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    LeMans Basics

    I've never watched a Le Mans race, but I know it's considered by many to be one of the best and most exciting categories. There's been a lot of talk about what's going on this year, and after the 2021 F1 season I want to get a bit more motorsport into my life, as a spectator at least. So I wanted to hear from you guys, what should someone with virtually no knowledge of this category know to start getting into it and heading into the 2022 season? 


    Re: LeMans Basics

    Where’s the eating popcorn emoticon?  Looking forward to what Spyderidol and Porker have to say.  Excellent thread to open.  Love sports car / prototype racing.


    Re: LeMans Basics

    Welcome Emma!!!

    Let’s start with some very basic principles/recommendations. We can then get into the more complicated stuff as this thread gets longer (hopefully).

    General Principals:

    1. There is more than one race going on at the same time. Yes, this may sound confusing, but its really not. Each class will have its own race within the main race. Each class will have its class winner, but that winner will also classify in the overall race position. Example: the class winner for GT-Pro will be classified as 1st in class (obviously) but may be classified as 15th or 16th overall (depending on how many cars from other classes finish ahead of him). Note: For the “lower classes” (LMP2/3 and GT classes) the class win is more important (to them) than the overall win. However, if someone from the lower classes happens to score a high overall position (say due to attrition in the upper classes), they all party like its Xmas, get very drunk and go home laughing.
    2. There are/were 4 classes at Le Mans. They are as follows:
    3. LMP1 (Le Mans Prototype 1) This is the top class and from which an overall winner is likely to emerge. This class is aimed at Factory efforts and also some very professional Teams
    4. LMP2 (Le Mans Prototype 2) This is the 2nd level of prototype class. Designed for "private" teams to be able to participate in prototype racing .
    5. GT-Pro (Grand Touring -Professional) This is the the top class for GT cars but with professional drivers/Teams. (Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, Corvette, etc). These cars are "based" on road going cars.
    6. GT-AM (Grand Touring -Armature) This class has the same "type" of cars as the GT-Pro, but they must be 1 year old (last year's model). This is done to make it affordable for non-professional teams to compete.
    7. Note: These are last years classes, and all this will change in 22 and 23. We can discuss the details of those changes later.
    8.  Endurance racing is very strategic. Think of it this way: F1 is a strategic game of drafts (strategies are based on lap X); Endurance racing is like a complicated game of chess. (Strategies are based on laps (laps per stint) and hours. (More of this as we get deeper into the thread).
    9. Endurance racing is really a Team sport. There are 2 , 3 or 4 (or more drivers) per car, plus all the mechanical and technical team. Drivers must compromise between themselves with their personal preferences in car setup. This is challenging and that’s why driver pairings are very important. Long races (12 and 24 hour) have 3 or 4 drivers per car (there is no legal limit), and short races (1000 km and 6 hour) usually have 2 or 3. If on one side the more drivers you have the less work it is for each driver (so better concentration and freshness), on the other side the more compromise is needed for each driving style. This can often result in a slower car. The sweet spot seems to reside with 2/3 driver pairings.

    In the interest of keeping this post short(ish) l will end here.

    I'm not sure how much you already know, so I may have just have written down a bunch of worthless nonsense.

    I look forward to you feedback , so that we can develop this thread in a direction that is useful to you and other that are interested in getting started.


    Re: LeMans Basics

    If you want to navigate in le mans well, you have to understand the basics like classes,  rules and rules evolution. In Le Mans, unlike F1 there are several classes and their development through the history was not linear. 

    Info about current classes, incl hypercar (lmh and lmdh) are easy to find


    Re: LeMans Basics

    Thanks Spyderidol, your post was not useless as I did not know any of this. You mentioned different race lengths, I was under the impression it was just one race. Or is there a calendar that adds up like in F1? Also are the races then ended by a time limit or by a number of laps? 
     

    @kudryavchik: Yes I could just google all of this and read a bunch of articles, but i thought it would be more enjoyable, and more interesting, to get info from real people who’s opinions I already read every day on other subjects. 


