Crown

Thanks.  I’m starting to like the CT and ST styles more and more.

Wonderbar:

Thanks.  I’m starting to like the CT and ST styles more and more.

The CT is the way to go. Best looking EV IMHO. 

bluelines:

Congrats! 

Love my Taycan Turbo CT. The power. Insane. The traction. Physics defying. The looks. Mean. The only thing missing is the exhaust sound  

Only complaint is the HUD which failed after the last software update. Apparently a common issue, lots of owners reported this on another forum, which the dealer can fix without having to replace anything.

I got a charger installed at home now and it works like a charm. 

A full review and photos later in spring 

Congrats! What is the "fuel" cost per km in CH if you charge at home?

One thing that will bother me when we switch to EVs is the weight. Moving around in a 2.4 ton vehicle won't be fun.

"fuel" cost per km is absolutely meaningless. 

Cost per full 'tank' should be the metric to use. 

EV range is like gasoline range, it varies depending on how one drives, person A and person B can and will get completely different results as everyone has their unique driving style, heavy or light on throttle, heavy on brakes or light on brakes. Heavy traffic or no traffic. And whether one relies on lift off regen braking or not. Or where one drives, flat straight roads? Or up and down mountain passes. Oh, and ambient temperature also plays a big role in range figures. 

My girlfriend and I already have very different consumption figures going from home to the same place on the exact same roads, be it a gasoline car or EV. 

As for the 'weight' issue. Literally it is a non issue. My 918 was widely considered a pig because of it's weight on paper as compared to the other 2 of it's era. Doesn't show when they are actually driven. Suspension tuning plays a much bigger role than most think on controlling weight, or make weight disappeared. A Taycan weight a bit more than a Tesla, yet it is the better handling car and is better feel car. Care to bring up the weight issue again?

The only time weight matters is one has to lug around all those heavy giant batteries because chargers still aren't as numerous as gas stations. Once the infrastructure catch up, batteries can be made smaller and thus less weight to be carried around. If there are fast chargers every 50km and can top up the car in 5 mins or less, do you think you need to lug around a big heavy battery that's sized for say 400km range? 

Nick, you need to have calculated your recent avg fuel cost per km so you can estimate how much every additional km will cost you. This depends on the vehicle's consumption (that also depends on the terain) but also on the cost that your electricity provider charges you. Currently electricity costs are up massively.

Vehicles are machines we drive for transportation. They have some operating parameters and they need to be fuel efficient othewise it doesn't make sense what 's going on (switching to EVs, climate change etc.etc.). Weight should show when you drive over uneven surface or when you let off the gas or taking a hairpin or a tight turn. After few years the effect of weight will show on tires and suspension components. Fast charging will kill the batteries. It is not only the cost but it is bad for the environment to throw away batteries every 4-5 years when with slow charging you can use them for 10 years for example.

Personally, I see a lot of negatives on EVs especially on cars like the new i4 M50. It is still early days for these products.

FYI after 35k miles my battery has lost less than 2% of its charge capacity.  Brakes are at 90% and I am still with about 40% tread on Michelin pilot sports even though I blast away from every stop constantly. Constantly. Service costs are about a gallon of windshield washer fluid which I expertly installed. I’m guessing my ‘fuel’ costs at roughly 2 cents per mile if I average in supercharging which is expensive vs home charging.  So around $700 in fuel. Performance  has been improved twice since new with over the air updates - speed and range.   The other significant updates to functionality are too many to count. 
No issues, rattles or suspension problems and still an absolute pleasure to own and use. I don’t see a problem with this car lasting decades or a million miles at this rate.  The ownership experience is second to none, which just about every tesla owner agrees with.  I suspect other EV owners are seeing much the same thing minus the dealership experience, OTA updates and resale value. 

There is definitely an EV in my near future.  They are improving rapidly, and will continue to do so regarding range, weight and handling. But I will say that a remaining concern is the effect of cold weather on the range. Where I live, the winters can be fairly cold and long. Range and battery life truly suffer in cold conditions.

