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Mar 29, 2003 4:26:27 PM
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Ron (Houston)
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Mar 30, 2003 3:46:09 PM
- Gianmaria Traversone
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Re: Which one to Buy???
Hi , I had the same question, and I went all the way to Geneva to see the three cars.
Defenetly the most appasionate of the three is the 360 CS. It is extreme, very sporty and extremely good looking. The GT3 I personally do not like the design of the 996 series , and also inside the cockpit you will find no difference from a Carrera 2.The performance is very interesting but still has the worst weight to power ratio of the three cars. The Lambo is very good looking but it bothers me a bit that is so Audish, even the key of the car is the same of a Audi A8. Plus it is brand new chassis and a brand new engine, I would be afraid that it will have a lot of recalls for the first and maybe second year.
So I decided on the CS. A proven Chassis , a proven engine ( Which has only a 25 hp increse, therefore not a stressed engine) and the car really looks and feels different than a 360 modena. It really looks like a a mini Enzo ( even the key is the same of the Enzo). And finally I believe that Ferrari holds the price better among the three cars. I just sold my 360 modena and I sold it for the same amount of what I payed for it, I believe that does not happens in a Porsche or a Lambo.
Defenetly the most appasionate of the three is the 360 CS. It is extreme, very sporty and extremely good looking. The GT3 I personally do not like the design of the 996 series , and also inside the cockpit you will find no difference from a Carrera 2.The performance is very interesting but still has the worst weight to power ratio of the three cars. The Lambo is very good looking but it bothers me a bit that is so Audish, even the key of the car is the same of a Audi A8. Plus it is brand new chassis and a brand new engine, I would be afraid that it will have a lot of recalls for the first and maybe second year.
So I decided on the CS. A proven Chassis , a proven engine ( Which has only a 25 hp increse, therefore not a stressed engine) and the car really looks and feels different than a 360 modena. It really looks like a a mini Enzo ( even the key is the same of the Enzo). And finally I believe that Ferrari holds the price better among the three cars. I just sold my 360 modena and I sold it for the same amount of what I payed for it, I believe that does not happens in a Porsche or a Lambo.
Re: Which one to Buy???
Tough,
Gianmaria is right about the value of the Ferrari but it's too hard core unless you're gonna track regularly
Same with GT3 although much easier to live with,
but I think I'd go for the Lambo, just because it's that Name, that desing, etc...
IMO, the Audi thing is a good thing, gives the car a quality label the previous Lambos didn't have.
And 500hp, that's a magic number
So there you go, a manual Gallardo, maybe I'd wait for the roadster version
Fanch.
Gianmaria is right about the value of the Ferrari but it's too hard core unless you're gonna track regularly
Same with GT3 although much easier to live with,
but I think I'd go for the Lambo, just because it's that Name, that desing, etc...
IMO, the Audi thing is a good thing, gives the car a quality label the previous Lambos didn't have.
And 500hp, that's a magic number
So there you go, a manual Gallardo, maybe I'd wait for the roadster version
Fanch.
Re: Which one to Buy???
Porsche is cheapest and surely a very good track car.
Problem: when the new 911 or at least a new GT3 arrives it will look outdated.
Ferrari is very special and with these modifications to the exterior far better looking than the standard Modena.
Problem: old engine with high maintainance costs.
Lamborghini is extraordinary and has lots of power.
Problem: it's too much Audi (in styling and technique).
Conclusion: I would go for the 360 CS or wait for the successor of the 360 Modena (which surely can compete with the Lamborghini in terms of power and styling).
Problem: when the new 911 or at least a new GT3 arrives it will look outdated.
Ferrari is very special and with these modifications to the exterior far better looking than the standard Modena.
Problem: old engine with high maintainance costs.
Lamborghini is extraordinary and has lots of power.
Problem: it's too much Audi (in styling and technique).
Conclusion: I would go for the 360 CS or wait for the successor of the 360 Modena (which surely can compete with the Lamborghini in terms of power and styling).
Re: Which one to Buy???
I don't get it!
What do you guys mean when you say it's TOO MUCH AUDI?
Describe the point please.
Unless there is a model I don't know about, from A2 to A8 incl TT, I can't see a model from the Audi range that could have inspired the Gallardo nor the Murci.
