Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996 - Page1

Apr 8, 2005 4:17:39 PM

Flying_Dutchman: Pilot; Loc: European Union BE BXL , Belgium; Posts: 301, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 13, 2003

CUP tires to track a regular 996

I can't wait to go back on the track with my C2 in a few weeks. In preparing myself I am considering to mount Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires on a dedicated track-rim set.

By using those 'street-legal' racing tires, on, to and from the track, I aim not be restrained by the adherence and endurance limits by which my Conti SportContacts (and any road tire indeed I suppose) gave me a hard time on the track before.

My C2 is not fitted with the optional sports suspension and some people advise to give the car some more 'negative camber' in order to take full use of Cup tires.

Has anyone ever done this before? Any experiences to be shared would be welcome.

P.S. I know I would be better off with purchasing a GT3 straight away. In fact, this will probably be my next one and my dealer even proposed me a nice 2nd hand Clubsport

but the bank account advises me to wait 1 or 2 more years.

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Apr 8, 2005 5:29:01 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12585, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Flying_Dutchman

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

Yes, the MPSC's do like a bit of negative camber for best tire life and maximum grip. I would advise at least -1 degree in front and rear. And yes, the ROW M030 is a very nice upgrade if you're going to use tracj tires. You'll also tax the braking system much harder with these tires, so I suggest track pads too...

Remember that these tires are very slippery when they're cold - do several warm-up laps before going fast.

They also like lower pressure (about 32 psi front and 34psi rear is a good starting place - these are HOT temps).

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Apr 8, 2005 7:03:49 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

The level of grip the Cups will provide is really going to drive your standard suspensions crazy, I don't think they are intended to cope with that. I would recomend the RoWM030 at least, and like Grant says, the Cups need more aggersive camber alingment than the Contis so you would have to change alignment back an forth or the Contis will wear unevenly.

Also if you are worried about rain on you way to the tracks, the Pirelli's equivalent, Corsa System, may not ultimatley grip on the dry like the Cups (but still more than normal tires) but also offer halfway decent performance on the wet.

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Apr 8, 2005 9:06:13 PM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

just FYI,
PSCs are pretty scary in the rain

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Apr 8, 2005 10:39:07 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12585, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Moogle

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

Quote:
Moogle said:
just FYI,
PSCs are pretty scary in the rain

Yeah, they're not as bad as slicks, but standing water is to be avoided. By far the best track tire that works in the rain is the Toyo RA1. I love these, since they are SOOOO forgiving. You can really slide the car around on these, since they breakway so gently and with lots of feedback. Most track tires are pretty unfriendly once you exceed their grip. They don't come in perfect sizes for 18" 996 wheels (only make 275/35/18 for the rear). They're cheap too...

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Apr 9, 2005 8:20:18 AM

Flying_Dutchman: Pilot; Loc: European Union BE BXL , Belgium; Posts: 301, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 13, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

Thanks for the feedback so far guys. Brake-pads and liquid are already at track-standards. All the rest is stock. As regards camber adjustment, clearly, I would prefer avoiding to look for an impossible compromise. This car is my daily driver

.

Upon looking into Tirerack technical recommendations for the PSC I found the following:

(start quote)
Vehicle Wheel Alignment Recommendations
Camber should be negative:

Acceptable 1 degree negative
Preferred 1.5 to 3 degrees negative (for most basically-stock or moderately-modified cars, the "sweet spot" is going to be in this range)
Maximum 4 degrees negative

Proceed carefully with camber adjustments. Too much camber means giving up efficiency in braking and accelerating. Achieving the right balance between cornering grip and straight-line grip (braking/accelerating) is key. For those enthusiasts who simply want the opportunity to explore their vehicles' limits with higher levels of grip, but who don't want to make serious modifications to achieve high negative camber values, Pilot Sport Cup will still operate effectively with more conservative factory settings for camber.

Caster should be set at the vehicle's most positive recommended setting.