Wonderbar:

There is definitely an EV in my near future.  They are improving rapidly, and will continue to do so regarding range, weight and handling. But I will say that a remaining concern is the effect of cold weather on the range. Where I live, the winters can be fairly cold and long. Range and battery life truly suffer in cold conditions.

they suffer even more on the heat, humidity and warm weather.

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

the-missile:

Wonderbar:

There is definitely an EV in my near future.  They are improving rapidly, and will continue to do so regarding range, weight and handling. But I will say that a remaining concern is the effect of cold weather on the range. Where I live, the winters can be fairly cold and long. Range and battery life truly suffer in cold conditions.

they suffer even more on the heat, humidity and warm weather.

 

I find cold weather is more of a range issue. Just my personal observation.  Tesla seems to miss projected range at very high speeds (+85) but if are on a long road trip the charging network makes up for some of that 

wantone:

Nick, you need to have calculated your recent avg fuel cost per km so you can estimate how much every additional km will cost you. This depends on the vehicle's consumption (that also depends on the terain) but also on the cost that your electricity provider charges you. Currently electricity costs are up massively.

Vehicles are machines we drive for transportation. They have some operating parameters and they need to be fuel efficient othewise it doesn't make sense what 's going on (switching to EVs, climate change etc.etc.). Weight should show when you drive over uneven surface or when you let off the gas or taking a hairpin or a tight turn. After few years the effect of weight will show on tires and suspension components. Fast charging will kill the batteries. It is not only the cost but it is bad for the environment to throw away batteries every 4-5 years when with slow charging you can use them for 10 years for example.

Personally, I see a lot of negatives on EVs especially on cars like the new i4 M50. It is still early days for these products.

 

 

You don't get it do you?

Range, as display on the car, is just a calculated estimate using past data, not unlike how people people predict the stock market using historic charts. It's just a GUESS. Not just on EVs, but also gasoline cars.

Unless one adhere to a rigid route every day that doesn't deviate. 

I don't. I could be jumping in the car and just go a couple km down the block to 7-11 and back, or I could be taking a mountain road to Whistler and back the next day. Or I could be heading into downtown in stop and go traffic all day or I could be heading out to the valley and drive on flat highways for 10s of km. Any one of those scenarios will have wildly different consumption figures. One just can't calculate accurately how much range a 'tank' goes. 

My electricity cost is CAD$0.12 per kW, depending on when I decided to charge the car, I could be filling in from 50kW to 90kW at the wall for a full charge. So that's $6-$10.8. 

90kW is pretty much the max I have ever put in, think I was down to 3% charge or something that time. 

And that 'full' charge will range from going less than 300km to over 420km. 

Do you want to base your 'cost per km' metric on $10.8 to go less than 300km? Or base it off the car going well over 420km? Or pick a arbitrary number somewhere in between? How's 301km? Or 369.4km? For someone in Colorado, they might use 420 on the dot. Personally I like the number 356.

You see where the math goes and where the problem is?

Pointless.

And back to the weight part. You have never driven a Taycan yet have you? It's magic. On uneven surface, it matches a Panamera, subjectively it's actually better. And it's definitely better than the much lighter GT2RS. Some thinks the weight must affect braking. Nope. I believe it stops even quicker than the Panamera even when Panamera has bigger brakes. And the Panamera stops quicker already than a lot of sports cars. Cornering? Nope, it wins also, with the low Cg, it just turns. No drama. 

And that bit about wear and tear? Of course something has to give in order to perform magic. Tires. But tires had always been consumables no matter what car. 

Current EVs are in their infancy, technology improves quickly. They get leapfrogged. They are disposable items, just like your iPhone. Do you buy an iPhone and planned on keeping it and using it for 10 years? Heck, do you keep your laptop and baby it's battery so you can use it for 10 years? 4-5 years sure. My last MacBook lasted 4 years too, even with a dumb lithium battery, as EVs have smart ones with microchip monitoring and conditioning, and all car makers are warrantying their batteries for like 7-8 years. 

