Apr 12, 2005 9:44:08 PM
- 69bossnine
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Apr 12, 2005 11:19:37 PM
- Silver Bullet
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
There was another article, this one in EVO, comparing the base 997 with PCCB's to a 987S with PASM. One of the 2 test drivers owned a 997S without PCCB. He concluded that the 997S (his own car) was the best car (even though it wasn't formally tested in that piece), & that PASM was a much better option than PCCB's.
Interestingly, the 987S lapped the track faster than the base 997 with PCCB's - by both drivers.
I remain quite skeptical about PCCB's - especially at their cost. I am absolutely certain that if i was considering 997 with PCCB's vs 997S without, I'd get the 997S without PCCB's.
Hey - I AM considering a 997S without PCCB's!
Please help: it will be a bit of a stretch for my budget, so I'm looking for what folks think are must have options. So far, the only must have for me is sport chrono.
-SB
Interestingly, the 987S lapped the track faster than the base 997 with PCCB's - by both drivers.
I remain quite skeptical about PCCB's - especially at their cost. I am absolutely certain that if i was considering 997 with PCCB's vs 997S without, I'd get the 997S without PCCB's.
Hey - I AM considering a 997S without PCCB's!
Please help: it will be a bit of a stretch for my budget, so I'm looking for what folks think are must have options. So far, the only must have for me is sport chrono.
-SB
Apr 13, 2005 1:21:18 AM
- pic911s
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
As someone who recently went throught this dilema S non S, I really think it comes down to personal issues. I got the non S with PASM 19 inch wheels, sport steering and Bixenon lights. I also added sport chrono and some other minor options that would have been on both vehicles. I needed to go with the tip (Physical issues with my right shoulder).
I could afford both. The difference in canada between base an S is $14K. My addons brought the difference to down to $9K. Being a newbie to P cars I have no real impartialities. When I test drove both cars I found the base with the Tip was a little more responsive than the S, I don't really think you get the best out of the S with the Tip and that was one of the reasons I went for the base.
The extra horses and the bling bling brakes
( i know they really are better brakes) couldn't make me spend the extra $9k. The car will be plenty fast for me now - perhaps I will need more in the future? who knows I think for those of us that are more experienced drivers the S makes perfect sense. If I really want a different sound Fabspeed or some other artisan can upgrade it for me for a couple of thousand and there are other qualified people that can upgrade the car to get me more horsepower.
For me it was the right choice, for those amongst us like 69bossnine given his Mom could you really see him driving anything else??
I could afford both. The difference in canada between base an S is $14K. My addons brought the difference to down to $9K. Being a newbie to P cars I have no real impartialities. When I test drove both cars I found the base with the Tip was a little more responsive than the S, I don't really think you get the best out of the S with the Tip and that was one of the reasons I went for the base.
The extra horses and the bling bling brakes
( i know they really are better brakes) couldn't make me spend the extra $9k. The car will be plenty fast for me now - perhaps I will need more in the future? who knows I think for those of us that are more experienced drivers the S makes perfect sense. If I really want a different sound Fabspeed or some other artisan can upgrade it for me for a couple of thousand and there are other qualified people that can upgrade the car to get me more horsepower.
For me it was the right choice, for those amongst us like 69bossnine given his Mom could you really see him driving anything else??
Apr 13, 2005 11:10:19 AM
- Holminator
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Concur with pic911s. The most important difference is the fore & aft weight distribution--the main reason I never liked the 911 until the 997. The S, if I recall correctly at this freakin' early hour of the morning, is 65-35 whereas the non-S is 60-40. Now that's a HUGE difference in my little humble opinion! 
Repeat--That is a major issue for a 911 newbee like me, who has an addiction for slinging cars through the turns--the main reason I've always favored mid-engine cars like the Boxster & 3rd generation RX-7.
Oh, boy. What have I done? I guess I just threw another grenade in the room. Sorry.
Repeat--That is a major issue for a 911 newbee like me, who has an addiction for slinging cars through the turns--the main reason I've always favored mid-engine cars like the Boxster & 3rd generation RX-7.
Oh, boy. What have I done? I guess I just threw another grenade in the room. Sorry.