    Re: LeMans Basics

    Enmanuel:

    Thanks Spyderidol, your post was not useless as I did not know any of this. You mentioned different race lengths, I was under the impression it was just one race. Or is there a calendar that adds up like in F1? Also are the races then ended by a time limit or by a number of laps? 

    There are two major championships. They are the WEC (World Endurance Championship) with the following races in 2022:

    1. 1000 miles of Sebring  (USA) (March 16th)
    2. 6 Hours of Spa - Francochamp (Belgium) 
    3. 24Hours Le Mans - (France)
    4. 6 Hours of Monza - (Italy)
    5. 6 Hours of Fuji - (Japan)
    6. 8 Hours of Bahrain - (Bahrain)

    The second Championship is IMSA Sportscar Championship (all races held in North America)

    1. 24 Hour Daytona (Jan 27-30)
    2. 12 Hour Sebring (Mar 16-19)
    3. 100 minutes Long Beach (Apr8-9) The shortest of them all. Also - street circuit.
    4.  2H 40 Minutes of Monterey (Apr29- May 1)
    5. 2H 40 Minutes of Mid-Ohio (May 13-15)
    6. 100 minutes Detroit  - Belle Isle (June 3-4)
    7. 6 Hours of the Glen (June 23-26)
    8. 2H 40 Minutes Canadian Motorsport Park (July 1 -3)
    9. 2H 40 Minutes Lime rock (July15-16)
    10. 2H 40 Minutes Road America (Aug5-7)
    11. Virginia International Raceway (duration unknown) (Aug26-28)
    12. 10 Hours Petit Le Mans (Sept 28-Oct 1)

    Note that IMSA rules and classes are different to those of the WEC. As of 2023 that will change. Cars will be eligible to race in both championship. This is why Porsche has just launched its LMDh  (La Mans- Daytona hybrid) Prototype.

    Finally, yes the races add up like in F1.

    P.S. There is one other very special endurance race: 24 Hours of Nurburgring  - No Prototypes allowed and only GT3 and lower ranking cars (we can discuss this later)


    Re: LeMans Basics

    Final Note: IMSA is a Sportscar Championship with a few  very famous endurance races mixed in .


    Re: LeMans Basics

    Hmm, what about watching the classic McQueen movie, Le Mans?


    Re: LeMans Basics

    996FourEss:

    Hmm, what about watching the classic McQueen movie, Le Mans?

    Oh I have, also loved Ford v Ferrari. But I've just never sat down to watch an endurance race or learned anything about the category over the years. 


    Re: LeMans Basics

    Ok Enmanuel, agree) So, if you are interested I'll join there, my fav race.

    So 24 hours Le Mans is not the category or champ, it is the race that is organized historically by ACO and, in different years the part of sportscar championship under the FIA (but there were also the periods when it was the separate race and wasn't included in any champ).

    The idea of 24 hours of Le Mans initially was to race the cars, expensive ones, but those the buyer is able to buy. So it was like the marketing tool for manufacturers to show the quality and reliability of the cars they produce. Race on Sunday, sell on Monday. So, historically, sportscars bear (or beared for a long time) some key requirements. The cars must have the lights, have 2 seats and, till mid 70's - have a capacity for a spare wheel (it was formal approach, in reality there were fake wheels to save the weight). So, in 20,30,40 and early 50's there were the grand prix cars for sprint races - monoposto with open wheel (except W196R for Monza and Dijon and pre war formula libre rekordwagens), which later became F1 and 2 seat closed wheel sportcars. 

