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Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Quote:
Lamzik said:
Little question - what is x73 ?
-20 mm sports suspension for the 996 Turbo and 4S.
I am not sure however if it comes with LSD, I think it is available but as a separate option.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Turbo X73 beats the 430 on the Nordschleife, a track where long straight means that the Turbo can use its huge shove!
The times however would extremely close IMHO.
That would only be on one lap though, I think a carbon brake equipped 430 would win over several laps.
Not sure though.
I think neither have been tested on the Nordschleife.
Whoever wins is not that important IMHO, two fantastic cars but very different in their nature.
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Quote:
Fanch said:
I wouldn't be surprised if the Turbo X73 beats the 430 on the Nordschleife,
I would. With a 70hp defecit and 400lbs. weight penalty, it's hard to imagine the porsche can be faster, even if lowered 20mm.
Quote:
Fanch said:
a track where long straight means that the Turbo can use its huge shove!
Again, 490>420.
Quote:
Fanch said:
The times however would extremely close IMHO.
That would only be on one lap though, I think a carbon brake equipped 430 would win over several laps.
Not sure though.
I think neither have been tested on the Nordschleife.
Whoever wins is not that important IMHO, two fantastic cars but very different in their nature.
I think the porsche will be beaten by 4-5 seconds on the first lap. But agree, gap would widen if 430 were equipped with CC brakes.
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Quote:
svtrader1 said:Quote:
Fanch said:
I wouldn't be surprised if the Turbo X73 beats the 430 on the Nordschleife,
I would. With a 70hp defecit and 400lbs. weight penalty, it's hard to imagine the porsche can be faster, even if lowered 20mm.Quote:
Fanch said:
a track where long straight means that the Turbo can use its huge shove!
Again, 490>420.Quote:
Fanch said:
The times however would extremely close IMHO.
That would only be on one lap though, I think a carbon brake equipped 430 would win over several laps.
Not sure though.
I think neither have been tested on the Nordschleife.
Whoever wins is not that important IMHO, two fantastic cars but very different in their nature.
I think the porsche will be beaten by 4-5 seconds on the first lap. But agree, gap would widen if 430 were equipped with CC brakes.
Wt delta is only about 250 lbs ('04 996TT Coupe is 3505 lbs(per P brochure), but 996TTS has PCCB...so is perhaps 3450 lbs); 430's "Italian-rounding" wt figs are roughly 3200 lbs...haven't yet seen more confirmatory wt figs. Don't forget 996TTS' torque beats 430 by roughly ?70 lb-ft. And P has mysteriously avoided any publication of a N-ring time for 996TTS w/X-73 and LSD.....perhaps to create an impressive N-ring time gap between '00 996TT w/o X-50, PCCB 2.0 and LSD vs 997TTS...gotta justify any price increases w/a notable performance gap for marketing purposes....
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Porsche NA website has curb weight at 3505lbs. for turbo S. Ferrari curb weight 3197lbs. With optional seats and CC brakes it would reduce by about 100lbs. 3100 vs.3500 still 400 difference.
Torque difference will be irrelevent at higher speed straight aways.
Torque difference will be irrelevent at higher speed straight aways.
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Porsche NA website has curb weight at 3505lbs. for turbo S. Ferrari curb weight 3197lbs. With optional seats and CC brakes it would reduce by about 100lbs. 3100 vs.3500 still 400 difference.
Torque difference will be irrelevent at higher speed straight aways.
You know,
I'd be the first one to agree with you, on paper, it's a clear win for the 430, but hitory had shown us that it's more than power to weight ratio.
Why? Honestly I don't know.
But look at the GT3, it's less powerful and heavier than a 360, so theoretically it should be slower.
But not only is it faster, it's much faster!
Go figure!
I know the engine being pushed back more gives it more traction exiting curves but still...
And I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the 997 Turbo will be less or as powerful as the 430, much much heavier (at least 150 kgs I would think) and yes have no doubt it will be faster.