As for the interior, well, that can only be good concerning the finish isn't it? And I don't think it looks like an Audi inside too.
The 4X4 system has nothing to do with the Quattro Haldex but is a Viscous coupling similar to the Carrera 4.
You also say that when to new 997 will come out, the 996 will be outdated. Well, that's normal no?
How does that not affect the other models here?
I agree though, from the styling point of view, the CS is the best looking, I look forward to see it moving, a lowered 360 with that nice front spoiler, great, but I really think it's going to be too hard core for street use (As opposed to what its name suggest
Fanch.
PS: It will be REALLY interesting to see the times they post on the same track. I personnally have no idea, but I reckon it'd be between the GT3 and CS. The Gallardo is too "soft" compared to the other two in terms of track use.
What do you guys mean when you say it's TOO MUCH AUDI?
Describe the point please.
Unless there is a model I don't know about, from A2 to A8 incl TT, I can't see a model from the Audi range that could have inspired the Gallardo nor the Murci.
As for the interior, well, that can only be good concerning the finish isn't it? And I don't think it looks like an Audi inside too.
The 4X4 system has nothing to do with the Quattro Haldex but is a Viscous coupling similar to the Carrera 4.
You also say that when to new 997 will come out, the 996 will be outdated. Well, that's normal no?
How does that not affect the other models here?
I agree though, from the styling point of view, the CS is the best looking, I look forward to see it moving, a lowered 360 with that nice front spoiler, great, but I really think it's going to be too hard core for street use (As opposed to what its name suggest
Fanch.
PS: It will be REALLY interesting to see the times they post on the same track. I personnally have no idea, but I reckon it'd be between the GT3 and CS. The Gallardo is too "soft" compared to the other two in terms of track use.
Re: Which one to Buy???
Well, we should wait until we see some real testing of these cars by some car magazines. I still think that the Gallardo is a very promising sports car but until I don't see this car in person and until I don't read a test done by SPORT AUTO, I wouldn't rush into buying it.
The Lamborghini Murcielago suprised me very very much, on the track is outruns even the GT2 in Hockenheim...something which is really impressive for such a heavy car. If the Gallardo has only half the "talent" and "genes" of the Murcielago, the 500 HP and the low weight of the Gallardo should deliver highly impressive perfomance figures.
And regarding the Audi "thing": I don't care as long as the Gallardo is fast, beautiful and impressive. But I need some proof first.
The Lamborghini Murcielago suprised me very very much, on the track is outruns even the GT2 in Hockenheim...something which is really impressive for such a heavy car. If the Gallardo has only half the "talent" and "genes" of the Murcielago, the 500 HP and the low weight of the Gallardo should deliver highly impressive perfomance figures.
And regarding the Audi "thing": I don't care as long as the Gallardo is fast, beautiful and impressive. But I need some proof first.
Re: Which one to Buy???
Don't get me wrong, Fanch. I think the Gallardo is still a stunning car, no doubt a real supercar, if you like.
What i meant with "too much Audi" is the following:
1) the design, especially the rear, looks somewhat harsh, so rectangular, so cold, stylish and postmodern, not as fluent and organic as for example a Pininfarina Ferrari (different to explain...).
I personally prefer the old Gandini style or the Cala prototype of Giugiaro more than that Donkervolke lines.
Concerning styling, perhaps it would be better to say "not enough Italian styling" instead of "too much Audi".
2) the engine is developed by Audi and will be seen in future Audis. I don't know if I would like driving a supercar as the Gallardo, if I get passed by - let's say an new Audi Nuvolari (or a top model A8?), with not only the the same engine, but even a 100hp-plus thanks to two turbo chargers.
And if you speak about the interior finishing: according to some German magazines the interior build quality of the Murcielago must be worlds apart from Audi quality (and not for better but for worse).
When I say the 996 looks outdated when the 997 arrives, I think that is somehow different to the other models discussed here. Because of Porsche being so normal and familiar looking (don't get me wrong on this), with the same basic lines over decades and the one of the three that has most in common with an "ordinary" car, I think a model change leads to a very quick outdating of the old model.
It gets better, when a model becomes classical after a couple of years.