    Later on, from mid 50's sportscars, of course with the help of giant budgets from Jaguar and Mercedes, started to transform into prototypes - sportscars formally, but in reality pure race cars that had no omologation (production based sibling). Mercedes 300 SLR and Jag type C  can be called as first Le Mans pure prototypes. Later on Ferrari has joined in building prototypes, the cars mostly had nothing in common with the production cars. Usually used modified F1 engines with higher capacity and lower revs (so nothing close to production).  To fight with the growing speeds, the FIA has separated the leading class of sportscars (we dont talk about the pure production cars which were always the part of sportscar racing, we talk about win pretenders, top tier). There were the 3 liter prototypes and sportscars which had to pass the omologation (but no engine capacity limit). So, the best example of this case Ford GT40 which had 7 and 4,9 liter V8 and 3 liter Ferraris 312P, 330P and so on. Ford GT40, being formally the production car, was in fact the pure race car as a 3 liter prototype. It was always the question in Le Mans which car can be considered pure race car and which is production based)) - all depends how you read the rules and are you ready to invest heavily to build 50 or 25 pure race cars (for omologation reasons). In late 60's Ford could spend. Simply imagine building 50 race cars that are 2-3 times more expensive than comtemporary F1 machinery :-)

    Later on FIA has introduced new regs. These were group 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 cars and F1. Group 1-4 production based cars, Gr 5 omologated race cars with 5 liter engines, group 6 3 liter protos (no omologation required), Group 7 - Formula libre - the only requirement - 2 seats and 4 wheels))

    The top category of Le Mans and sportscar champ consisted of the cars like Porsche 917 and Ferrari 512 (both group 5 - formally production cars, because of omologation, but in reality pure race machinery) and cars like Ferrari 312P and Alfa 33 (gr6 protos with basically 3 liter F1 engines and porsche 908/03 fr6 cars that was used by factory to fight for win on twisty tracks - very successful). Group 5 proved to be much faster (also faster than F1 despite higher weight) and was eliminated by 1972, gr 6 continued its way up to 1974. Group 7 never raced Le Mans, these were the hill climbers from late 60's weighting 380-450 kilo and Can Am monsters - like 917/30, or mclaren M20. However, in 1970 Porsche and Ferrari raced in can am with gr5 cars. Porsche - sometimes successfully

    In 1975-1976  group 5 has changed, it became the silouette class (aka porsche 935 - racecar but with serial car elements - f.e. production central body section). gr 6 remained as prototype (see porsche 936). Speeds between them were close, but the difference was distinct. If previously you could build more powerful car, but you had to omologate it, now you had to have production based parts for the formally lower class.

    After all this mess with groups, FIA has introduced by 1981 3 sportscar groups (not 7 like previously). Group A - production based cars, Group B - you know, i am sure)) and group C - sportprototypes without omologation, the only production based part - engine block (not head, only crankcase). The only performance limitation - certain amount of fuel that can be used during the race distance. Like late 60-early 70's -the golden age of sportscar racing. Great variety of engines, from porsche 2,6-3,2 liter high boost turbocharged B6 up to 7 liter atmo Jags. There were also C2 class for small protos - cosworth or small production based engined cars.

    Starting to compete with the F1 in terms of popularity, by 1991 under the pressure from Bernie, the high class was separated once again. Group C was separated to C1 - 750 kg 3,5 F1 engined protos and highly ballasted, previously 850 and now 950-1000 kg old school C2 protos with free engine capacity (but as previously mentioned production based crankcase). you see historical spiral with Gr5 and Gr6 from 70's, yes?:-) Old C2 philosophy cars prooved to be faster and more reliable, so they were totally eliminated by 1992. In 1993 because almost all competitors went to F1 (that was Bernie plan) Group C died. In parallel IMSA (american sibling of FIA sportscar champ also raced group C cars, but the were a bit different). No fuel restrictions and higher downforce cars (up to 4,5 tons of DF in early 90s at the speed of 200 mph)

    Later on there were some private protos (not very tech advanced and based on old constructions) and GT1 cars that started to fight for win - real production cars, like Porsche 911GT1, Mclaren F1, Ferrari F40 GT. By 1998 GT1 cars stopped to require omologation so they became the prototypes, but formally GT1 cars. By 1999 it became LMGTP - Le Mans GT Prototypes (example Mercedes CLR and previously GT1, now LMGTP Toyota TS020). Closed cockpit cars, look like serial, but pure prototypes and open cockpit cars - LMP - BMW v12 LMR. In 2000 once again - new regs. LMP900 - high tier protos wighting 900 kg (AUDI R8, private BMW V12 LMR, Front ford engined Panoz LMP1), small LMP675 (675 kg LMP2 cars - like Lola GM), GT1 - now purely production supercars like ferrari 550 and GT2 - Ferrari 360 and 911

    In 2006 it became LMP1, LMP2, GT1 and GT2. LMP1 - Audi R10, Peugeot 908. LMP2 - Porsche RS Spyder (now 750 kg). In Imsa due to balance LMP2 was even faster in twisty tracks.