I don't know how they do it!
Bear in mind, faster doesn't mean better!
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Quote:
Fanch said:Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Porsche NA website has curb weight at 3505lbs. for turbo S. Ferrari curb weight 3197lbs. With optional seats and CC brakes it would reduce by about 100lbs. 3100 vs.3500 still 400 difference.
Torque difference will be irrelevent at higher speed straight aways.
You know,
I'd be the first one to agree with you, on paper, it's a clear win for the 430, but hitory had shown us that it's more than power to weight ratio.
Why? Honestly I don't know.
But look at the GT3, it's less powerful and heavier than a 360, so theoretically it should be slower.
But not only is it faster, it's much faster!
Go figure!
I know the engine being pushed back more gives it more traction exiting curves but still...
And I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the 997 Turbo will be less or as powerful as the 430, much much heavier (at least 150 kgs I would think) and yes have no doubt it will be faster.
I don't know how they do it!
Bear in mind, faster doesn't mean better!
I agree with most of what you've said, but, I think it's very different this time, because, by all accounts, Ferrari has really hit the nail on the head with the F430. With a substantial power gain and virtually zero weight difference...the 430 is vastly superior to the 360.
Also, the 430 is put together more tightly inspiring greater confidence.
At the end of the day, I think the Tubbo's [sic]
weight will be the difference.
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Quote:
Crash said:
Agreed. Also, svtrader, don't forget that the 996TTS has the X50 kit, so the power deficit is much smaller (it actually has way more than 450 HP). My bet is on the TTS
The 997S ring time is 8:02min. with PASM. Being lowered 20mm resulted in a 3 second improvement. A standard 996 turbo does it in 7:56. Lowering it 20mm would most likey yield the same difference. Adding another 30hp would probably get you 2 more seconds. Plus, PCCB is another couple of seconds. And the result would be about 7:48-7:49 in my estimation.
I think the f430 will do it in 7:44-7:45.
Mar 25, 2005 8:06:00 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
The 7:56 time of the Turbo for SportAuto Supertest by Saurma, is misleading if we compare it to current 996TT's since it was done back in 2000, it is accepted that tires and the engine have evolved within the same car over the years. Now, if you add to that the X73 suspension (which is very very sporty, more than the -20mm of the 997S), PCCB's and the powerkit, who's power figure is very conservative, you will get a very different lap time for the 996TTS, with abigger gap than the difference of 3 seconds of the 997S PASM vs 997S -20mm which only changes suspensions and by a lesser degree at that.
Then if you consider that the F360 Challange Stradale which may be down on power vs the F430 but its MUCH lighter with sportier suspensions and setup, and R-compound tires! lapped the ring in the same 7:56 lap time, and under the same driver for the SportAuto Supertests in 2004, then you can conclude that the 996TTS upgraded with X50 powerkit, brakes and suspensions will improve much more upon the 7:56 of the first year 996TT, compared to the F430 over the 7:56 of the F360 Challenge Stradale if at all.
Therefore you will agree that the lap time at nurburgring of the 997TTS by the above data will be clearly better than the F430 (and F360CS, 7:56).
If the F430 can match the Stradale at the ring it will be quite an acomplishment, but thats first year 996TT lap times we are talking about, the 996TTS is out of reach for them. The funny thing is, the 996Turbo its an outgoing model, the 997Turbo is due to arrive shortly, what then?
Then if you consider that the F360 Challange Stradale which may be down on power vs the F430 but its MUCH lighter with sportier suspensions and setup, and R-compound tires! lapped the ring in the same 7:56 lap time, and under the same driver for the SportAuto Supertests in 2004, then you can conclude that the 996TTS upgraded with X50 powerkit, brakes and suspensions will improve much more upon the 7:56 of the first year 996TT, compared to the F430 over the 7:56 of the F360 Challenge Stradale if at all.