For example: take an "old" Ferrari, it doesn't matter if 308, 328, 348 or 355. They all still look fabulous even against the 360. Low, aggressive, simply different and special.
Then take the old Porsches: they look old against the 996, especially the 964 and even the 993 (what doesn't mean that I personally prefer the 993 styling compared to that of the 996 - and if you have a look at the first spy shots of the 997 Porsche obviously feels the same
).
What i meant with "too much Audi" is the following:
1) the design, especially the rear, looks somewhat harsh, so rectangular, so cold, stylish and postmodern, not as fluent and organic as for example a Pininfarina Ferrari (different to explain...).
I personally prefer the old Gandini style or the Cala prototype of Giugiaro more than that Donkervolke lines.
Concerning styling, perhaps it would be better to say "not enough Italian styling" instead of "too much Audi".
2) the engine is developed by Audi and will be seen in future Audis. I don't know if I would like driving a supercar as the Gallardo, if I get passed by - let's say an new Audi Nuvolari (or a top model A8?), with not only the the same engine, but even a 100hp-plus thanks to two turbo chargers.
And if you speak about the interior finishing: according to some German magazines the interior build quality of the Murcielago must be worlds apart from Audi quality (and not for better but for worse
).When I say the 996 looks outdated when the 997 arrives, I think that is somehow different to the other models discussed here. Because of Porsche being so normal and familiar looking (don't get me wrong on this), with the same basic lines over decades and the one of the three that has most in common with an "ordinary" car, I think a model change leads to a very quick outdating of the old model.
It gets better, when a model becomes classical after a couple of years.
For example: take an "old" Ferrari, it doesn't matter if 308, 328, 348 or 355. They all still look fabulous even against the 360. Low, aggressive, simply different and special.
Then take the old Porsches: they look old against the 996, especially the 964 and even the 993 (what doesn't mean that I personally prefer the 993 styling compared to that of the 996 - and if you have a look at the first spy shots of the 997 Porsche obviously feels the same
).Mar 31, 2003 10:37:14 PM
- Gianmaria Traversone
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- Reply to: Rossi
Re: Which one to Buy???
I agree with rossi.
About the "too much audish" I do not mean it as a lower quality, but I believe there is a matter of legend, mistic ( difficult to explain) about Italian exotics, that audi will never have. Is like having a Harly Davinson with top of the line Yamaha engine...Or a Rolex with top of the line Casio mechanism.
About the "too much audish" I do not mean it as a lower quality, but I believe there is a matter of legend, mistic ( difficult to explain) about Italian exotics, that audi will never have. Is like having a Harly Davinson with top of the line Yamaha engine...Or a Rolex with top of the line Casio mechanism.
Apr 1, 2003 8:15:06 AM
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Futch
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Re: Which one to Buy???
OK guys, I get the point, I must admit you're right about the rear of the Gallardo, and that's probably why it looks best in black bc you see it less
But you have a very good point about the engine, I'd be pissed off too to see it in the A8 or even the Nuvolari.
Fanch.
But you have a very good point about the engine, I'd be pissed off too to see it in the A8 or even the Nuvolari.
Fanch.
Apr 6, 2003 8:43:17 PM
- S' Cayenne
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Reply to:
Futch
Re: Which one to Buy???
I really liked the black Gallardo on the Geneva Auto Show. I still think it's an impressive and competitive car. But the Audi instruments are just a joke. Such an interesting car with a radio and aircon unit from the Audi A2/3/4 shelf is embarrasing to the driver's eye as it neither fits to the rest of the car's design nor to its exclusive image. While I understand the economic approach to save money to make big margins I consider cost saving attempts which become visual to the customer's eye like in this case simply a big mistake. Even one of Lambo's big guns became apologetic when I asked him if this design will be changed in the production model (it will not):
[url=http://www.autogalerie.org/Specials/Genf/2003_Jens_Wager/Genf_2003_164.jpg]Gallardo instrument panel I[/url]
[url=http://www.autogalerie.org/Specials/Genf/2003_Jens_Wager/Genf_2003_165.jpg]Gallardo instrument panel II[/url]
[url=http://www.autogalerie.org/Specials/Genf/2003_Jens_Wager/Genf_2003_164.jpg]Gallardo instrument panel I[/url]
[url=http://www.autogalerie.org/Specials/Genf/2003_Jens_Wager/Genf_2003_165.jpg]Gallardo instrument panel II[/url]
May 6, 2003 2:05:28 PM
- RR4
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Re: Which one to Buy???
