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Re: 997 or 996 GT3
i'd personally prefer the GT3, but i'm a special case 
IMO it looks more modern, it is more special, the engine is the best N/A engine ever in a street 911...
BUT since -- according to your signature -- you already own (or have owned) various 996 models... maybe you should try out something new?
IMO it looks more modern, it is more special, the engine is the best N/A engine ever in a street 911...BUT since -- according to your signature -- you already own (or have owned) various 996 models... maybe you should try out something new?
Re: 997 or 996 GT3
The GT3 is a far superior car, IMHO. The dry sump engine alone is worth 4x as much, according to Porsche replacement pricing. And you get an adjustable suspension and LSD (which is not available in USA with 997S), 6-piston brakes, as well as more headroom with the sunroof delete. However, if you're not going to drive it hard, the 997S is a more comfortable cruiser. The GT3 will hold its value far better too...
Re: 997 or 996 GT3
Quote:
Grant said:
The GT3 is a far superior car, IMHO. The dry sump engine alone is worth 4x as much, according to Porsche replacement pricing. And you get an adjustable suspension and LSD (which is not available in USA with 997S), 6-piston brakes, as well as more headroom with the sunroof delete. However, if you're not going to drive it hard, the 997S is a more comfortable cruiser. The GT3 will hold its value far better too...
Grant, I agree that a dry sump lub engine is better ultimately, but only of you track the car on semi slick tyres don't you think.
My point is, for most drivers on open road, doesn't really make a difference.
Only during very strong lateral G force bends does a DSL engine car make a difference.
I am not very knowledgeable in that respect but that's what I've been told.
What do you think?
Shame that sport chassis with LSD is not available in the US for 997, that is essentially IMO an excellent compromise.
A mini GT3 with all the 997 goodies.
Apr 7, 2005 6:22:56 PM
- Outlaw_Hawk
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Re: 997 or 996 GT3
Quote:
Fanch said:
Grant, I agree that a dry sump lub engine is better ultimately, but only of you track the car on semi slick tyres don't you think.
My point is, for most drivers on open road, doesn't really make a difference.
Only during very strong lateral G force bends does a DSL engine car make a difference.
I am not very knowledgeable in that respect but that's what I've been told.
What do you think?
Fanch - I guess I'm just sentimental from the times that ALL 911 motors were dry sump (1965-1998). Maybe it's no problem, unless you use slicks, but I'd rather be over-prepared than under-prepared. There are many other interesting differences between the motors: like Titanium con-rods and 8,200rpm with the GT3
Also, a GT3 motor can be rebuilt (as with the GT3 tranny), but motor and tranny in 997 must be replaced when needed...
Re: 997 or 996 GT3
Quote:
dr_sam said:
Do I go for:
997 newlook 355hp 400nm PSM 0-60 4.8s top speed 185m
or
996 GT3 oldlook 381hp 385 nm no PSM 0-60 4.5s top speed 190m AND a 16% discount on 2004 model
now you choose
It says you own 2 996's already. If I had 2 996's it wouldn't be a very difficult decision. Let's see buying a third 996 or the new 997. Easy one.
Re: 997 or 996 GT3
Quote:
Stradale said:Quote:
dr_sam said:
Do I go for:
997 newlook 355hp 400nm PSM 0-60 4.8s top speed 185m
or
996 GT3 oldlook 381hp 385 nm no PSM 0-60 4.5s top speed 190m AND a 16% discount on 2004 model
now you choose
It says you own 2 996's already. If I had 2 996's it wouldn't be a very difficult decision. Let's see buying a third 996 or the new 997. Easy one.
Whoops! You own 3 996's.
Re: 997 or 996 GT3
As "ugly" as we think the 996 is, I think the 996 is the more pure design.
It's Harm Lagay's vision on how the 911 should look in the 21st century without any distortion or input from consumers.
The distortion I see with the 997 is that it looks like what everyone on this forum wanted rather than what the artist really wanted - if you know what I mean. Focus groups told Porsche that people would like to see the old style lights back, the flared fenders etc. But when Ferry first designed the 911 back in '63 a focus group didnt tell him how to design it and in fact most people hated the "tub" design of the 911.
That's why to me the 996 is the purer vision - taste aside, or ugliness aside.
It is a shame that we are relyng on focus groups to design our cars in the 21st century.
If it were me, I would stick with the 996. It has the better motor and it will hold its value better than the 997. The 997 is a "washed down" version of a 911.
Most of the switchgear is Audi supplied and it looks it too.
The interior of the 996 is at least unique, the 997's looks like Audi's.
Anyways its your choice, I know they are both great cars, but I think the 996 is the purer choice, IMO.
It's Harm Lagay's vision on how the 911 should look in the 21st century without any distortion or input from consumers.