Therefore you will agree that the lap time at nurburgring of the 997TTS by the above data will be clearly better than the F430 (and F360CS, 7:56).
If the F430 can match the Stradale at the ring it will be quite an acomplishment, but thats first year 996TT lap times we are talking about, the 996TTS is out of reach for them. The funny thing is, the 996Turbo its an outgoing model, the 997Turbo is due to arrive shortly, what then?
Mar 25, 2005 8:48:05 PM
- svtrader1
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Carlos,
According to another poster.The 430 is faster than or equal to the 360CS at Fiorano, even though the 430 was equipped with street tires.
Given there are more straights at the 'ring...the 430 would no doubt eat up the CS. Therefore, I maintain my prediction.
According to another poster.The 430 is faster than or equal to the 360CS at Fiorano, even though the 430 was equipped with street tires.
Given there are more straights at the 'ring...the 430 would no doubt eat up the CS. Therefore, I maintain my prediction.
Mar 25, 2005 10:46:59 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
According to another poster.The 430 is faster than or equal to the 360CS at Fiorano, even though the 430 was equipped with street tires.
Given there are more straights at the 'ring...the 430 would no doubt eat up the CS. Therefore, I maintain my prediction.
In the ring I believe its the other way around, the 65HP advantage of the F430 is diluted by the extra 374lbs of excess weight vs the Stradale yielding basically the same power to weight ratio (3.00Kg/HP vs 2.96 kg/HP) but with the handling and braking advantage of the much lighter weight. So the F430 doens't have much of an advantage considering the F360CS has R-compound tires which by themselves account to at least 5 seconds on a track as long as the ring.
Now even if the F430 could bend the rules of physics and match the F360SC at the ring or even slightly improve upon it, do you think that a Powerkitted, PCCB'ed, X73'ed 996TT that already does the 7:56 in its stock form 5 years ago could not improve upon that 7:56 lap time even further that what the F430 could improve over the 7:56 lap time of the F360SC if if the F430 can at all?
Mar 26, 2005 2:48:10 AM
- svtrader1
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
In the ring I believe its the other way around, the 65HP advantage of the F430 is diluted by the extra 374lbs of excess weight vs the Stradale yielding basically the same power to weight ratio (3.00Kg/HP vs 2.96 kg/HP) but with the handling and braking advantage of the much lighter weight. So the F430 doens't have much of an advantage considering the F360CS has R-compound tires which by themselves account to at least 5 seconds on a track as long as the ring.
When you're comparing apple to apple or in this case 430 to CS, you have to remember the f430 has more than just the hp advantage, it also has a substantial torque advantage, too. When exiting a turn onto the straight the 430's extra low end grunt would definitely help push it much faster than a CS.
With regards to handling, I'm not sure what kind of advantage the CS might have over the 430. If the performance of the 430 on a short track, like Fiorano(where handling is key), is any indication, then I'm reluctant to believe a CS handles much better.
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Now even if the F430 could bend the rules of physics and match the F360SC at the ring or even slightly improve upon it, do you think that a Powerkitted, PCCB'ed, X73'ed 996TT that already does the 7:56 in its stock form 5 years ago could not improve upon that 7:56 lap time even further that what the F430 could improve over the 7:56 lap time of the F360SC if if the F430 can at all?
I've explained my opinion simply and fairly logically on the performance figures of the turbo to turbo S. And, I think the performance gap between the 430 and the CS will be greater than the performance gap between the turbo and the turbo S. Hopefully, we'll get to find out soon.
Mar 26, 2005 10:22:07 AM
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Carlos from Spain
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we will have to wait till the 997TT.
Mar 27, 2005 4:28:04 AM
- Bitko
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Guys, I started this topic in another forum, which svtrader and I decided to bring over here to get resolved. Its either something I misread or the figment of my imagination that TTS(with x73) is a better performer than the F430. But nevertheless I am really looking forward to getting the answer, hopefully soon they will be test and compared by SportAuto.
