way ? Aren't they COMPLIMENTARY ? I'm getting a 997 Turbo AND a new M5.
Most people around here in the US see it as the "all around" sportiest of the E55/RS6/M5 super sports 4 dr sedan triumvirate available to the US customer who is interested only in German cars .
Who choses BETWEEN a 911 and an M5 as their ONLY car ?
Most 997 Turbo owners have a need for a sedan , too, you know , as the 911 is a third or fourth car in our stables .
Cherish the choices we have , not belittle them.
I don't get it .
( BTW, since M6 may now come with the OEM M-specific Pirelli P Zero Corsa tires as above , which prev came OEM on the M3 CSL, Challenge Stradale and GT3RS , which most acknowledge as one of the main reasons those models are much quicker around a track than their lessor brothers , why not believe an M6 ring time a few seconds faster than previous testings , as that alone would yield the greatest decrease in track times off the showroom floor )
MKW, are you getting an early M5...as the official rennteam beta-tester? What's the latest timeline on US deliveries? Will be very interested to hear your feedback. Hope you're plugged-in w/a good SF BMW dealer for svc...know a few guys who left BMW fold as dealers seem to be more attuned to addressing time and quality constraints of typical 3-series buyer (now I understand why BMW always seems to price at a discount to Merc, despite the poor quality cloud over Merc). Let's hope the high-revving M5 engine doesn't suffer the same fate as the M3's.....they've had 3-4 yrs to figure out the M3, right? Who knows, maybe in a couple of yrs BMW will have guts to offer a competent $9K ceramic brakes option, so when motor actually runs, one has ability to stop car effectively as well
Re: Autocar: BMW M6 ...Lap times arent everything.
Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
MKW said:I tried so hard to like/buy the " flagship " 928 GT/GTS through it's many iterations over the years , but to me it always felt like driving a truck when compared to my concurrent 911s back then.
Agreed - but it's sad to note that the old heavy "truck" 928 (compared to its contemporary 911's) is now lighter than most 911's of today (especially the earlier 928's)...
Doesn't 997S only weigh about 3200lbs? 996GT3 is only about 3050 lbs, right? How much did earlier 928's weigh? I suspect modern chassis and tire technologies help create tremendous timing and "feel" advantages, despite some incremental weight over cars of yesteryear/decades....would be fun to compare N-ring times of some of the modern, alleged porkers vs the allegedly lighter, purer cars of the past.....
Re: Autocar: BMW M6 ...Lap times arent everything.
The 94-95 928 GTS weighed 3593 lbs,had 326hp, 0-60 in 5,2 sec and a top speed of 180mph. Those are factory figures.
I bet it would turn in very competitive lap times and skidpad numbers versus a new M6 by simply upgrading to 19" wheels and current state of the art tires. It has better weight distribution, brakes, a lower center of gravity and the rear suspension provides for a slight rear wheel steering effect.
I bet it would turn in very competitive lap times and skidpad numbers versus a new M6 by simply upgrading to 19" wheels and current state of the art tires. It has better weight distribution, brakes, a lower center of gravity and the rear suspension provides for a slight rear wheel steering effect.
Re: Autocar: BMW M6 ...Lap times arent everything.
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
The 94-95 928 GTS weighed 3593 lbs,had 326hp, 0-60 in 5,2 sec and a top speed of 180mph. Those are factory figures.
I bet it would turn in very competitive lap times and skidpad numbers versus a new M6 by simply upgrading to 19" wheels and current state of the art tires. It has better weight distribution, brakes, a lower center of gravity and the rear suspension provides for a slight rear wheel steering effect.
The " truckiness " of this car is from the feeling of driving a big car with it's numb steering feel , long hood and claustophobic sitting in a bathtub sensation( high sides and that dated 1970s massive wide rear center console that swept high into the dash.
Plus, I'm not into living in the past. Like Ferry said, the best Porsche( MBZ, BMW etc) is the newest Porsche ( MBZ,BMW etc) .
Re: Autocar: BMW M6
Quote:
VKSF said:
MKW, are you getting an early M5... Hope you're plugged-in w/a good SF BMW dealer for svc...know a few guys who left BMW fold as dealers seem to be more attuned to addressing time and quality constraints of typical 3-series buyer (now I understand why BMW always seems to price at a discount to Merc, despite the poor quality cloud over Merc). Let's hope the high-revving M5 engine doesn't suffer the same fate as the M3's.....they've had 3-4 yrs to figure out the M3, right? Who knows, maybe in a couple of yrs BMW will have guts to offer a competent $9K ceramic brakes option, so when motor actually runs, one has ability to stop car effectively as well
My 996 Turbo has been flat bedded 4 times and nearly caught fire one of those times . I'm number 2 at my dealer for the 997 Turbo , lol !
