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Apr 14, 2005 1:35:35 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
The "WT" means "What The", and in order to abide by the rules and ethics of this forum, the "F" in this case must stand for "For Unlawful Carnal Knowledge", or "F" for "Figure it out"... 
Also guys, realize that displacement does not directly relate to the size of the block, it's a measurement of the aggregate amount of air displaced by a full piston stroke in all cylinders within the block. To increase displacement, you can bore the cylinder to a wider diameter (which REMOVES weight, which then can be offset some by the introduction of larger pistons), or you can alter pistons or rods or crankshafts or any combination thereof to gain more stroke. As stroke or bore size is increased, so is rotating mass, placing more stress on all parts holding things together, crank and rods especially. That is why stronger and lighter-weight components are commonly introduced to relieve some of these additional stresses in the interest of long-term reliability and wear. So generally, an increase in displacement on an existing block does not result in increased weight, of any real magnitude. Sometimes, with the right components, you can increase displacement and DECREASE weight, depending on how much of an all-iron boat-anchor the motor was to begin with. Lastly, you can only increase bore width so much within a block, before the cylinder walls get too close together that strength and heat disappation is overcompromised. I would be interested to see what the actual weights are for the 3.6 and the 3.8. I realize that the front-to-rear balance clearly shows more rear bias on the "S", but it's a small difference, which could be more attributable to the huge and wide "S" rear wheels and tires more than any real extra weight in the 3.8L. But both motors utilize the same block, and 3.8L of displacement means that there's room for 0.2L more AIR inside of the 3.8, though they share the same outer wrapper. The only time you see significant increase of weight due to displacement is when you step up to a larger block, i.e. a 4.9L (302) Ford engine is much lighter than a 7.0L (428) Ford engine, because they use two completely different blocks.
I apologize if this is all OBVIOUS info for many. I just thought it was worth commenting on, since it seems that many are inferring that bigger displacement must mean more weight.
Also guys, realize that displacement does not directly relate to the size of the block, it's a measurement of the aggregate amount of air displaced by a full piston stroke in all cylinders within the block. To increase displacement, you can bore the cylinder to a wider diameter (which REMOVES weight, which then can be offset some by the introduction of larger pistons), or you can alter pistons or rods or crankshafts or any combination thereof to gain more stroke. As stroke or bore size is increased, so is rotating mass, placing more stress on all parts holding things together, crank and rods especially. That is why stronger and lighter-weight components are commonly introduced to relieve some of these additional stresses in the interest of long-term reliability and wear. So generally, an increase in displacement on an existing block does not result in increased weight, of any real magnitude. Sometimes, with the right components, you can increase displacement and DECREASE weight, depending on how much of an all-iron boat-anchor the motor was to begin with. Lastly, you can only increase bore width so much within a block, before the cylinder walls get too close together that strength and heat disappation is overcompromised. I would be interested to see what the actual weights are for the 3.6 and the 3.8. I realize that the front-to-rear balance clearly shows more rear bias on the "S", but it's a small difference, which could be more attributable to the huge and wide "S" rear wheels and tires more than any real extra weight in the 3.8L. But both motors utilize the same block, and 3.8L of displacement means that there's room for 0.2L more AIR inside of the 3.8, though they share the same outer wrapper. The only time you see significant increase of weight due to displacement is when you step up to a larger block, i.e. a 4.9L (302) Ford engine is much lighter than a 7.0L (428) Ford engine, because they use two completely different blocks.
I apologize if this is all OBVIOUS info for many. I just thought it was worth commenting on, since it seems that many are inferring that bigger displacement must mean more weight.
Apr 14, 2005 1:52:14 PM
- Holminator
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
So basically, you're saying that because absorption in the moderator is a major loss of neutrons in a thermal reactor, a fast reactor has an inherently superior neutron economy; that is, there are excess neutrons not required to sustain the chain reaction. WTF? 
That was way over my head! 
Thanks for explaining anyway Boss!
I have to find the write up from Porsche tonight that says the 997S has more weight in the rear than the 997. I'm sure I saw it a few months ago.
That was way over my head! Thanks for explaining anyway Boss!I have to find the write up from Porsche tonight that says the 997S has more weight in the rear than the 997. I'm sure I saw it a few months ago.
Apr 14, 2005 2:02:07 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Don't worry about it Holms, just keep a can of ball bearings and 40-weight oil in your glovebox in case your Phetzer valve blows out....
Well, the front to rear balance figures that Carlos posted clearly indicate a "touch" more weight in the rear of the "S". But as I said, it would be nice to know what the actual weight of the 3.6 and 3.8 motors are, so that we could include or eliminate them as a factor in the bias difference. Those big honking 295-19's on the back of my car, more disproportionately larger than the fronts when compared to the standard 997 18" wheel/tire combos, just HAS to contribute to the increased published rear bias on an "S". BUT, the additional GRIP they provide may actually NET MORE HANDLING BALANCE on a skidpad. In short, the positive rear grip may outweight the negative rear weight. But I'm no chassis engineer... I'm no anything engineer, but I play one on the internet!!