    Later on, you possibly know - LMP1 H, LMP1 (non hybrid), LMP2 (now cost capped gibson engined cars), GT Pro and  Gt Am. Those LMP1 were tech avant garde cars, potentially faster than F1, higher technology cars (once again history spiral with Gr5-Gr7 cars). Due to inability of ACO to provide the ROI required for such high tech the new Hypercar class was introduced (much cheaper version of LMP1H with production based e-machines and closer to production engines)

    So we are now here. Hypercar class is separated into LMH (FIA cars) and LMDH (IMSA cars). Both are limited to 500 kw (670HP) and lift drag coeff -4 to1. Power is constant, with or without e machine. When e machine works the ICE decreases the fuel consumption and loses the power.  What is the difference?

    LMH e machine is located at front. LMDH e machine is located on the rear. LMH can activate it only after 120 kph, LMDH any time. LMH chassis is own built, LMDH chassis must be built by 1 of 4 omologated manufacturers that built cost capped LMP2 cars (Oreca, multimatic, dallara or Ligier). Both versions of Hypercar will race against each other in FIA champ , In america only LMDH.

    So, sorry for grammar, but I tried, very briefly, to put you through the sportscar history to the point where we are now. Sportscar history is much more difficult than F1 and very non linear, thats why additional reading will help you.


    Re: LeMans Basics

    This is all very interesing--great thread!  Thanks for all the contributions!


    Re: LeMans Basics

    Some fundamental resources, that will be healthy to read

    http://www.mulsannescorner.com/

    https://www.racingsportscars.com/

    http://www.wsrp.cz/

    http://lemansprototypes.over-blog.it/

    https://porschecarshistory.com/ - amazing all covering library. Easy to nabigate despite the site itself in russian

    Personally I have ALL 24 hours LM races videos, however not able to post it public.


    Re: LeMans Basics

    Thanks for the historical recount, seems like it's always been a push/pull between racing cars that were available to the public, and companies putting together cars that are more of a showcase of what can be done when their parts bins are taken to the max. Very interesting.

    So there's quite a few things to keep an eye on during a race then, given that there are essentially four races going on at the same time. 


    Re: LeMans Basics

    It was also the competition with F1 at certain times (in my opinion) - lots of periods when prototypes were as or even more technologically advanced.


    Re: LeMans Basics

    kudryavchik:

    It was also the competition with F1 at certain times (in my opinion) - lots of periods when prototypes were as or even more technologically advanced.

    Agreed! ...and the FiA was not pleased about it and so there has been concerted efforts over time to put sportscar racing " back in its place".


    Re: LeMans Basics

    ..and to complement Kudryavchic's on technological advances/development, here are some examples:

    1. 1953 Jaguar C type won Le Mans and was the only car using disk breaks . It was also the first car at Le Mans ever to average over 100 mph. 
    2. Before this, in 1950, a Crosley HotShot with stock four wheel disc brakes won the Index of Performance in the first race at Sebring (6 hours rather than 12) on New Year's Eve in 1950.
    3. Jim Hall - Chaparral Ground Effect: The 1961 car attempted to use the shaped underside method but there were too many other aerodynamic problems with the car for it to work properly. His 1966 cars used a dramatic high wing for their downforce. His Chaparral 2J “sucker car” of 1970 was revolutionary.
    4. Development of the double clutch Gearbox (PDK) - Porsche 962
    5. Porsche  turbocharging -  Porsche jointly with the firm KKK in the early 70’s initiated the era of automotive turbochargers
    6. Taking "ground effect" from F1 and making it usable in Prototypes (Porsche 956)

    Re: LeMans Basics

    Spyderidol:
    kudryavchik:

    It was also the competition with F1 at certain times (in my opinion) - lots of periods when prototypes were as or even more technologically advanced.