The distortion I see with the 997 is that it looks like what everyone on this forum wanted rather than what the artist really wanted - if you know what I mean. Focus groups told Porsche that people would like to see the old style lights back, the flared fenders etc. But when Ferry first designed the 911 back in '63 a focus group didnt tell him how to design it and in fact most people hated the "tub" design of the 911.
That's why to me the 996 is the purer vision - taste aside, or ugliness aside.
It is a shame that we are relyng on focus groups to design our cars in the 21st century.
If it were me, I would stick with the 996. It has the better motor and it will hold its value better than the 997. The 997 is a "washed down" version of a 911.
Most of the switchgear is Audi supplied and it looks it too.
The interior of the 996 is at least unique, the 997's looks like Audi's.
Anyways its your choice, I know they are both great cars, but I think the 996 is the purer choice, IMO.
Re: 997 or 996 GT3
OK look at it this way: one is an old-renewed-new look and has a new engine which I like very much and the other is A GT3 and for me it is THE 911 ( but I dont like the NO PSM point ). Both cars have almost the same performance and almost the same price ( after the big discount I got ). I like the interior of the 996 more ( as you see I owned 3 ). Waiting for the new 997 GT3, I would rather wait for the new turbo.
Pity you don't understand market research
You're relying on a lot of misperception if you think focus groups design cars. That's categorically not the case.
Consumers provide input for sure but any company with some brain cells does not act on that directly without understanding what they meant and how it might be interpreted.
Second the cost of designing a car to meet market demands is so high you HAVE to have input from the people who will ultimately buy the car. (God knows who the Aztec buyers were...)
Clinics are where consumers see the cars for real and then score the designs based on a wide number of criteria, that helps designers pick and choose which way to go.
Most designers today accept that the consumer should have input to ensure the car will sell well. If not you lose your job...
Ferry was lucky: car development cost peanuts back in the 60's - no worries about crash protection back then, no global standards, no $billion development costs - today with more and more constraints and a more savvy global market you can't NOT include the consumer. But it's also a lot more sophisticated than the focus groups you imagine...
Interestingly the company has said that the 997 is a return to a "purer" design for the 911, one that's closer to Ferry's original. Yet you believe the 996 is purer. Which one do most buyers consider to be the purer I wonder?
Consumers provide input for sure but any company with some brain cells does not act on that directly without understanding what they meant and how it might be interpreted.
Second the cost of designing a car to meet market demands is so high you HAVE to have input from the people who will ultimately buy the car. (God knows who the Aztec buyers were...)
Clinics are where consumers see the cars for real and then score the designs based on a wide number of criteria, that helps designers pick and choose which way to go.
Most designers today accept that the consumer should have input to ensure the car will sell well. If not you lose your job...
Ferry was lucky: car development cost peanuts back in the 60's - no worries about crash protection back then, no global standards, no $billion development costs - today with more and more constraints and a more savvy global market you can't NOT include the consumer. But it's also a lot more sophisticated than the focus groups you imagine...
Interestingly the company has said that the 997 is a return to a "purer" design for the 911, one that's closer to Ferry's original. Yet you believe the 996 is purer. Which one do most buyers consider to be the purer I wonder?
Apr 7, 2005 9:02:41 PM
- Holminator
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Re: 997 or 996 GT3
I like what I have! I've been down this road before. The 997 is far more stable in .9-g turns! The 997 is the only 911er I have ever liked! Eh, maybe I'm biased. 
What can I do? 
There's more to performance driving than raw horsepower (umm, but raw horsepower does help 
).
What can I do? There's more to performance driving than raw horsepower (umm, but raw horsepower does help ).
Apr 7, 2005 10:44:33 PM
- davew (cincy)
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- Reply to: dr_sam
Re: 997 or 996 GT3
It all depends on what you're looking for. Personally, I'd do the GT3 without a doubt - but I don't mind engine noise, stiff ride, or the lack of computerized stability assistance. I have a 4-door for foul weather days, carting the kids, or client lunches - so I'd use the GT3 on clear days when I can open her up a bit. I can attest that, even on public roads (operating within a "range" of reason) the difference in the two vehicles - especially in terms of fun and feel - is obvious.
I do prefer the appearance and interior of the 997, and I'm not fond of the rear wing on the GT3, but performance far outweighs any of that to me. I noticed recently that the German pronunciation of "Porsche GT3," when spoken quickly sounds like "Porsche get it right." And I am inclined to agree.
my .02
Does the 04 GT3 have a previous owner, or demo experience? If so, I recommend a thorough inspection.
I do prefer the appearance and interior of the 997, and I'm not fond of the rear wing on the GT3, but performance far outweighs any of that to me. I noticed recently that the German pronunciation of "Porsche GT3," when spoken quickly sounds like "Porsche get it right." And I am inclined to agree.
my .02
Does the 04 GT3 have a previous owner, or demo experience? If so, I recommend a thorough inspection.