Well, the front to rear balance figures that Carlos posted clearly indicate a "touch" more weight in the rear of the "S". But as I said, it would be nice to know what the actual weight of the 3.6 and 3.8 motors are, so that we could include or eliminate them as a factor in the bias difference. Those big honking 295-19's on the back of my car, more disproportionately larger than the fronts when compared to the standard 997 18" wheel/tire combos, just HAS to contribute to the increased published rear bias on an "S". BUT, the additional GRIP they provide may actually NET MORE HANDLING BALANCE on a skidpad. In short, the positive rear grip may outweight the negative rear weight. But I'm no chassis engineer... I'm no anything engineer, but I play one on the internet!!
Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
Dilinger said:
Holminator you mean no part of yours have regreting for not buying the S?
Same here, I have no regrets.
If I lived in Europe, then for sure I would have ordered a S instead of a non-S. But here in the states, after 4500 miles, I have never encountered a situation where a standard C2 did not meet my requirements. It passes cars instantly, stops on a dime, and is a joy to drive on mountain roads. What else do I need?
Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
Dilinger said:
wow and yes you want us to believe you have not regret for not buying the SSSSSSSSSS hahaha
Let me say again, Chris, a respected writer for the UK Porsche only magazine GT, regretted buying his 997S after driving his friend's regular 997 with the PCCB brakes. He flat out said he bought the wrong car (997S). Granted this guy seems to be more of an old school Porsche driver, there are some 997S owners who have regrets...
This was a surprise to me (hence the "WTF" in my orignal post subject). I always thought the S would be better but in some cases I guess not.
Apr 14, 2005 3:20:14 PM
- SoCal Alan
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Apr 14, 2005 3:24:50 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Some of these automotive writers get caught up in so much romantic prose and mumbo-jumbo, that it's like listening to a wine taster. One closet-case Porschephile writer doesn't raise my eyebrows much. Most writers prefer the Boxster, quite honestly. So take what he has to say in his column for what it is, ONE opinion, one that is seriously getting lost in subtle details, and then make your own decision by test driving cars... Although it'd be tough to find a standard car with PCCB's, as the demographic of that option usually buys "S".
Apr 14, 2005 3:53:34 PM
- Dilinger
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
David which car you have you want to have?
i read your original post, and i repplied to you . I read this article very carefully, and i commented on that.
It is the 997 with PCCB's that is best not the 997
Furthermore, i dont know any S owner you has regret the fact that he did not go for the S !!
Do you know anybody? Then maybe i can trade with him
i read your original post, and i repplied to you . I read this article very carefully, and i commented on that.
It is the 997 with PCCB's that is best not the 997
Furthermore, i dont know any S owner you has regret the fact that he did not go for the S !!
Do you know anybody? Then maybe i can trade with him
Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
Dilinger said:
David which car you have you want to have?
i read your original post, and i repplied to you . I read this article very carefully, and i commented on that.
It is the 997 with PCCB's that is best not the 997
Furthermore, i dont know any S owner you has regret the fact that he did not go for the S !!
Do you know anybody? Then maybe i can trade with him
I have an '01 regular Boxster. The car I want is the Cayman.
I corrected myself later and just today I said it was the regular 997 with PCCB that was best. If I were going to move to a 911 that would be the car for me (as I said yesterday). No PASM. Talk to Chris, the writer of that GT article. He'll trade you his 997S for the regular 997 IF it has the PCCB.
Any way I'm not trying to stir up trouble. That GT article was interesting to me because it's the first time I heard from a respected source that the regular 997 (WITH PCCB) might be better than the 997S. I just wanted to find out what others thought.
Apr 14, 2005 7:45:24 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
69bossnine said:
Well, the front to rear balance figures that Carlos posted clearly indicate a "touch" more weight in the rear of the "S".
You misunderstood me, they both have the same weight distribution, 38/62 on both models.
Quote:
But as I said, it would be nice to know what the actual weight of the 3.6 and 3.8 motors are, so that we could include or eliminate them as a factor in the bias difference.
202 kilos for 3.6l and all I know about the 3.8l is that its no heavier than the 3.6l, and since I doubt its any lighter either it should be 202 as well.
Apr 14, 2005 8:46:01 PM
- Holminator
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
69bossnine said:
Some of these automotive writers get caught up in so much romantic prose and mumbo-jumbo, that it's like listening to a wine taster. One closet-case Porschephile writer doesn't raise my eyebrows much. Most writers prefer the Boxster, quite honestly. So take what he has to say in his column for what it is, ONE opinion, one that is seriously getting lost in subtle details, and then make your own decision by test driving cars... Although it'd be tough to find a standard car with PCCB's, as the demographic of that option usually buys "S".
The Boxster is a better car. It's far more balanced in turns than our cars. Straight physics. No way around it. The problem with the Boxster is that it needs at least 300 horses/270 lb-ft at <=3000 lbs. IMHO. That's why I switched. Now I'm hearing rumors of a turbo Cayman. Damn!