The GT3.
The motor in the GT3R is basically the GT3 motor with an induction system that has a throttle control valve for each cylinder, rather than one for all six like the GT3 has.
The GT3R has 435hp with the ACO restrictors. The engine is capable of almost 500hp normally aspirated.
This motor which is based on the GT1 was developed for Lemans a 24hr race, a race where your car and motor is designed not just to go fast but to last.
Ferrari's forte is F1. A place where engines are designed to go fast for a 2 hr race, and to be rebuilt or even replaced after practice, qualifying and especially in between races.
That is the engines were never developed or blue printed to last beyond a race.
The GT3 will last longer than the Stradiale, maye in its current config. it may not be as fast as a Stradiale, but it could easily be done and done, I think, w/o any harm to the longevity of the motor.
The motor in the GT3R is basically the GT3 motor with an induction system that has a throttle control valve for each cylinder, rather than one for all six like the GT3 has.
The GT3R has 435hp with the ACO restrictors. The engine is capable of almost 500hp normally aspirated.
This motor which is based on the GT1 was developed for Lemans a 24hr race, a race where your car and motor is designed not just to go fast but to last.
Ferrari's forte is F1. A place where engines are designed to go fast for a 2 hr race, and to be rebuilt or even replaced after practice, qualifying and especially in between races.
That is the engines were never developed or blue printed to last beyond a race.
The GT3 will last longer than the Stradiale, maye in its current config. it may not be as fast as a Stradiale, but it could easily be done and done, I think, w/o any harm to the longevity of the motor.
May 8, 2003 7:45:03 PM
- floren
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Re: Which one to Buy???
yeah!
that's right!
today i saw in front of the ADLON, a very luxury and prestigious hotel in berlin the congierce parking a 360F1 spider.
one of the hotel 7er bmw limousines had to be removed in order to get enough space.
so the ferrari was fired up and filled the scenery with it's nervous grummling, the bmw slowed out of it's parking lot when a taxi rushed on the stage and filled the gap the bmw was supposed to drive into..
for more than 30 seconds none of the cars moved even a centimeter, till the ferraris thrilling horn made the taxi guy wake up.
the concierge seemed to be used to the car. he parked it with a phantastique precision and switched into first gear as he has never used another transmission.
so you see, even the stradale will be a suitable car in every day driving!
even for a weekend trip to berlin..
best, floren
that's right!
today i saw in front of the ADLON, a very luxury and prestigious hotel in berlin the congierce parking a 360F1 spider.
one of the hotel 7er bmw limousines had to be removed in order to get enough space.
so the ferrari was fired up and filled the scenery with it's nervous grummling, the bmw slowed out of it's parking lot when a taxi rushed on the stage and filled the gap the bmw was supposed to drive into..
for more than 30 seconds none of the cars moved even a centimeter, till the ferraris thrilling horn made the taxi guy wake up.
the concierge seemed to be used to the car. he parked it with a phantastique precision and switched into first gear as he has never used another transmission.
so you see, even the stradale will be a suitable car in every day driving!
even for a weekend trip to berlin..
best, floren
Re: Which one to Buy???
come on!
the horn sounds great. it's a quite high-freqenzy thing, as is the ignition starter.
i love that ignition's hysteric vibes a second before that glorious engine comes to life.
and every time you hear the horn sounding you can be sure it's a ferrari. even the sound of the horn is unigue!
one i don't like either is the klick-klackof the turning signal.
but i'm still in love with those cars.
best whishes, floren
the horn sounds great. it's a quite high-freqenzy thing, as is the ignition starter.
i love that ignition's hysteric vibes a second before that glorious engine comes to life.
and every time you hear the horn sounding you can be sure it's a ferrari. even the sound of the horn is unigue!
one i don't like either is the klick-klackof the turning signal.
but i'm still in love with those cars.
best whishes, floren
Re: Which one to Buy???
