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    Apr 13, 2005 2:22:52 PM

    Porsche930S Offline
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    Porsche930S
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    Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    So what is the difference betweel flat engines and horizontal engines? I've heard of Porsche as both.

    Heres some links...(Compliments of MAVERICK)
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_engine
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_engine

    Seems like people comfuse this often. So whats the difference?

    Apr 13, 2005 2:35:39 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Carlos from Spain
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    Reply to: Porsche930S

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    I believe the difference is in that the Flat engines have only one crankshaft

    Apr 13, 2005 2:45:11 PM

    Porsche930S Offline
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    Reply to: Carlos from SpainM

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    Hmm, so an H has more than one crankshaft?

    Apr 13, 2005 3:02:39 PM

    GM AustinM
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    Reply to: Porsche930S

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    Yes, the "H" engine has more than one crankshaft, but I don't think the "H" engine has anything to do with what you have heard of about "horizontal" engines. Porsche motors are frequently referred to as "horizontally opposed" engines, which is to say, the pistons and cylinders are arranged in a horizontal plane and in opposition to one another with three pistons on each side turning a central crankshaft. Air-cooled VW's and Subaru motors are also horizontally opposed, but these are flat fours. BMW makes a four cylinder motorcycle engine that is flat and horizontally aligned but all the pistons are on one side, so it would not be "horizontally opposed". They are also famous for their air-cooled twin motorcycle engine, which is horizontally opposed.

    Apr 13, 2005 3:26:50 PM

    MAVERICK Offline
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    Reply to: GM AustinM

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    Pop quiz, Class:

    What's the technical difference between a "V-at-180 degrees" engine and a true boxer engine (horizontally opposed engine)?

    Apr 13, 2005 3:47:24 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: MAVERICK

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Pop quiz, Class:

    What's the technical difference between a "V-at-180 degrees" engine and a true boxer engine (horizontally opposed engine)?



    Is it the cylinder firing order? I've often heard that a true boxer engine has the two opposing cylinders "butting heads" and then recoiling from one another like two boxing gloves...

    Apr 13, 2005 4:33:51 PM

    GM AustinM
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    Reply to: MAVERICK

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    I think the main difference is the crankshaft and how the rods are connected to it. The Boxer configuration has a separate crank pin for each rod and the "180 V" has two rods on each pin.

    Apr 13, 2005 6:49:54 PM

    Porsche930S Offline
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    Reply to: GM AustinM

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    So sorry that I am still confused about this. So an engine in which the cylinders fire towards and away from eachother, click the link for a pic... pic1 ...that is a...?

    Then when they are always the same length apart, as if one of pushing another away from the other, click this link for a visual... pic2 ...this is a...?

    Sorry about the confusion, but the website has them both listed as Boxer engines. Thanks guys!

    Apr 13, 2005 8:14:57 PM

    GM AustinM
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    GM Austin
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    Reply to: Porsche930S

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    They are both boxer engines. The second illustration is mislabeled in that the piston on the right will be moving to the right, away from the crankshaft centerline. The arrow shows it will be moving left, which is incorrect.

    Apr 13, 2005 8:31:20 PM

    MAVERICK Offline
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    Reply to: GM AustinM

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    Quote:
    GM Austin said:
    I think the main diffeerence is the crankshaft and how the rods are connected to it. The Boxer configuration has a separate crank pin for each rod and the "180 V" has two rods on each pin.



    Correct.

    Apr 14, 2005 1:19:50 AM

    MAVERICK Offline
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Is it the cylinder firing order?



    Grant, I doubt firing order has anything to do with it, but I am not certain. So I searched. And my search for the existence of a V-at-180 degree six cylinder engine was of no avail. Therefore, we cannot compare firing orders between a flat boxer engine and a flat non-boxer engine.

    It would be easy to look up the firing order of a Ferrari flat non-boxer 12 cylinder engine but then we would have to find a flat boxer 12 engine made by someone. See the dilemma?

    During my search, I did find the Porsche flat-6 firing order -- 1-6-2-4-3-5 -- and a diagram for the cylinder numbers,
    http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarticles/911_valve_adjust/911_valve_adjust_pic1.jpg

    as well as an interesting page on firing orders:
    http://www.zyra.me.uk/firingo.htm

    Apr 14, 2005 1:31:44 AM

    MAVERICK Offline
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    Reply to: Porsche930S

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    Quote:
    Porsche930S said:
    So sorry that I am still confused about this.



    Here's another page to confuse us:
    http://www.e31.net/engines_e.html

    Salute!

    Apr 14, 2005 2:32:28 AM

    Porsche930S Offline
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    Reply to: MAVERICK

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    That was a pretty interesting read. The page on the firing orders made me think a bit. Some good info on there.

    The other page did confuse me a bit more. So many different definitions out there of this!