My car is a may build and I have to wait sooooo loooong 
. Soon as I get i will be sure to post I think if I'm not mistaken Holminator has thesame setup with the Carrera Classics. I can't recall if his pics show a closeup 
Apr 13, 2005 12:18:35 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Don't be silly Holminator, its too early in the AM for you 
do you know how much weight you would have to hang over the rear of the 997S to increase rear weight bias by 5% on the 997S??
The official rear weight bias for the 997S is 61,7/39,3 and also confirmed by independant magazine measurements. Same as the 62/38 of the base 997.
Contrary to popular belief, the 3.8L is not heavier than the base 3.6L engine, the gearbox is same for both and same weight as the 996's getrag despite the larger gears and shafts, and the exhausts are even lighter...
So forget about any diference in weight distribution between the 997 and 997S
The 997C4 (if not not widebody) may get a 60/40 distribution due to its AWD system in the front if its like the 996C4, but still only a 2% difference, and shadowed by the AWD handling chararcteristics anyway.
do you know how much weight you would have to hang over the rear of the 997S to increase rear weight bias by 5% on the 997S??
The official rear weight bias for the 997S is 61,7/39,3 and also confirmed by independant magazine measurements. Same as the 62/38 of the base 997.
Contrary to popular belief, the 3.8L is not heavier than the base 3.6L engine, the gearbox is same for both and same weight as the 996's getrag despite the larger gears and shafts, and the exhausts are even lighter...
So forget about any diference in weight distribution between the 997 and 997S
The 997C4 (if not not widebody) may get a 60/40 distribution due to its AWD system in the front if its like the 996C4, but still only a 2% difference, and shadowed by the AWD handling chararcteristics anyway.
Apr 13, 2005 1:18:31 PM
- Matt C
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Carlos from Spain
Apr 13, 2005 1:38:24 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
Matt C said:Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
The official rear weight bias for the 997S is 61,7/39,3 and also ...
61.7% + 39.3% = 101%
Now it's even mathematically proven what the difference is between a base 997 and a 997S: 1%
(Sorry Carlos, I just couldn't stop myself)
Very funny Matt
You know what I meant, 61,7/38,3...
Apr 13, 2005 1:45:04 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
61.7% + 39.3% = 101%
Now it's even mathematically proven what the difference is between a base 997 and a 997S: 1%
AHA!! Further proof that only in an "S" can you exceed the space-time equilibrium!!!!!!!!!!!!!
61.7/39.3...... That's nothin..... My Boss 429 feels like it's 120 / -40 when you fly into a corner!!
Apr 13, 2005 2:45:44 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:I find that statement to be concerning, as we get so caught up in "mind-games" driving two cars that are so similar, that we perceive differences that may not be accurate. The standard Carrera reaches peak torque of 273 lb-ft @ 4250 rpm. The S reaches 295 lb-ft at the same 4250 rpm. That's the math. I would suggest that any perceived "agility" at low rpm is a product of your imagination. I for one, after taking my first drive in a Carrera S following a test drive in a standard, immediately found the exact opposite of what you claim, seat of the pants. I'll quote an old american saying, "there's no replacement for displacement".
The Carrera is in low rpm more agile than the S
Apr 13, 2005 3:52:20 PM
- DavidSF
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
69bossnine said:Quote:I find that statement to be concerning, as we get so caught up in "mind-games" driving two cars that are so similar, that we perceive differences that may not be accurate. The standard Carrera reaches peak torque of 273 lb-ft @ 4250 rpm. The S reaches 295 lb-ft at the same 4250 rpm. That's the math. I would suggest that any perceived "agility" at low rpm is a product of your imagination. I for one, after taking my first drive in a Carrera S following a test drive in a standard, immediately found the exact opposite of what you claim, seat of the pants. I'll quote an old american saying, "there's no replacement for displacement".
The Carrera is in low rpm more agile than the S
Doesn't the regular 997 weigh less than the 997S? That most definitely results in a more agile car, at any rpm.
"there's no replacement for displacement" is false. There is a replacement: weight reduction!
Actually weight reduction is better than displacement because it increases every performance measurment including, 0 - 60, slalom, handling, etc... whereas displacement all that gives you is better 0 - 60 and top speed. And let's not forget displacement usually comes with a penalty: added weight. I feel too much emphasis is put on hp and not enough on weight.
David
Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
DavidSF said:
Doesn't the regular 997 weigh less than the 997S? That most definitely results in a more agile car, at any rpm.