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Bitko, I've heard or read it somewhere myself, and as the owner of a Turbo S, I'd love to believe it. Still, Ferrari seems, by initial reports, to really have produced a great car in the F430. Whatever the outcome would be, I still love my car and I'm happy for Ferrari's success. In the end, the competition results in better cars for all of us.
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Quote:
Bitko said:
Anybody know any information on a comparison between these two cars. I heard it somewhere that the Turbo S(with x73) has beaten F430 at Nurburgring North Circuit, is it true?
I wouldn't be surprised at all. From 0-100 mph, the 996 TTS is already a fraction of a second faster than the F430 and X73 isn't only great, it is almost a perfect setup for the 996 Turbo. Yes, it is possible but I have no confirmation that this happened. But of course I can't know everything, right?!
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Quote:
RC said:Quote:
Bitko said:
Anybody know any information on a comparison between these two cars. I heard it somewhere that the Turbo S(with x73) has beaten F430 at Nurburgring North Circuit, is it true?
I wouldn't be surprised at all. From 0-100 mph, the 996 TTS is already a fraction of a second faster than the F430 and X73 isn't only great, it is almost a perfect setup for the 996 Turbo. Yes, it is possible but I have no confirmation that this happened. But of course I can't know everything, right?!
The 996 tt s is faster to 100 MPH then the 430?? What tests are you comparing too? Car and Driver has the 430 at 7.9 seconds and Road and Track has the 430 at 8 seconds. Then the same mags have the stock 996tt between 9.2 and 9.6 second to 100 MPH. I didn't see any numbers from them on the 996ttS but the times for the GT2 were both slower then the 430.Don't get me wrong...the 996tt is a great car (the 996ttS even better) but it is not quicker then the new 430 in a straight line!
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Quote:
strawman said:Quote:
RC said:Quote:
Bitko said:
Anybody know any information on a comparison between these two cars. I heard it somewhere that the Turbo S(with x73) has beaten F430 at Nurburgring North Circuit, is it true?
I wouldn't be surprised at all. From 0-100 mph, the 996 TTS is already a fraction of a second faster than the F430 and X73 isn't only great, it is almost a perfect setup for the 996 Turbo. Yes, it is possible but I have no confirmation that this happened. But of course I can't know everything, right?!
The 996 tt s is faster to 100 MPH then the 430?? What tests are you comparing too? Car and Driver has the 430 at 7.9 seconds and Road and Track has the 430 at 8 seconds. Then the same mags have the stock 996tt between 9.2 and 9.6 second to 100 MPH. I didn't see any numbers from them on the 996ttS but the times for the GT2 were both slower then the 430.Don't get me wrong...the 996tt is a great car (the 996ttS even better) but it is not quicker then the new 430 in a straight line!
The 996TT seems to have gained horsepower over the years, even though the declared power output remained the same. Remember the test where an X50 beat the Murcielago in the standing mile comparison? I wouldn't be surprised if the TTS actually WAS faster than the F430.
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Quote:
Crash said:
The 996TT seems to have gained horsepower over the years, even though the declared power output remained the same. Remember the test where an X50 beat the Murcielago in the standing mile comparison? I wouldn't be surprised if the TTS actually WAS faster than the F430.
You mention about the TT gaining power over the year due to changes. This makes sense because it's a lot of money to recertify the hp changes but do you know of any specific engine changes that were made over the years? Have you seen any dyno graphs showing this? I know that the X50 hp's underrated but haven't heard anyting about the base TT. I'm curious because I'll be in the market soon for one and am debating on what model year to get.
thanks,
Scott
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Quote:
Bitko said:
Anybody know any information on a comparison between these two cars. I heard it somewhere that the Turbo S(with x73) has beaten F430 at Nurburgring North Circuit, is it true?
This is TEST data obtained by AUTO Zeitung, a german car magazine which has friendly connections to Porsche:
Test track handling test
F430: 1:36,9 min.