I agree with you Floren,
The great man (Enzo) always said:
"a car, it's before all an engine"
Well, he got that one all right. Especially the Enzo V12, it's a gem!!!
Still think the horn sounds cheap though. And don't you think it's badly positioned on the steering wheel too? I know it's a detail, but I've find myself accidently touching it whilst turning for example, or driving hard (Hands positionned 09:15 on the steering wheel)
But the main sound (engine) is pretty spot on
Fanch.
The great man (Enzo) always said:
"a car, it's before all an engine"
Well, he got that one all right. Especially the Enzo V12, it's a gem!!!
Still think the horn sounds cheap though. And don't you think it's badly positioned on the steering wheel too? I know it's a detail, but I've find myself accidently touching it whilst turning for example, or driving hard (Hands positionned 09:15 on the steering wheel)
But the main sound (engine) is pretty spot on
Fanch.
May 9, 2003 8:40:32 PM
- RR4
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Reply to:
Ron (Houston)
Re: Got some more of your pics here
Mmmm
Don't buyers of Lamborghini's, want and expect Lambos and NOT an Audi?
The Gallardo is a mess. Its an Audi, not a Lambo.
Audi is just "living off" the Lambo brand name. They'll destroy it in 5 years. The Murc and this Gallardo are painfully AUDI-ish, and not Italian. The designs while they may look great now, have no longevity to them, similar to the Miami Vice-ish Ferrari Testarossa.
Give it a few years and we'll have one of those, "What was I thinking, when we look at the designs coming out of Lambo".
Don't buyers of Lamborghini's, want and expect Lambos and NOT an Audi?
The Gallardo is a mess. Its an Audi, not a Lambo.
Audi is just "living off" the Lambo brand name. They'll destroy it in 5 years. The Murc and this Gallardo are painfully AUDI-ish, and not Italian. The designs while they may look great now, have no longevity to them, similar to the Miami Vice-ish Ferrari Testarossa.
Give it a few years and we'll have one of those, "What was I thinking, when we look at the designs coming out of Lambo".
A third-party perspective
Allow me to give an objective opinion of the matter, take it with a grain of salt, and then tell me how you feel. While the Lambo faithfuls seem to be complaining about the Audi influence, it seems to be beneficial in the long run, both financially and reliability wise (not that that this matters so much). Interiors, Audi parts, less rawness. These complaints are entirely valid, but here is a counterpoint...
Remember when Porsche released the 996, and the purists threw up their arms in disbelief? Slab sides, water cooled engines, and shared components with the Boxster....all terrible things. THEN they actually drove the car. All those complaints still remained, but they became minor quibbles. Now many of those purists believe the 996 is the best 911 yet.
Remember when Porsche released the 996, and the purists threw up their arms in disbelief? Slab sides, water cooled engines, and shared components with the Boxster....all terrible things. THEN they actually drove the car. All those complaints still remained, but they became minor quibbles. Now many of those purists believe the 996 is the best 911 yet.
I agree.
The 996 is the best 911. In temrs of performance and dynamics etc. Beauty, charm and similar characteristics are more subjective.
Just like Enzo used to say when asked which is his favourite Ferrari: The next one
It's an Excellent thing that Audi took over Lambo just as it is an excellent thing that Ford tool over AM. These brands would have died otherwise. Look at Lambo, it was owned by the Son of Suharto!!! Let's get some perspective.
Porsche's fate would have certainly been similar if they didn't go for a new strategy: Create a cheaper model.
Audi interior is not quite glamourous but at least it's a quality statement.
I mean, the Astons have Jaguar parts which in turn are Mondeo parts!!! I don't hear anyone complaining that!!!
And the Murci and Gallardo LOOK like proper sport cars. I think they look great. A bit more fantasy would have been nice on the inside I agree but that's fine with me.
And the Lambos are designed but a Begian Audi designer, so what?
Porsche are designed by an ex BMW designer and an asian guy (Pinky Lai)
BMW are designed by an Ex Fiat designer. (Bangle)
The Ferrari Enzo was designed by a Japanses bloke. (and the wind)
Astons are designed by an ex BMW designer... (Fisker)
After all these critiscms, I still don't see any trace of Audi in the design of the Murci and gallardo (exterior I mean of course)
And even so, I think Audis look quite good, especially the new A8. saw one yesterday on the street, beautiful!