David
The standard S weighs 56 pounds more than the standard non-S. I wonder how much of that increase is the added weight of 19 inch wheels over the weight of the standard 18's on the non-S? Since most non-S buyers add 19" wheels, I wonder what the difference is at that point????
Phil
Apr 13, 2005 4:03:30 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:Not enough weight to be perceptible. The wheel diameter does affect final drive ratio, but alot of standard owners are upgrading to 19's, so, make what you will of it...
Doesn't the regular 997 weigh less than the 997S? That most definitely results in a more agile car, at any rpm.
Apr 13, 2005 4:09:33 PM
- DavidSF
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
69bossnine said:Quote:Not enough weight to be perceptible. The wheel diameter does affect final drive ratio, but alot of standard owners are upgrading to 19's, so, make what you will of it...
Doesn't the regular 997 weigh less than the 997S? That most definitely results in a more agile car, at any rpm.
I take it you own as 997S? It's funny to me that for the S owners the wee bit weight difference makes no difference but the wee bit difference in hp/torque makes a big difference. Go figure.
David
Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
DavidSF said:
I take it you own as 997S? It's funny to me that for the S owners the wee bit weight difference makes no difference but the wee bit difference in hp/torque makes a big difference. Go figure.
David
But do you agree that most non-S owners upgrade to 19" wheels? And don't 19" wheels weigh more than 18's? Does PASM (that most add to their non-S) weigh more than the standard suspension? I guess my point is, is there really any significant weight difference between the non-S cars that most people actually purchase and the S model?
But even if you compare a standard S to a standard non-S here are the differences (using the numbers in the Porsche brochure).
Weight: S is 1.8% heavier than non-S
Horsepower: S has 9.5% more horsepower than non-S
Torque: S torque is 8.2% greater than non-S
Phil
Apr 13, 2005 5:52:37 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
I take it you own as 997S? It's funny to me that for the S owners the wee bit weight difference makes no difference but the wee bit difference in hp/torque makes a big difference. Go figure.
30 horsepower is "a wee bit"????? LOL!!!! Ask any racer which he would choose, 30 extra horses, or 56 less pounds....
Or better yet, go to Home Depot, find a 30 h.p. lawn tractor, grab the output pully with 56 pounds of force (oh, hell, give it everything you've got, go for it, put on your game face..), and ask the clerk to fire her up and slide it to full throttle. Then come back here and tell us about that "wee bit".........if you still have fingers left to type with....
Apr 13, 2005 5:57:14 PM
- 69bossnine
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Apr 13, 2005 7:36:17 PM
- DavidSF
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
69bossnine said:Quote:
I take it you own as 997S? It's funny to me that for the S owners the wee bit weight difference makes no difference but the wee bit difference in hp/torque makes a big difference. Go figure.
30 horsepower is "a wee bit"????? LOL!!!! Ask any racer which he would choose, 30 extra horses, or 56 less pounds....
All things being equal, two exact same Porsches except car A weighs 56 lbs. more and has 30 more HP than car B, my guess is the race car driver will take car B. As I said, weight reduction improves performance across the board. More HP just improves 0 - 60 and top speed. Because of this you can't compare hp vs. weight in a linear manner such as by saying a 10% increase in hp is better than a 2% weight reduction. That 2% in weight reduction improves performance in all areas and you may end up with a better all around performance car whereas that 10% increase in HP improves just a couple of performance measurements.
Apr 13, 2005 8:00:34 PM
- 69bossnine
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Obviously you're not a race car driver. Well.....neither am I .... 2% in weight reduction would never compensate for a 10% power handicap, no matter how you slice it, and you're forgetting that the "S" has a slightly lower center of gravity, bigger tire footprint and bigger brakes, all of which makes-up-for and surpasses that 56 pound handicap all by itself, without the extra horsepower even being considered. The huge advantage the S takes at Nurburgring that Carlos posted cleary illustrates the soundness of my thinking... It is a full 11-14 seconds (which is HUGE) faster around the circuit, despite the extra poundage.