My M5 is MSRP max since I developed land and am considered a business neighbor - I hear they are charging market price for many on their list - yikes . If the M5 has teething problems, that's what a warranty is for and who with any sense would keep any modern car beyond orig or factory ext warranty ? .BMW/Porshe/MBZ are all walking distance from my new building - something my wife says I did on purpose. Having owned these brands for decades , it's GOOD to be next door, as all 3 break down all the time .
Re: Autocar: BMW M6
Quote:
MKW said:Quote:
VKSF said:
MKW, are you getting an early M5... Hope you're plugged-in w/a good SF BMW dealer for svc...know a few guys who left BMW fold as dealers seem to be more attuned to addressing time and quality constraints of typical 3-series buyer (now I understand why BMW always seems to price at a discount to Merc, despite the poor quality cloud over Merc). Let's hope the high-revving M5 engine doesn't suffer the same fate as the M3's.....they've had 3-4 yrs to figure out the M3, right? Who knows, maybe in a couple of yrs BMW will have guts to offer a competent $9K ceramic brakes option, so when motor actually runs, one has ability to stop car effectively as well
My 996 Turbo has been flat bedded 4 times and nearly caught fire one of those times . I'm number 2 at my dealer for the 997 Turbo , lol !
My M5 is MSRP max since I developed land and am considered a business neighbor - I hear they are charging market price for many on their list - yikes . If the M5 has teething problems, that's what a warranty is for and who with any sense would keep any modern car beyond orig or factory ext warranty ? .BMW/Porshe/MBZ are all walking distance from my new building - something my wife says I did on purpose. Having owned these brands for decades , it's GOOD to be next door, as all 3 break down all the time .
Glad you have a sense of humor about breakdowns!
Ferrys last car was a triple green Boxster tiptronic, even he realized he had inadvertantly built the ultimate German
AMC Pacer with the 928.
Apr 29, 2005 3:57:18 PM
- easy_rider911
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Reply to:
RC
Apr 29, 2005 4:19:16 PM
- MKW
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- Reply to: easy_rider911
Re: Autocar: BMW M6
The M6 should be compared with a CL 55, Bentley Continental GT- that sort of car , i.e., 4000 plus lb luxury GTs with higher HP , not a 997S which ,although getting more lux, is still a sports car . Might as well compare an M6 to a Ferrari 355 or 360 a Corvette , while they are at it .
I guess it's a grudging testament to the respect M cars have that mag editors keep doing this , like the 4000 lb M5 vs 3300 lb 997S comparos also . Imagine a serious , not flippant , front page comparo between a CL 55 vs a 997 S .
I guess it's a grudging testament to the respect M cars have that mag editors keep doing this , like the 4000 lb M5 vs 3300 lb 997S comparos also . Imagine a serious , not flippant , front page comparo between a CL 55 vs a 997 S .
Re: Autocar: BMW M6
Quote:
MKW said:
The M6 should be compared with a CL 55, Bentley Continental GT- that sort of car , i.e., 4000 plus lb luxury GTs with higher HP , not a 997S which ,although getting more lux, is still a sports car . Might as well compare an M6 to a Ferrari 355 or 360 a Corvette , while they are at it .
I guess it's a grudging testament to the respect M cars have that mag editors keep doing this , like the 4000 lb M5 vs 3300 lb 997S comparos also . Imagine a serious , not flippant , front page comparo between a CL 55 vs a 997 S .
M6 will prob price at $90Kish...so, though its weight class may be 55/612/DB9/ContGT-like, buyer demographics may be significantly different given the pricing gaps.....but mag publishers ultimately run a business, so they will likely compare and say whatever necessary to sell mags and please large-revenue advertisers....
Re: Autocar: BMW M6
Quote:
MKW said:Quote:
VKSF said:
MKW, are you getting an early M5... Hope you're plugged-in w/a good SF BMW dealer for svc...know a few guys who left BMW fold as dealers seem to be more attuned to addressing time and quality constraints of typical 3-series buyer (now I understand why BMW always seems to price at a discount to Merc, despite the poor quality cloud over Merc). Let's hope the high-revving M5 engine doesn't suffer the same fate as the M3's.....they've had 3-4 yrs to figure out the M3, right? Who knows, maybe in a couple of yrs BMW will have guts to offer a competent $9K ceramic brakes option, so when motor actually runs, one has ability to stop car effectively as well
My 996 Turbo has been flat bedded 4 times and nearly caught fire one of those times . I'm number 2 at my dealer for the 997 Turbo , lol !