Apr 8, 2005 12:02:34 AM
- sergini
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Apr 8, 2005 1:01:38 AM
- W8MM
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Re: 997 or 996 GT3
GT3 may be rough for daily driving.
i have GT3 seats, rollbar, harness, fire extinguisher in mine, basically track prepped. its pretty stiff on the road and really makes one very nervous and anxious while driving it.
when i get out of the GT3 after 4-5 hours and get into my M3, it feels like a limo. GT3 isn't a great daily car, ground clearance is also an issue.
i have GT3 seats, rollbar, harness, fire extinguisher in mine, basically track prepped. its pretty stiff on the road and really makes one very nervous and anxious while driving it.
when i get out of the GT3 after 4-5 hours and get into my M3, it feels like a limo. GT3 isn't a great daily car, ground clearance is also an issue.
Apr 8, 2005 2:30:49 PM
- davew (cincy)
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Re: 997 or 996 GT3
Where does the CGT stand on this subject (cornering stability)? I've never driven one, but I understand that cornering (and some other scenarios) is very involved with that vehicle - way more so than with the GT3. Not to knock the CGT platform - stability is simply one variable in the overall formula. And the requirement of some finesse can add to the experience - in the right application. Plus, with a little care, you can start out cautiously, and grow with the car as time goes on...
Basically, I see the GT3 as an occasional dive - not just for weekends, evenings, or track days - but certainly a full day of in-town use. I can see that 4 - 5 continuous cross-country hours in it would make a BMW feel like a limo...
I nearly bought one a while back. I test drove it immediately after a long run in the 997S, and a run in the 996TT a couple days before - and I was very surprised at how much I liked it. I was cynical going in, because I'm not a fan of the exterior appearance, but I was dreaming about it for the next couple nights (and days). The power, the stiff handling, the symphony, and the N/A response really got to me.
Basically, I see the GT3 as an occasional dive - not just for weekends, evenings, or track days - but certainly a full day of in-town use. I can see that 4 - 5 continuous cross-country hours in it would make a BMW feel like a limo...
I nearly bought one a while back. I test drove it immediately after a long run in the 997S, and a run in the 996TT a couple days before - and I was very surprised at how much I liked it. I was cynical going in, because I'm not a fan of the exterior appearance, but I was dreaming about it for the next couple nights (and days). The power, the stiff handling, the symphony, and the N/A response really got to me.
Re: 997 or 996 GT3
Quote:
RR4 said:
If it were me, I would stick with the 996. It has the better motor and it will hold its value better than the 997.
In the US 996 values have dropped significantly. I could give you a number of dealers that have brand GT3's sitting on the floor for months that they are willing to deal on. For at least the next few years the 997 will definately hold it's value better. For future value who knows but I don't see the 996 all of a sudden becoming a cult favorite.
Re: 997 or 996 GT3
Pure Porsche, tough ride track day fan = GT3
Grand tourer plus "some fun sometimes" = 997S
I own a MKII GT3 and had a 997S recently as a replacement while my exhaust has been "adjusted" and I was simply disappointed. The car is good but does not offer pure Porsche emotions. And the interior is... unbelievably ugly - Cayenne style.
Grand tourer plus "some fun sometimes" = 997S
I own a MKII GT3 and had a 997S recently as a replacement while my exhaust has been "adjusted" and I was simply disappointed. The car is good but does not offer pure Porsche emotions. And the interior is... unbelievably ugly - Cayenne style.
Apr 8, 2005 7:29:56 PM
- dr_sam
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Re: 997 or 996 GT3
I owned two 996TT and I liked it very much and I am waiting for the new 997TT and I dont want to buy something less in performance . Also the resale value of the GT3 is not as good as the 997s. But the pleasure and driving enjoyment is in the GT3 .
btw is it true that the 997s will have an upgraded engine with 381HP and 422 nm 
.
and I am waiting for the new 997TT and I dont want to buy something less in performance . Also the resale value of the GT3 is not as good as the 997s. But the pleasure and driving enjoyment is in the GT3 . btw is it true that the 997s will have an upgraded engine with 381HP and 422 nm .
Re: Pity you don't understand market research
Quote:
Le Chef said:
Interestingly the company has said that the 997 is a return to a "purer" design for the 911, one that's closer to Ferry's original. Yet you believe the 996 is purer. Which one do most buyers consider to be the purer I wonder?
My 2 cents worth on this question:
- The 997 is the "purer Porsche 911", because a deliberate attempt was made to reincorporate traditional key design elements of previous-generation 911 models.
- The 996 was the "purer interpretation of a modern sports car design" because, apart from retaining the basic 911 body shape, the designers started with a clean sheet and made fewer concessions to tradition.
I think opinions are probably divided on which of these two directions was really the "purer" one?
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