.... 2% in weight reduction would never compensate for a 10% power handicap, no matter how you slice it, and you're forgetting that the "S" has a slightly lower center of gravity, bigger tire footprint and bigger brakes, all of which makes-up-for and surpasses that 56 pound handicap all by itself, without the extra horsepower even being considered. The huge advantage the S takes at Nurburgring that Carlos posted cleary illustrates the soundness of my thinking... It is a full 11-14 seconds (which is HUGE) faster around the circuit, despite the extra poundage.
Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
DavidSF said:
All things being equal, two exact same Porsches except car A weighs 56 lbs. more and has 30 more HP than car B, my guess is the race car driver will take car B. As I said, weight reduction improves performance across the board. More HP just improves 0 - 60 and top speed. Because of this you can't compare hp vs. weight in a linear manner such as by saying a 10% increase in hp is better than a 2% weight reduction. That 2% in weight reduction improves performance in all areas and you may end up with a better all around performance car whereas that 10% increase in HP improves just a couple of performance measurements.
This is all fine and dandy, but you have not addressed my question....Do similarly equipped S and non-S 997's weigh the same? It appears that majority of non-S buyers have added 19" wheels/tires and also PASM. I consulted a wheel expert at Wheel Enhancement in Culver City, CA and he said the difference in an 18" wheel/tire combo and an 19" wheel/tire combo would range from 4 to 20 pounds per wheel. He said the average would most likely be 4 to 7 pounds per wheel/tire. So if 6 pounds were used, the S should weigh 24 pounds more than the non-S just because of the 19" standard wheels. So now we are down to a 32# difference. I am sure that the larger brakes add a few pounds, but this is a trade-off most of us would make. I don't know how much weight the PASM suspension system adds, but I would guess it adds something since it is certainly more complicated.
So, unless you are comparing a non-S car without PASM or 19" wheels, there may not be any weight difference between it and a S.
Just my thoughts on this 56# weight issue.
Phil
Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
PS CA said:Quote:
DavidSF said:
All things being equal, two exact same Porsches except car A weighs 56 lbs. more and has 30 more HP than car B, my guess is the race car driver will take car B. As I said, weight reduction improves performance across the board. More HP just improves 0 - 60 and top speed. Because of this you can't compare hp vs. weight in a linear manner such as by saying a 10% increase in hp is better than a 2% weight reduction. That 2% in weight reduction improves performance in all areas and you may end up with a better all around performance car whereas that 10% increase in HP improves just a couple of performance measurements.
This is all fine and dandy, but you have not addressed my question....Do similarly equipped S and non-S 997's weigh the same? It appears that majority of non-S buyers have added 19" wheels/tires and also PASM. I consulted a wheel expert at Wheel Enhancement in Culver City, CA and he said the difference in an 18" wheel/tire combo and an 19" wheel/tire combo would range from 4 to 20 pounds per wheel. He said the average would most likely be 4 to 7 pounds per wheel/tire. So if 6 pounds were used, the S should weigh 24 pounds more than the non-S just because of the 19" standard wheels. So now we are down to a 32# difference. I am sure that the larger brakes add a few pounds, but this is a trade-off most of us would make. I don't know how much weight the PASM suspension system adds, but I would guess it adds something since it is certainly more complicated.
So, unless you are comparing a non-S car without PASM or 19" wheels, there may not be any weight difference between it and a S.
Just my thoughts on this 56# weight issue.
Phil
I would think similarly equipped 997 and 997S cars weigh about the same since from what I've heard the bigger engine in the 997S actually weighs the same as the regular 997 engine. But then again maybe the 997S has a beefier and heavier gearbox or other parts to handle the increased power in the 997S? I don't know. I also don't know if most regular 997 owners get either/both the 19" wheels or PASM, although that doesn't make much sense to me. Why not just get the 997S if you want both options? In any case, from what I've read if I were buying a 997 I think I would get the base 997 with PCCB brakes. No PASM.
Apr 13, 2005 9:42:07 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Quote:
DavidSF said:
I would think similarly equipped 997 and 997S cars weigh about the same since from what I've heard the bigger engine in the 997S actually weighs the same as the regular 997 engine. But then again maybe the 997S has a beefier and heavier gearbox or other parts to handle the increased power in the 997S? I don't know.
As I said above, the gearbox is the same. Only difference I know of is that the 997S has a self-adjusting clutch that maintains its travel/engament throught its wear and life-cicle, and the 997 doesn't.
Also the larger 3.8L 997S engine is the same weight as the 3.6L because some of its parts were made of lightweight materials to compensate.