My M5 is MSRP max since I developed land and am considered a business neighbor - I hear they are charging market price for many on their list - yikes . If the M5 has teething problems, that's what a warranty is for and who with any sense would keep any modern car beyond orig or factory ext warranty ? .BMW/Porshe/MBZ are all walking distance from my new building - something my wife says I did on purpose. Having owned these brands for decades , it's GOOD to be next door, as all 3 break down all the time .
Like your early-adopter approach
Beauty of getting early, hot cars at MSRP is that, even if car disappoints, one can flip the "barely broken-in, executive-driven" car at minimal/no cost to some oh-so-shrewd, impatient buyer, esp in a mkt like SF where the wait-lists and mkt premiums are often the greatest....
Re: Autocar: BMW M6
I guess my wife has forgotten that she swore she would never drive another Bimmer again after her 5 series in the early 90's left her stranded 3 times at the side of the road - twice on Stanford University grounds . But with MBZ and Porsche " reliabilty " as they are these days , she figures they are all just as bad .
Re: Autocar: BMW M6
Quote:
MKW said:
I guess my wife has forgotten that she swore she would never drive another Bimmer again after her 5 series in the early 90's left her stranded 3 times at the side of the road - twice on Stanford University grounds . But with MBZ and Porsche " reliabilty " as they are these days , she figures they are all just as bad .
To be fair, seems that all these brands go through their reliability cycles. Have a bunch of pals w/car AttnDeficitDisorder who only keep their new cars for 5K mi or so before moving onto next toys....latest anecdotal feedback from these high-frequency buyers is surprisingly that 997S/996TTS, F and 55/65 (yes, even Merc) are all fairly bulletproof....obviously, there's a lemon rate w/every brand, but my sense is that many of these cars are kind of binary....and lemons often start to show themselves fairly early...
BTW, may want to remind wife that there aren't many safer settings to be stranded by a car than Stanford's campus....OK, maybe West Atherton (esp near the MenloCC)...but just stay away from Redwood City, East Palo Alto, etc until car proves robust (and maybe even after that)....
Re: Autocar: BMW M6
Quote:
VKSF said:Quote:
MKW said:
BTW, may want to remind wife that there aren't many safer settings to be stranded by a car than Stanford's campus....OK, maybe West Atherton (esp near the MenloCC)...but just stay away from Redwood City, East Palo Alto, etc until car proves robust (and maybe even after that)....
Well, the third time was in East Palo Alto with a flat tire that popped on the Dumbarton Bridge - but by then she blamed it on BMW's choice of tire , ' cause she was so pi**ed with the " bad karma " of the car . That was in the days when EPA had the highest murder rate per capita in the US.
Apr 30, 2005 4:32:04 AM
- WBH
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- Reply to: easy_rider911
Re: Autocar: BMW M6
Quote:
easy_rider911 said:
RC, you should see this week's autocar article which compares the new M6 with the 997S. It's reassuring to read that the reviewers at Autocar much preferred the 997S for its superior handling, steering feel and braking.
Just read this article....amazing that BMW tried to sneak in special brake pads on test car....and reviewer still thought brakes were weak
.....clearly, BMW knows it can't engineer/buy brakes worth a damn....so, M6 sounds like a high-revving version of the SL55/CL55 for those lacking an extra $30Kish; like ugly cars; and don't like GT cars w/effective air cond sys....it took BMW 3 yrs post-SL55 intro to come up w/this belated, poor man's version? 
Re: Autocar: BMW M6
Quote:
MKW said:
That was in the days when EPA had the highest murder rate per capita in the US.
How did you mean that?
Were agents of the Environmental Protection Agency being murdered in disproportionate numbers, or were they doing the murdering?
OOPS!
Just noticed, EPA could also = East Palo Alto. 
You should have been more specific!
Re: Autocar: BMW M6
Quote:
The new M5 is a very fast car and I like it. But it is no sportscar.
Haha that's the exact debate I've been having with my colleague here at work for the past 15 minutes after he showed me a CAR article covering the M6 claiming it's a better sportscar than xyz.
I'm sure both the M5 and the new M6 are great cars, but neither of them is a sportscar, nor do they have to be. IMHO there's more to a sportscar than pure performance.. it has a certain kind of soul and fit. The M5/6s and SLs in this world, and the GTIs for that matter, are simply sporty sedans with more or less oomph and luxury depending on the price. They're a class of their own and a great fit for those who like them, or like to compliment their sportscar with a more cruiser like vehicle.
Me, I'm prone to either the pleasure or sportscar class as my daily driver, and that excludes the M series. ;-)
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