In most cases, toe should be set at the middle of the vehicle's factory spec for each axle. However, depending on the competition situation (tight road course, more open, flowing road course, autocross, etc.) it is possible to materially affect the initial turn-in of the car and its stability in high-speed transitions through manipulation of the toe settings. Care must be taken because Pilot Sport Cup tires generate significant levels of lateral force even at very small slip angles; thus, large toe-out or toe-in settings can have big effects. In general, a good starting place is near zero toe (parallel) or the minimum value of the factory spec for toe-in at the front axle. At the rear axle, moderate toe-in (usually the minimum factory spec for toe-in) is not a bad place to start.

(end quote)

I am also curious about the statement: Pilot Sport Cup will still operate effectively with more conservative factory settings for camber. I assume this means effective yet not 100% optimal and implying uneven wear of tires.

Anyone know what is the factory camber setting on a '99 996 C2???

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Apr 11, 2005 3:24:12 AM

TT Surgeon: Senior; Loc: Long Island, NY , United States; Posts: 783, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 28, 2004; Reply to: Flying_Dutchman

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

I think mixing PSC with stock suspension is probably a waste of time Doc, like Carlos said, you would be wiser to invest in the RoW030 1st. That setup will give you awsome traction with your street tires!

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Apr 11, 2005 3:53:23 AM

911fan: Senior; Loc: usa; Posts: 554, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 20, 2005; Reply to: TT Surgeon

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

mmmm those tires are purrrdy.

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Apr 11, 2005 2:29:14 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12585, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: TT Surgeon

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

Quote:
C4S Surgeon said:
I think mixing PSC with stock suspension is probably a waste of time Doc, like Carlos said, you would be wiser to invest in the RoW030 1st. That setup will give you awsome traction with your street tires!

While I think that upgrading suspension makes ALOT of sense, I don't think street tires are adequate for hard driving at the track, no matter how good the suspension is. They simply can't stand up to it, unless you're only driving 7/10 max...

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Apr 13, 2005 6:33:25 AM

Flying_Dutchman: Pilot; Loc: European Union BE BXL , Belgium; Posts: 301, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 13, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

ROW M030 is the 30 mm lowered sports-suspension right?

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Apr 13, 2005 8:21:15 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21148, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: Flying_Dutchman

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

Dr Carrera, thats the X74 sport suspension. The M030 lowers -20mm up front and -10mm rear and is a better compromise for road confort and streeability, its still a significant improvement in handling and sportiness over the standard suspension and still has fair ground clearance but not as radical as the X74. The X74 is more equivalent to the GT3's suspension setup, the M030 is somewere in between.

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Apr 14, 2005 3:23:59 AM

TT Surgeon: Senior; Loc: Long Island, NY , United States; Posts: 783, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 28, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
C4S Surgeon said:
I think mixing PSC with stock suspension is probably a waste of time Doc, like Carlos said, you would be wiser to invest in the RoW030 1st. That setup will give you awsome traction with your street tires!

While I think that upgrading suspension makes ALOT of sense, I don't think street tires are adequate for hard driving at the track, no matter how good the suspension is. They simply can't stand up to it, unless you're only driving 7/10 max...

Grant, I think Doc Carrera was talking about using R compound PSC's with a bone stock suspension, not even 030. That would be a waste.

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Apr 14, 2005 4:19:40 AM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: TT Surgeon

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

aren't you worried about oil starvation pulling those high Gs with a wet sump?

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Apr 14, 2005 6:37:42 AM

Flying_Dutchman: Pilot; Loc: European Union BE BXL , Belgium; Posts: 301, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 13, 2003; Reply to: Moogle

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

Quote:
Moogle said:
aren't you worried about oil starvation pulling those high Gs with a wet sump?

To be honest initially I was not even aware of this

. I heard on another 911 forum as well that this is something to watch out for on 996 Carreras with Corsas or PSC. Yet strangely, there are people out there, including Porsche 'specialists' who even went until recommending me, "why wouldn't you go for real slicks straight away! That will give you awesome traction!".

Is the difference in G-force between street tires and PSC or Corsa that big???

Clearly, my only aim would be to ensure adequate traction and me having fun on track-days. At the last one I attended with street tires, it was a stressful experience to feel the rubber melting away

. Other than that I estimate to do not more than 3 or 4 track-days a year. For the remainder the car's is my daily driver. So I'm kinda puzzled right now.