Apr 14, 2005 8:18:31 AM
- Dilinger
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Carlos from Spain
Re: "Are you going to race it?"
what are we talking about here?
Are all 997 owners or future owners try to justify their purchase/future purchase though "labeling" the S as the wrong buy?
Well there is some news for you the S is a better car and you know it.That is the basic motive of this debate.
I cant imagine any Porsche buyer rejecting any horsepower, and moreover rejecting those beautifull 19" wheels along with the beautifull agressive red brakes.
Furthermore, i cant imagine someone ginving so much money for buying a 997 and thinking about that slight difference with the S.
It just looks a bad investment to me.
As for the increased abilities of the S, i m very sorry for being hard, but the truth is-and is always better to state the truth- that only 1% of us has the knowledge/ability to explore and "use" the edge that the 997S offeres over the 997.
That said and excluding the power priviledge of the S over the standard, the S is STILL a better buy in my mind as it is more beautifull more aggressive and has some useful extras as standard (PASM-XENON etc.)
So dont fool yourself cause i really laugh when people try to fit the elephant in a matchbox!
Are all 997 owners or future owners try to justify their purchase/future purchase though "labeling" the S as the wrong buy?
Well there is some news for you the S is a better car and you know it.That is the basic motive of this debate.
I cant imagine any Porsche buyer rejecting any horsepower, and moreover rejecting those beautifull 19" wheels along with the beautifull agressive red brakes.
Furthermore, i cant imagine someone ginving so much money for buying a 997 and thinking about that slight difference with the S.
It just looks a bad investment to me.
As for the increased abilities of the S, i m very sorry for being hard, but the truth is-and is always better to state the truth- that only 1% of us has the knowledge/ability to explore and "use" the edge that the 997S offeres over the 997.
That said and excluding the power priviledge of the S over the standard, the S is STILL a better buy in my mind as it is more beautifull more aggressive and has some useful extras as standard (PASM-XENON etc.)
So dont fool yourself cause i really laugh when people try to fit the elephant in a matchbox!
Apr 14, 2005 10:51:12 AM
- Holminator
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Re: "Are you going to race it?"
Dilinger's right. The S is a better car than the mine. In my own defense, I saved several thousand dollars and still got 19-in rubbers (I should be on TV), PASM and Sport Chrono and at the same time avoided a kangaroo court and mock summary execution behind my house by my lovely, penny-pinching wife. 
Some of you can related to my life; I'm sure of it!
If the performance gains of the S over the non-S had been greater, I think it would have be an easier sell to the household executive committee. The 0.2 sec difference, absent a move to Deutschland, which she wants, was not enough.
As an aside comment, Porsche (I know you are listening ), you need to publish better data on the advantages of PCCB. It's not enough to say PCCB makes the car faster and more responsive than before. You need to present stats on break wear, breaking ability from 100-0 kph, and so on. If I had that data, I would have added PCCB.
PS I have no regrets about not buying the S. As usual, my wife proved to be the smarter one in the household, next to the cat, who has managed to get two adults to work all-day to support her while to eats & sleeps if not playing with a hundred damn cat toys. I honestly could not tell the difference between the two models in the test drive. I hope the difference in feel to some good people, who are smarter than me, is not related to a marketing effect associated with the letter "S."
PASM and Sport Chrono and at the same time avoided a kangaroo court and mock summary execution behind my house by my lovely, penny-pinching wife. Some of you can related to my life; I'm sure of it!
If the performance gains of the S over the non-S had been greater, I think it would have be an easier sell to the household executive committee. The 0.2 sec difference, absent a move to Deutschland, which she wants, was not enough.
As an aside comment, Porsche (I know you are listening
), you need to publish better data on the advantages of PCCB. It's not enough to say PCCB makes the car faster and more responsive than before. You need to present stats on break wear, breaking ability from 100-0 kph, and so on. If I had that data, I would have added PCCB.
PS I have no regrets about not buying the S. As usual, my wife proved to be the smarter one in the household, next to the cat, who has managed to get two adults to work all-day to support her while to eats & sleeps if not playing with a hundred damn cat toys. I honestly could not tell the difference between the two models in the test drive. I hope the difference in feel to some good people, who are smarter than me, is not related to a marketing effect associated with the letter "S."
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