Fanch.
Just like Enzo used to say when asked which is his favourite Ferrari: The next one
It's an Excellent thing that Audi took over Lambo just as it is an excellent thing that Ford tool over AM. These brands would have died otherwise. Look at Lambo, it was owned by the Son of Suharto!!! Let's get some perspective.
Porsche's fate would have certainly been similar if they didn't go for a new strategy: Create a cheaper model.
Audi interior is not quite glamourous but at least it's a quality statement.
I mean, the Astons have Jaguar parts which in turn are Mondeo parts!!! I don't hear anyone complaining that!!!
And the Murci and Gallardo LOOK like proper sport cars. I think they look great. A bit more fantasy would have been nice on the inside I agree but that's fine with me.
And the Lambos are designed but a Begian Audi designer, so what?
Porsche are designed by an ex BMW designer and an asian guy (Pinky Lai)
BMW are designed by an Ex Fiat designer. (Bangle)
The Ferrari Enzo was designed by a Japanses bloke. (and the wind
)Astons are designed by an ex BMW designer... (Fisker)
After all these critiscms, I still don't see any trace of Audi in the design of the Murci and gallardo (exterior I mean of course)
And even so, I think Audis look quite good, especially the new A8. saw one yesterday on the street, beautiful!
Fanch.
Re: I agree.
RR4,
I am sincerely not kidding!
Could you be more specific please when you say Audi influence?
And Luc Donkervolke has ONLY designed 2 Audis, the A2 and the R8. I prefer the second one!!!
I can see the similarities between the Murcielago and the Diablo and in turn, between the Gallardo and the Murcielago.
I can understand why people don't love them, they look a bit square, expecially from the back.
But I don't see anything that refers to Audis which to me are much more conventionnal sedan or very curvy coupes (TT).
The only thing that I see in common is the Air Con/ Stereo unit and frankly, that's no big deal.
Even the interior of the two Lambos is typical Lambo. Inclines Windscreen, High and large centre console, etc...
I'm being honest RR4, I would like to see how you support your opinion with proper examples.
Fanch.
I am sincerely not kidding!
Could you be more specific please when you say Audi influence?
And Luc Donkervolke has ONLY designed 2 Audis, the A2 and the R8. I prefer the second one!!!
I can see the similarities between the Murcielago and the Diablo and in turn, between the Gallardo and the Murcielago.
I can understand why people don't love them, they look a bit square, expecially from the back.
But I don't see anything that refers to Audis which to me are much more conventionnal sedan or very curvy coupes (TT).
The only thing that I see in common is the Air Con/ Stereo unit and frankly, that's no big deal.
Even the interior of the two Lambos is typical Lambo. Inclines Windscreen, High and large centre console, etc...
I'm being honest RR4, I would like to see how you support your opinion with proper examples.
Fanch.
Re: I agree.
Quote: "The Murc and the Gallardo and the entire AUDI line-up were designed by the same person!"
So what?
First, this is not true (see next post), and even if it was, it's still ok, designers have different ideas and they have talent, otherwise they wouldn't have the job they have.
I dislike Bangle's design but some people love it and I respect that.
The new Lambos are NOT Audis in the same way that:
- The 911 is not a Beetle (Ferdinand Porsche)
- The Z4 is not a Fiat Coupe (Bangle)
- The Aston V8Vantage is not a BMW Z8 (Fisker)
- The Peugeot 406 Coupe is not a 360 Modena (Pininfarina)
I could go on like this for a while
Fanch.
So what?
First, this is not true (see next post), and even if it was, it's still ok, designers have different ideas and they have talent, otherwise they wouldn't have the job they have.
I dislike Bangle's design but some people love it and I respect that.
The new Lambos are NOT Audis in the same way that:
- The 911 is not a Beetle (Ferdinand Porsche)
- The Z4 is not a Fiat Coupe (Bangle)
- The Aston V8Vantage is not a BMW Z8 (Fisker)
- The Peugeot 406 Coupe is not a 360 Modena (Pininfarina)
I could go on like this for a while
Fanch.
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