Nick, agree with you on almost everything you’ve said. But regarding weight, or at least the feeling of weight, there’s quite a difference between driving a 911 on a racetrack and driving a Taycan.  Spent considerable time on track in both last summer, and just never felt comfortable in the Taycan (CarreraC4S and Taycan 4S). I admit I never timed the laps. but the feeling was definitely different, and I attribute it to the weight differential.

Comments welcomed..

Of course there will be a difference. Even a GT3 will feel different to a 911 turbo S on track at the limit, or close to it. Physics always wins, tuning and computerized controls can only do so much. it's also night an day when comparing a GT3 vs it's race version, the Cup car. 

But at normal speed and even during spirited street driving, the difference is quite small. Mostly not even worth mentioning. Who drives more than 6-7/10 on street roads? I admit I do at times, even touching 9/10, but only on very familiar roads, and if I planned on doing that, I am not taking out the Cayenne or the Panamera or the Taycan, I grab a 911. Which basically turned weight into a moot point. 

Proper tool for the proper job.

👍👍

Whoopsy:

wantone:

Nick, you need to have calculated your recent avg fuel cost per km so you can estimate how much every additional km will cost you. This depends on the vehicle's consumption (that also depends on the terain) but also on the cost that your electricity provider charges you. Currently electricity costs are up massively.

You don't get it do you?

Sorry, the only one that "doesn't get it" is you. And why the hostility in the first place?

Running cost, at least in my neighborhood, is calculated as (fuel in liters/100km) x (price/liter). For EVs, that would be (kWh/100km) x (price/kWh). Who cares what it costs you to fill up your fuel tank/battery if you have a different car than me?

The original question was, how much it costs in Switzerland to fill up the car. As you probably know, fuel as well as electricity is more expensive in Europe than in North America. If your price per kWh is correct, Switzerland is currently 2,5 times more expensive than Canada, Germany even four to five times as expensive. 

I can't tell you precise figures but a few weeks ago, I did some calculations and compared the "consumption" of a Taycan Turbo S with the consumption of my Trackhawk and how much a full "fuel" tank costs me and I ended up with a factor of 3--4x BETTER for the Taycan Turbo S. Keep in mind that my average consumption in the Trackhawk is 21 liters / 100 km (26 l at max for me) and the one in the Taycan Turbo S around 40 kWh (42 kWh at max for me).

To summon it up: An EV is more cost effective than a fuel operated car by AT LEAST the factor 2-3x, usually more like 3-4 or even more.

Only exception is for example my son's BMW 320d xDrive (G20), a Diesel mild hybrid with 190 hp. His best consumption was around 3.8 liters / 100 km with an average of around 6.7 liters. It is difficult to beat this one but EVs are still more cost effective by the factor 2 or so.

When I drive in a more relaxed way, most EVs I tried have a consumption of around 20-26 kWh.

Never got them under 20 kWh but I guess I'm not the type of guy to drive in a "fuel efficient" way.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), BMW Z4 M40i (2022), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

Ferdie:

Whoopsy:

wantone:

Nick, you need to have calculated your recent avg fuel cost per km so you can estimate how much every additional km will cost you. This depends on the vehicle's consumption (that also depends on the terain) but also on the cost that your electricity provider charges you. Currently electricity costs are up massively.

You don't get it do you?

Sorry, the only one that "doesn't get it" is you. And why the hostility in the first place?

Running cost, at least in my neighborhood, is calculated as (fuel in liters/100km) x (price/liter). For EVs, that would be (kWh/100km) x (price/kWh). Who cares what it costs you to fill up your fuel tank/battery if you have a different car than me?

The original question was, how much it costs in Switzerland to fill up the car. As you probably know, fuel as well as electricity is more expensive in Europe than in North America. If your price per kWh is correct, Switzerland is currently 2,5 times more expensive than Canada, Germany even four to five times as expensive. 

 

That's the thing, cost per km varies a lot depending on where one drives, even within one country. Someone in Texas will have a lower consumption per mile than say someone in Colorado just because one place is hilly and higher up and the other is a flat piece of ground. Someone in Maine will have a difference cost than Arizona as in Maine the climate is much colder and thus heaters and stuff will be on more. 