Apr 14, 2005 10:32:06 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
No disrespect to the Boxster intended, I like the little boogers. My only reasons for not buying one are:
1. Not near enough power/weight ratio for me.
2. Styling - If the 911 is your supermodel girlfriend, the Boxster is it's dorky little half-sister that tags along on every date.
3. Image - Yes, I'm vain to a point, and the Boxster is too tootsie-cutesy-fruitsy..
4. I've always loved 911's since I was a nibblett, especially coupes, and the Boxster aint no 911 coupe.
With that said, it's the best 2-seat sportscar for the money, period, IMHO. They just don't stir my soul, let alone my checkbook..
Carlos, thank you for supporting my inkling that there's no real weight difference with the 3.8L engine. It wouldn't make much sense for it to be heavier.
1. Not near enough power/weight ratio for me.
2. Styling - If the 911 is your supermodel girlfriend, the Boxster is it's dorky little half-sister that tags along on every date.
3. Image - Yes, I'm vain to a point, and the Boxster is too tootsie-cutesy-fruitsy..
4. I've always loved 911's since I was a nibblett, especially coupes, and the Boxster aint no 911 coupe.
With that said, it's the best 2-seat sportscar for the money, period, IMHO. They just don't stir my soul, let alone my checkbook..
Carlos, thank you for supporting my inkling that there's no real weight difference with the 3.8L engine. It wouldn't make much sense for it to be heavier.
Apr 14, 2005 11:24:46 PM
- Holminator
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Apr 14, 2005 11:57:21 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
You know in reality, we are just splitting hairs, they are both great cars and very similar in reality compared to other cars, its just that we are so focused and specialised on these cars that even though the differences are there we tend blow them up for comparison purposes, but at the end of the day they are similar cars. How can anybody not be happy with a base 997? sure, a 997S may be better but its not like night and day anyway, we are priviliged to be able to onw any of the two, and then the 997GT3 will come, then the 997TT and so on... 
Apr 15, 2005 11:02:42 AM
- Holminator
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Carlos from Spain
Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Oh Carlos! You had me going with the olive branch, but then you poked me in the eye at the last minute, buddy! LOL!
Both cars are great! I had alot of fun with this thread. Besides, I refuse to take myself so seriously as to stake my ego on my position (eek, I hope).
The only thing that I will say in all seriousness is that I feel sorry for all the good people, who are/were too afraid to buy this car because of a few negative threads. This car is awesome! Moreover, to live in fear is not to live at all. Blah, enough of being serious. Time to have fun! Vroooooooooooom!
Both cars are great! I had alot of fun with this thread. Besides, I refuse to take myself so seriously as to stake my ego on my position (eek, I hope).
The only thing that I will say in all seriousness is that I feel sorry for all the good people, who are/were too afraid to buy this car because of a few negative threads. This car is awesome! Moreover, to live in fear is not to live at all. Blah, enough of being serious. Time to have fun! Vroooooooooooom!
Apr 15, 2005 12:38:39 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
Holminator said:
Oh Carlos! You had me going with the olive branch, but then you poked me in the eye at the last minute, buddy! LOL!
I was well intended
I meant that there is always an upgraded P-car around the corner so we should all just be happy we can enjoy any of them intead of getting hangged up on small differences
Apr 15, 2005 12:41:16 PM
- Dilinger
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Carlos from Spain
Apr 15, 2005 12:57:16 PM
- 69bossnine
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Carlos from Spain
Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
You know in reality, we are just splitting hairs, they are both great cars and very similar in reality compared to other cars, its just that we are so focused and specialised on these cars that even though the differences are there we tend blow them up for comparison purposes, but at the end of the day they are similar cars. How can anybody not be happy with a base 997? sure, a 997S may be better but its not like night and day anyway, we are priviliged to be able to onw any of the two, and then the 997GT3 will come, then the 997TT and so on...
Yes, we are splitting hairs.... or as I like to put it, picking the fly sh** out of the pepper. Where I really lose my mind is when rag writers so over-analyze and mind-screw their driving observations, that it sounds like Geraldo Rivera describing his "feelings" right before swinging the sledgehammer into Capone's vault... :rolleyes: It's overkill, overanalysis, to the point that you get more delusion and imagination than substance. Especially when you're reading the marque-specific mags, who's writers really need to get a life and drive an old rusty rattletrap pickup truck to smack them back into reality. Good thread, looks like the thermometer's popped on this turkey!!
P.S. The "S" RULES!!!!, standards SUCK!!!!
Apr 15, 2005 1:30:28 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Apr 15, 2005 1:30:36 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
Dilinger said:
now Carlos dont get me thinking again!!!!!!
when you own a 997 S the 997 Turbo will not be such a tease because of its price difference which in big.
But when you have a 997 and you know that with 2 dimes you could have the S now thats torture
But what happens if the Cayman S is faster than the 997S and is also two dimes cheaper, will you be tortured?
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