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Apr 19, 2005 8:21:06 PM

Arrixok: Junior; Loc: Spain, Euskadi; Posts: 87, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 6, 2005; Reply to: Flying_Dutchman

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

how about lubrification with the semi-dry sump? I once read "it won't be a problem in regular street tires" , but these are not exactly regular. Dunno. I suppose it won't be a problem but...

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Apr 19, 2005 8:28:37 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12585, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Flying_Dutchman

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

The PSC's are street legal tires and combined with your street suspension will not generate enough G's to be a problem. If you had racing suspension and true Slicks, then it would be a problem on some tracks...

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Apr 21, 2005 8:38:38 PM

80924: Junior; Loc: Luxembourg , Luxembourg; Posts: 120, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 1, 2005; Reply to: Grant

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

If i would use those cup tires on a Gt3 mk1 must the setup of my suspension be changed?? It has the standard gt3 setup.

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Apr 21, 2005 8:40:39 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12585, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: 80924

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

Quote:
80924 said:
If i would use those cup tires on a Gt3 mk1 must the setup of my suspension be changed?? It has the standard gt3 setup.

I think more than stock negative camber would be an improvement (even a GT3 has only -1 degree max from factory, I think). The fact that a GT3 has a very stiff setup will help alot though (won't roll onto the sidewall as much in the corners).

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Apr 22, 2005 2:12:01 PM

gt3 racer: Newbie; Loc: Chicago, IL; Posts: 2, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 19, 2004; Reply to: Grant

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

Ran Cup tires on my 2002 4s beat the snot out of the engine. Way too many g's in the corners. I would look at the the oil gauge and watch it go from 5 to 1 in tight right handers. Got rid of the 4s. Do not show up at a dealer with R compound tires and an oil issue with your engine and expect then to be understanding. I am only talking about the M96 engine. There are some fixes for this. Saw a add-on pan extender from Brey-Krause to help with the issue. I don't know anyone who has used it.

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Apr 22, 2005 2:56:43 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12585, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: gt3 racer

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

Quote:
gt3 racer said:
Ran Cup tires on my 2002 4s beat the snot out of the engine. Way too many g's in the corners. I would look at the the oil gauge and watch it go from 5 to 1 in tight right handers. Got rid of the 4s. Do not show up at a dealer with R compound tires and an oil issue with your engine and expect then to be understanding. I am only talking about the M96 engine. There are some fixes for this. Saw a add-on pan extender from Brey-Krause to help with the issue. I don't know anyone who has used it.

That is really sad to hear

Porsche should be ashamed that a $90k car is not able to turn some laps without endangering the motor! All of the 911 cars before the 996 were capable of track work - Glad to see you have a GT3 now

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Apr 23, 2005 4:20:30 AM

Yargk: Pilot; Loc: SF Bay Area, CA, USA; Posts: 486, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

Quote:
Grant said:
Quote:
Moogle said:
just FYI,
PSCs are pretty scary in the rain

Yeah, they're not as bad as slicks, but standing water is to be avoided. By far the best track tire that works in the rain is the Toyo RA1. I love these, since they are SOOOO forgiving. You can really slide the car around on these, since they breakway so gently and with lots of feedback. Most track tires are pretty unfriendly once you exceed their grip. They don't come in perfect sizes for 18" 996 wheels (only make 275/35/18 for the rear). They're cheap too...

How do the toyos wear and can they be driven on the street? I'm looking for the best tire for the track that still works like a street tire in that you don't have to worry about too many heat cycles or chunks coming off and the like.

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Apr 25, 2005 6:21:29 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12585, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Yargk

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

Quote:
Yargk said:How do the toyos wear and can they be driven on the street? I'm looking for the best tire for the track that still works like a street tire in that you don't have to worry about too many heat cycles or chunks coming off and the like.

Toyo RA1's are by far the longest lasting of the DOT-R tires (at least double the MPSC's). They can go through ALOT of heat cycles. To avoid chunking, they recommend that you shave them to 1/2 of their original tread depth. This does not compromise wear too much but does compromise their performance in the wet.