Comparing cost per km is pointless as everyone live in different places and drives differently. A Heavy foot guy will have higher cost than a light footed guy, even in the same car. 

My current new car, the hybrid Jeep Wrangler. It just gotten past 2000km. with 1300 of those on electric. And I am still on my 2nd tank of gas. How should one 'calculate' the cost per km there? Using the gas tank? Or using the electric side? The car charges itself too, I can run the engine to charge the battery from empty to full, that means it's a gasoline cost and not a from the wall cost. For a full charge, I have done as low as 28km, all the way to 40km, and even that is misleading as the car turn on and off the engine by itself for a few moments. Literally there is no way to put a cost per km figure there.🤷🏻‍♂️

The only known constant is cost per litre for gasoline and cost per kW. It's a 60ish litre tank so normal fill up is ~60 litre @CAD1.80 for current price. It also got  a 17.3kW so each full charge will take ~15kW or so @CAD$0.12. 

Anyone got some advanced math skills to calculate the per km running cost? 

The only way I can think of would be at the end of life, I tally up all the gasoline bills, all the electric charge bills, add those up then divided by the total km used. Oh, also add in the service bills and consumables, tires, washer fluid, etc. But that will be after the fact number. 

--

Geez, you guys lost me a long time ago. I’ll just say that, at my age, I’m more concerned about my mileage than about my vehicles’.  I plan on filling up my fun tank as fast and as often as I can—to Hell with cost per mile calculations.

Amen.

Not sure why someone would want to solely focus on a metric that can vary from 'tank' to 'tank' by 10%, 20%, 30% or even 40%. Literally it's a pointless exercise.

I am not meticulous, or OCD enough, to record down every day how many km I drove down to the 1/10km, and also record kW charged after and divide them to find that cost per km even day and then compare the results against others. 

Heck, when the car is plugged in, do the extra electricity counts if I remote warm the car first?

All I know is, right now a full charge in the Taycan will last longer than a full charge in the e-Tron, and they both have similar sized batteries. That's deep enough comparison. 

Oh wait, in perfect condition the e-Tron lasted longer than the Taycan when I really stressed the car. 

Oops. There goes the perfect cost comparison. 

Wonderbar:

Geez, you guys lost me a long time ago. I’ll just say that, at my age, I’m more concerned about my mileage than about my vehicles’.  I plan on filling up my fun tank as fast and as often as I can—to Hell with cost per mile calculations.

This is the best post in this thread.  Happy Motoring 

Tim

2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S;  2019 Speedster;  2021 Roma
 

Wonderbar:

Geez, you guys lost me a long time ago. I’ll just say that, at my age, I’m more concerned about my mileage than about my vehicles’.  I plan on filling up my fun tank as fast and as often as I can—to Hell with cost per mile calculations.

My son just broke his own record in his BMW 320d xDrive (G20), 2.9 liters / 100 km, driving 100 kph constantly on the Autobahn for over 40 km. He turned off A/C and ambient lighting, etc. , just so he can see how low he can get his consumption.

It probably has to do with the fact that he drove 16000(!) km over the past 4 months and I don't give him money for fuel anymore.  He is obsessed with driving but he has his final school exams this year, so I keep him broke, so he cannot drive around too much. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), BMW Z4 M40i (2022), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

Enmanuel:

well, that's very pink 

And now the very purple interior  with gold trims.

You know what, I sort of like the the interior purple! I'm happy you went for it, it can't all be safe plays. If it were me I'd love to see the purple in a black car, I think that combo would be smashing. 

Very nice interior, I already tyred of black ones :)

Very up to date!  Nice

Love it!

997.2 4S / BMW 745e / Donkervoort GT 

saw it live as well - super cool 

Have you been popping LSD lately ?   Nice to see colors 

Whoopsy:

Amen.

Not sure why someone would want to solely focus on a metric that can vary from 'tank' to 'tank' by 10%, 20%, 30% or even 40%. Literally it's a pointless exercise.