    Agreed! ...and the FiA was not pleased about it and so there has been concerted efforts over time to put sportscar racing " back in its place".

    F1 should say a very big thank you to Bernie. Bernie made it a sustainable well covered show with the best possible roi. Aco on the other hand, for 1 good thing make 2 bad ones... 


    Re: LeMans Basics

    Spyderidol:

    ..and to complement Kudryavchic's on technological advances/development, here are some examples:

    1. 1953 Jaguar C type won Le Mans and was the only car using disk breaks . It was also the first car at Le Mans ever to average over 100 mph. 
    2. Before this, in 1950, a Crosley HotShot with stock four wheel disc brakes won the Index of Performance in the first race at Sebring (6 hours rather than 12) on New Year's Eve in 1950.
    3. Jim Hall - Chaparral Ground Effect: The 1961 car attempted to use the shaped underside method but there were too many other aerodynamic problems with the car for it to work properly. His 1966 cars used a dramatic high wing for their downforce. His Chaparral 2J “sucker car” of 1970 was revolutionary.
    4. Development of the double clutch Gearbox (PDK) - Porsche 962
    5. Porsche  turbocharging -  Porsche jointly with the firm KKK in the early 70’s initiated the era of automotive turbochargers
    6. Taking "ground effect" from F1 and making it usable in Prototypes (Porsche 956)

    Yep, there were lots and lots of things. First electronic engine management too (956 bosch ecu). Passive ground effects with skirts, of course was done first by AU in 1938 rekordwagen (which can also can be called a prototype;). But active, with vent - true, it was Chapparal. Jim Hall is genius, to me he was much more innovative thinking than Chapman (who only adopted known things) and Gordon Murray.

    To me Hall is closer to Porsche, Eberhorst, Jano and Uhlenhaut. Maybe his constructions were not winning always, but clearly non standard thinking.


    Re: LeMans Basics

    Not Le Mans, but group 7 Can Am. Shadows were amazing))) scary to shit to drive, but anyway))) big block 750-800 hp gokartShadow-AVS-MkI-Chevrolet-7670.jpg


    Re: LeMans Basics

    First ground effect. Porsche and Eberan von Eberhorst development. Notings by Eberan von Eberhorst

    Screenshot_20220127-194338_YandexDisk.jpg


    Re: LeMans Basics

    IMSA confirmed the change of top class name from DPi to GTP. GTP by imsa classification were the group c prototypes that took a part in american races. Legendary epoh, with 962, nissans, jags, eagle toyotas and chevrolet intrepids. Early 90's prototypes had about 8000-10000 lbs of downforce at 200 mph with the l/d ratio of >-5:1. Immense amounts and great efficiency. Even f1 cars of today dont touch such levels.


    Re: LeMans Basics

    After having missed the first IMSA race I'll have to be more attentive to the schedule for March 16th. I hear from other posts here that it was quite intense. 


    Re: LeMans Basics

    Emmanuel,

    One great thing about IMSA races, they post the full race, without commercials, on their YouTube channel usually 4-6 days after the race finishes.  Also features their superior commentators, lead by John Hindhaugh.

    Worth a look.

    Jim



    Re: LeMans Basics

    Didn't know that multimatic builds the chassis for mb amg one and am valkyrie

    https://www.dailysportscar.com/2022/02/10/catching-up-with-larry-holt-multimatic-founder-on-mustangs-and-lmdhs.html


    Re: LeMans Basics

    Nice to compare Hypercar and current DP classes

    Hypercar

    kuW-j4Dn8Ik.jpg


    Re: LeMans Basics

    DP. Much cheaper class than Hypercar. 4 seconds faster

    16475518446992vNHEcXNkpk.jpg


    Re: LeMans Basics

    GTD (IMSA) is slower than GTLM about 4-5 seconds, costing 3 times less. 


     
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