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Apr 25, 2005 6:50:52 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12585, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Yargk

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

Keith - here's a little bit more info about shaving the RA1's:

http://features.evolutionm.net/article/evomfeatures/46

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Apr 25, 2005 11:25:45 PM

Yargk: Pilot; Loc: SF Bay Area, CA, USA; Posts: 486, Gallery; Registered on: May 18, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

Thanks for the info, they seem like a wonderful compromise for those wanting R grip, but not the pain of Rs. Now I have to figure out how to fit 275s in the front and 335s in the rear...

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May 5, 2005 8:12:53 PM

karlooz: Newbie; Loc: United States; Posts: 4, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 18, 2005; Reply to: Flying_Dutchman

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

that's only a problem when using slicks. not a problem when using r-compound tires.

jimB (from another board) raced his 996 w/ r-compounds (before he upgraded to the x51 package w/ upgraded oiling) and didn't have any problems.

Quote:
Dr. Carrera said:
Quote:
Moogle said:
aren't you worried about oil starvation pulling those high Gs with a wet sump?

To be honest initially I was not even aware of this . I heard on another 911 forum as well that this is something to watch out for on 996 Carreras with Corsas or PSC. Yet strangely, there are people out there, including Porsche 'specialists' who even went until recommending me, "why wouldn't you go for real slicks straight away! That will give you awesome traction!".

Is the difference in G-force between street tires and PSC or Corsa that big???

Clearly, my only aim would be to ensure adequate traction and me having fun on track-days. At the last one I attended with street tires, it was a stressful experience to feel the rubber melting away . Other than that I estimate to do not more than 3 or 4 track-days a year. For the remainder the car's is my daily driver. So I'm kinda puzzled right now.

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May 11, 2005 7:05:22 AM

Flying_Dutchman: Pilot; Loc: European Union BE BXL , Belgium; Posts: 301, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 13, 2003; Reply to: karlooz

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

I did my personal cost-benefit assessment on this question...In view of the necessary investment to benefit of R-compound tires I've decided to stick with my C2 in its current set-up with street-tires. I'll go for Michelin PS N1 to replace my Contis. I tought it would be better to go for a GT3 in the near future instead of upgrading a C2 which will ultimately still not be realy fit for track-use.

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May 11, 2005 2:34:03 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12585, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Flying_Dutchman

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

Quote:
Dr. Carrera said:
I did my personal cost-benefit assessment on this question...In view of the necessary investment to benefit of R-compound tires I've decided to stick with my C2 in its current set-up with street-tires. I'll go for Michelin PS N1 to replace my Contis. I tought it would be better to go for a GT3 in the near future instead of upgrading a C2 which will ultimately still not be realy fit for track-use.

Good decision - you'll love the GT3

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May 14, 2005 4:30:20 PM

Flying_Dutchman: Pilot; Loc: European Union BE BXL , Belgium; Posts: 301, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 13, 2003; Reply to: Grant

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

I know what you mean now Grant. I test-drove an MK I Clubsport yesterday. The GT3 is an absolutely fabulous car. I'm in love

. I wish I would have it for next weekend at the Spa Porsche Days.

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May 15, 2005 2:18:49 PM

aj996tt: Newbie; Loc: Richardson, TX, USA; Posts: 23, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2005; Reply to: Flying_Dutchman

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

Going to a GT3 is a good decision if you really want to push it at the track AND have a car that you can drive around town. The GT3 will beat you up a little more than your C2, but the pain is good. Another consideration, if price is a concern, is to get a pre-owned Turbo- yes, it's a heavy terd but there are some out there at good price points and you'll have a very fast, track capable car.

The oil starvation issue was improved somewhat with the mk2 996. But with the standard wet sump oiling system of the modular m96 Boxsters/911s and new 987/997s, I still wouldn't run R-compounds or slicks on any of these cars. I would, however, consider running a top-tier max performance tire, as you're doing. MPS is good, and also look at BFG KD-TA, Bridgestone S02/S02A/S03 and Yokohama AVS Sport.

Enjoy!

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May 16, 2005 4:23:15 PM

fantasma: Junior; Loc: Stockholm, Sweden , Sweden; Posts: 76, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2004; Reply to: karlooz

Re: CUP tires to track a regular 996

karlooz,

my car has the x51 powerkit but I didn't know about the upgraded oiling. Do you have any info on this? Does it mean that I can run r-compound tires without risking the engine?

Thanks in advance,

fantasma
996C2 X51 X74

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