    Ok, so heres is something else I found. I remembered that on Flat-6 one of the moderators there, 944guy, has this awesome diagram of a Porsche engine as his signature. He made it himself and it is pretty impressive. So here it is Compliments of 944 guy

    Apr 14, 2005 2:42:31 AM

    GM AustinM
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    GM Austin
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    Reply to: MAVERICK

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    Porsche930S said:
    So sorry that I am still confused about this.



    Here's another page to confuse us:
    http://www.e31.net/engines_e.html

    Salute!



    That's a great link and a very interesting read.

    About the 944guy avatar/signature, this seems to agree with Grants statement about the firing order and simultanous "boxing" action of opposing cylinders. But, I guess opposong cylinders would be firing 360 degrees out of phase with each other, alternating back and forth?

    Apr 14, 2005 3:56:00 AM

    MAVERICK Offline
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    Reply to: GM AustinM

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    Quote:
    GM Austin said:
    But, I guess opposong cylinders would be firing 360 degrees out of phase with each other, alternating back and forth?



    GM, I do not understand your question. Please elaborate.

    Apr 14, 2005 10:05:04 AM

    GM AustinM
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    Reply to: MAVERICK

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    In a four stroke motor, each complete cycle sends pistons up and down the cylinder twice and the crankshaft rotates 720 degrees, two complete rotations. When opposing cylinders of a boxer motor are pushing their pistons out, the're not both on a compression stroke or an exhaust stroke. They must be one complete rotation out of step with each other, so when opposing pistons are moving away from each other, one is on a compression stroke and the other is on an exhaust stroke.

    Apr 14, 2005 9:53:59 PM

    Porsche930S Offline
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    Porsche930S
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    Reply to: GM AustinM

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    Hmm...

    In talking with 944 Guy about his signature on flat-6, the opposing cylinders in one group (front 2, middle 2, and rear 2) fire one revolution apart.

    Apr 15, 2005 2:28:31 AM

    MAVERICK Offline
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    Reply to: Porsche930S

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    Quote:
    Porsche930S said:
    Hmm...

    In talking with 944 Guy about his signature on flat-6, the opposing cylinders in one group (front 2, middle 2, and rear 2) fire one revolution apart.



    The more I scrutinize 944 guy's 3D virtual representation, the more mind-boggling the timing of an internal combustion engine seems.

    If the firing order is 1-6-2-4-3-5, and one group of opposing cylinders, say #1 and #4 fire one crankshaft revolution apart, that means cylinders #6 and #2 also fire within that same revolution, correct?

    Apr 15, 2005 2:38:03 AM

    GM AustinM
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    Reply to: MAVERICK

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said

    If the firing order is 1-6-2-4-3-5, and one group of opposing cylinders, say #1 and #4 fire one crankshaft revolution apart, that means cylinders #6 and #2 also fire within that same revolution, correct?



    I agree with that. Cylinders 1, 6 and 2 fire on one revolution and 4, 3 and 5 fire on the next.

    Apr 15, 2005 1:16:04 PM

    Porsche930S Offline
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    Reply to: GM AustinM

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    Here is a quote from talking with 944 guy about his diagram...

    "Uhhh, lemme see... I made the order correct in that model, so if the cyl numbers are like this:
    3 6
    2 5
    1 4

    Then the order is 1 6 2 4 3 5
    1 and 4, being a flat 6, are obviously exactly out of fase when 1 is firing four is on the intake stroke."

    If you look at the diagram, he is correct. I went cross eyed looking at it trying to catch 4 on the intake stroke as 1 was firing.

    Apr 15, 2005 1:25:25 PM

    GM AustinM
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    GM Austin
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    Reply to: Porsche930S

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    Quote:
    Porsche930S said:
    If you look at the diagram, he is correct. I went cross eyed looking at it trying to catch 4 on the intake stroke as 1 was firing.



    Ha! Me too! I was trying to watch those valves to see which cycle it was on. I finally gave up! I guess you're more persistent than I am. Either that or better eyesight.

    Apr 15, 2005 1:35:09 PM

    Porsche930S Offline
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    Reply to: GM AustinM

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    Quote:
    GM Austin said:
    Quote:
    Porsche930S said:
    If you look at the diagram, he is correct. I went cross eyed looking at it trying to catch 4 on the intake stroke as 1 was firing.



    Ha! Me too! I was trying to watch those valves to see which cycle it was on. I finally gave up! I guess you're more persistent than I am. Either that or better eyesight.



    Haha, I am in class so it is something else to pay attention to. Haha. It did take me a while to get it. Looking at 1 then 4, then looking at 6 to see if it fires within the 1 stroke, ah! Im seeing things!

    Apr 15, 2005 10:09:14 PM

    MAVERICK Offline
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    Reply to: GM AustinM

    Re: Whats the difference? H6 and F6

    Quote:
    GM Austin said:
    I was trying to watch those valves to see which cycle it was on.



    Tell me about it. Success struck once I tried the following visual exercise:
    1)
    2)
    3)
    4)
    5)
    6) (special flat lenses from Weissach)

    Disclaimer: I am not responsible for possible traumatic side effects that may occur. Use caution whenever possible.
     
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