I am not meticulous, or OCD enough, to record down every day how many km I drove down to the 1/10km, and also record kW charged after and divide them to find that cost per km even day and then compare the results against others. 

Heck, when the car is plugged in, do the extra electricity counts if I remote warm the car first?

All I know is, right now a full charge in the Taycan will last longer than a full charge in the e-Tron, and they both have similar sized batteries. That's deep enough comparison. 

Oh wait, in perfect condition the e-Tron lasted longer than the Taycan when I really stressed the car. 

Oops. There goes the perfect cost comparison. 

 

If you sum up your total electicity and/or gas cost for each vehicle for the next 12 months (so you include seasonality and account for diffs between winter and summer) separating the consumption factor and the cost of fuel and electricity factors then you can estimate the cost of each incremental km you put on a given car.

I usually I do it once for a car so I know how much a potential next trip will cost me.

Most people care about fuel consumption especially at the present times with expensive gas and also electricity prices spike. It is also a challenge for engineers to build fuel efficient cars.

Gnil:

Have you been popping LSD lately ?   Nice to see colors 

I finally discovered the world isn't just black and white or various shades of grey 

Out of the last 10 cars I have bought and incoming, only 2 is black, 3 is white, one silver, one gold, one is blue and one is purple and one is pink......

With some consider gold is part of the yellow hue, and pink in the red family, I have now at least one car in all the rainbow colours, plus black and white and all the grey in beween. 

wantone:

Whoopsy:

Amen.

Not sure why someone would want to solely focus on a metric that can vary from 'tank' to 'tank' by 10%, 20%, 30% or even 40%. Literally it's a pointless exercise.

I am not meticulous, or OCD enough, to record down every day how many km I drove down to the 1/10km, and also record kW charged after and divide them to find that cost per km even day and then compare the results against others. 

Heck, when the car is plugged in, do the extra electricity counts if I remote warm the car first?

All I know is, right now a full charge in the Taycan will last longer than a full charge in the e-Tron, and they both have similar sized batteries. That's deep enough comparison. 

Oh wait, in perfect condition the e-Tron lasted longer than the Taycan when I really stressed the car. 

Oops. There goes the perfect cost comparison. 

 

If you sum up your total electicity and/or gas cost for each vehicle for the next 12 months (so you include seasonality and account for diffs between winter and summer) separating the consumption factor and the cost of fuel and electricity factors then you can estimate the cost of each incremental km you put on a given car.

I usually I do it once for a car so I know how much a potential next trip will cost me.

Most people care about fuel consumption especially at the present times with expensive gas and also electricity prices spike. It is also a challenge for engineers to build fuel efficient cars.

 

Who has time to record up all those? Heck even the electricity used for charging isn't an exact number, the EVSE still draws something if a car is plugged in with a full '100%' charge as I don't go outside and unplug the car when it's 'full'. Remote start pre-warming the car also uses electricity. Should those be counted? A car can also be parked at the driveway for weeks at a time while plugged in drawing electricity but not being used, want to count that as 'running cost'?

Honestly, running cost for a car is the very last thing on my list. I probably worried about tire replacement cost than running cost per km driven. What happened for the last 12 months have no correlation to my running cost for the next 12 months. I could be driving less with that one car, or more, or go to difference places with different road and weather conditions. Between all the cars, filling up a tank ranges from 50 litres to 80-90 litres, and they can go from barely touching 300km a tank to almost 900km a tank. Electricity usage will range from 14kW to over 90kW for a full tank.

On more than one occasion I didn't buy a single litre of gasoline for a whole month, and at the other extreme I once filled up with over 600 litres of gasoline in one day. (sudden price war between gas stations so I went out and fill up all my cars)

Electricity usage for charging also ranged from a couple 'tanks' so like 180kW to over 1000kW a month. 

Maybe I might hire a PA just to keep track of all those numbers if I am curious, but nah.

Gas currently cost CAD$1.80 for 87 octane, electricity cost CAD$0.12 per kW. Running a EV is cheaper than running a gas car. That's enough knowledge for 'running cost'.