Turbo S: 1:38,5 min.
The F430 wins.
Slalom 18m
F430: 68,0 kph
Turbo S: 66,1 kph
The F430 wins.
Performance figures
0-100 kph: F430 (3,8 sec.) - Turbo S (4,1 sec.)
0-160 kph: F430 (8,3 sec.) - Turbo S (8,5 sec.)
0-200 kph: F430 (12,2 sec.) - Turbo S (13,1 sec.)
Top Speed: F430 (316 kph) - Turbo S (307 kph)
The F430 wins.
Can't say much about the Nordschleife, I don't have any "confirmed" data. But if I'd have to make a personal bet, I think that this time, the F430 would win.
Ferrari did a great job, Kudos to them. I hope Porsche starts to wake up BEFORE they launch the 997 Turbo.
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Quote:
RC said:Quote:
Bitko said:
Anybody know any information on a comparison between these two cars. I heard it somewhere that the Turbo S(with x73) has beaten F430 at Nurburgring North Circuit, is it true?
This is TEST data obtained by AUTO Zeitung, a german car magazine which has friendly connections to Porsche:
Test track handling test
F430: 1:36,9 min.
Turbo S: 1:38,5 min.
The F430 wins.
Slalom 18m
F430: 68,0 kph
Turbo S: 66,1 kph
The F430 wins.
Performance figures
0-100 kph: F430 (3,8 sec.) - Turbo S (4,1 sec.)
0-160 kph: F430 (8,3 sec.) - Turbo S (8,5 sec.)
0-200 kph: F430 (12,2 sec.) - Turbo S (13,1 sec.)
Top Speed: F430 (316 kph) - Turbo S (307 kph)
The F430 wins.
Can't say much about the Nordschleife, I don't have any "confirmed" data. But if I'd have to make a personal bet, I think that this time, the F430 would win.
Ferrari did a great job, Kudos to them. I hope Porsche starts to wake up BEFORE they launch the 997 Turbo.
I guess the TTS tested by AutoZeitung was *not* equipped with X73???
However, I am not 100% sure of this as in the summary note ("Fazit") they state that the sport suspension installed on the tested car was the reason for the slower than expected track times. Any opinions on that?
Apr 10, 2005 9:38:38 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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MKSGR
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
I was under the impression the 996TTS has the X73 sport suspension standard, but now that you mention it I remeber it doesn't!!
The Turbo & Turbo S has a sport suspension standard, the equivalent to the milder M30 on the C4S, but not the X73... big difference, and helps to explain the 1.5sec difference in lap times and may be what they are reffering to.
The Turbo & Turbo S has a sport suspension standard, the equivalent to the milder M30 on the C4S, but not the X73... big difference, and helps to explain the 1.5sec difference in lap times
and may be what they are reffering to.
Apr 12, 2005 7:01:59 PM
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MKSGR
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Carlos from Spain
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
I was under the impression the 996TTS has the X73 sport suspension standard, but now that you mention it I remeber it doesn't!!
The Turbo & Turbo S has a sport suspension standard, the equivalent to the milder M30 on the C4S, but not the X73... big difference, and helps to explain the 1.5sec difference in lap times
Further news: Apparently, a further test, in AMS this time, states a 0-200 time of only 13 secs for the F430 (which would be the same as for the TTS)
Re: Turbo S (with x73) Vs. F430
Quote:
MKSGR said:Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
I was under the impression the 996TTS has the X73 sport suspension standard, but now that you mention it I remeber it doesn't!!
The Turbo & Turbo S has a sport suspension standard, the equivalent to the milder M30 on the C4S, but not the X73... big difference, and helps to explain the 1.5sec difference in lap times
Further news: Apparently, a further test, in AMS this time, states a 0-200 time of only 13 secs for the F430 (which would be the same as for the TTS)
Different test, different day. C&D, R&T and Quattroruote all have 0-160km/h at about 8 seconds and 0-200km/h around or just above 12.
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