Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT - Page2

Apr 1, 2005 9:50:10 PM

Ryan in SD: Senior; Loc: San Diego; Posts: 604, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2004; Reply to: ADias

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

ADias, dont forget though how fun it is to thrash cars, you should see the tires on my old 633. The inside and outside are bald (theres no "corner") and no, its not under inflated

The only problem now though is that I get understeer from no grip upfront

I think I totally killed them before theire "guaranteed 60K mi."

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Apr 1, 2005 10:03:13 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Ryan in SD

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Quote:
Ryan in SD said:
ADias, dont forget though how fun it is to thrash cars, you should see the tires on my old 633.

Sure... thrashing is easy, high-performance smoothness is hard...

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Apr 2, 2005 6:18:22 AM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: ADias

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
Ryan in SD said:
ADias, dont forget though how fun it is to thrash cars, you should see the tires on my old 633.

Sure... thrashing is easy, high-performance smoothness is hard...

sliding the CGT is an absolutely blast. everyone knows it isn't the fastest way to drive, but many would agree it is the most fun. as for rohrl not sliding and being easy on tires, i'm guess you didn't see the awesome video of him sliding it around some track with a bunch of grass in the middle. the video was in german i think. i'll try to find it for you. that said, notice the big a$$ grin on rohrl face while he does it an i think you'll agree he thinks sliding around is a heck of a lot of fun too. as well, you try doing it in a hyper fast CGT and you'll soon agree it ain't as easy as you think. everything happens MUCH quicker in this car and that throttle is so very sensitive that there is plenty of skill in getting (and keeping) it loose without running into trouble (ie: giving too much). as well, your hands need to be much quicker than you may be used to on other cars because again everything happens much quicker in this car.

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Apr 3, 2005 3:56:22 AM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: ADias

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Walter Rohrl claimed around 10,000km (6k miles) for the tires on the CGT, sounds way too much but would be interesting to see if true...

It does not surprise me as Rorhl is a very smooth driver. He probably saves on break pads too. He is not a "binary" full on/full off throttle/break pedal pusher. A smooth driver breaks less, slides less, wears less, and... gets there first w/ far less splash. The wannabee pilot is
typically hard driven, breaks hard, wears tires, makes more noise, and, at the end arrives to the finish line behind.

i wonder if watching this video would change your mind:

http://videos.eserver.com/Carrera_GT.avi

recognize the driver with the big smile smoking hell out of the tires? betcha those didn't last 6k miles.

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Apr 3, 2005 7:06:04 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Sure, sure... in making the video they play to the splash audience. The shots I saw of Rorhl though, showed a smooth driver not a frenetic slide correcting playboy.

To each his own... I do know a lot of drivers who like the splashy slide, but as Jackie Stewart used to say - "you are not moving forward while moving sideways." Since I know it is a lot tougher to be smooth, I guess the temptation to be splashy is all the greater.

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Apr 3, 2005 10:05:34 AM

Ryan in SD: Senior; Loc: San Diego; Posts: 604, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2004; Reply to: ADias

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Cant you appreciate both Adias? Its almost like your belittling fun drifting and hooligan driving. I swear, if they were to make another "Ferris buller's day off" movie you would be cast as Cameron Frye.

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Apr 3, 2005 3:18:35 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: ADias

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Quote:
ADias said:
Sure, sure... in making the video they play to the splash audience. The shots I saw of Rorhl though, showed a smooth driver not a frenetic slide correcting playboy./quote]

LOL, Rohrl did ALL the driving in that video, was sliding his a$$ off, and was smiling pretty huge while doing it! And, I'm guessing you didn't see this video http://videos.eserver.com/TopGear_CarreraGT.wmv which shows a very skilled driver having a heck of a lot of difficulties handling the a$$ end. Anyone who thinks it's easy to drive a CGT like that ("splashy" or whatever), hasn't tried it yet - or is Rohrl! IMO, there is more skill involved in the hand and accelerator work necessary to drive like that than to drive smoothly - even if the later is the faster (and more boring) way around a track.

BTW, and re-read the thread and see how we got here. Still want to argue after seeing that video that tires last a lot longer in Rohrl's hands because he only drives smooth?

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Apr 3, 2005 9:00:56 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Ryan in SD

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Quote:
Ryan in SD said:
Cant you appreciate both Adias? Its almost like your belittling fun drifting and hooligan driving. I swear, if they were to make another "Ferris buller's day off" movie you would be cast as Cameron Frye.

I did not say it is not fun... I just have a difference of opinion w/ Ben regarding difficulty (to a point).

For Ben: I think we agree that power slides will hasten tire wear

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Apr 3, 2005 11:58:09 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: ADias

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
Ryan in SD said:
Cant you appreciate both Adias? Its almost like your belittling fun drifting and hooligan driving. I swear, if they were to make another "Ferris buller's day off" movie you would be cast as Cameron Frye.

I did not say it is not fun... I just have a difference of opinion w/ Ben regarding difficulty (to a point).

For Ben: I think we agree that power slides will hasten tire wear

since you drive an AWD 911 which has a computer to decide how much power goes to the front, i can certainly understand your inability to understand the skill required to drive a car without such aid. however, get to where you can do in a c2 what your c4's computer does for you, and i think you will agree there is more skill involved in sideways driving (ie: driving beyond grip limits).

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Apr 4, 2005 12:38:38 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Ben... I do not know your exact age, but I suspect I slipped and slided along hundreds of miles of european backroads well before you ever sat behind a car wheel.

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Apr 4, 2005 12:44:50 AM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: ADias

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Quote:
ADias said:
Ben... I do not know your exact age, but I suspect I slipped and slided along hundreds of miles of european backroads well before you ever sat behind a car wheel.

age doesn't necessarily = experience or skill. for many, 40 years experience means repeating a years worth 39 times

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Apr 4, 2005 12:58:04 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Quote:
ben, lj said:
Quote:
ADias said:
Ben... I do not know your exact age, but I suspect I slipped and slided along hundreds of miles of european backroads well before you ever sat behind a car wheel.

age doesn't necessarily = experience or skill. for many, 40 years experience means repeating a years worth 39 times

It was not for me to proclaim experience and not for you to devalue age's lessons. A bit unrespectful and arrogant don't you think?

This is silly and going on for too long... but to end it on my end: I never said it does not take skill to power slide a car. It does, and watch out, because even with all your talent, if you lose a CGT (especially with PSM off - your car has a grip control too

) you can be toast - and we do not want that. I said though, that it takes more talent to drive ultra smooth and fast - especially if you do not have PSM and AWD - that is an absolute fact.

Enjoy your power slides in good health and w/ good tires.

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Apr 4, 2005 1:36:13 AM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: ADias

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
ben, lj said:
Quote:
ADias said:
Ben... I do not know your exact age, but I suspect I slipped and slided along hundreds of miles of european backroads well before you ever sat behind a car wheel.

age doesn't necessarily = experience or skill. for many, 40 years experience means repeating a years worth 39 times

It was not for me to proclaim experience and not for you to devalue age's lessons. A bit unrespectful and arrogant don't you think?

i think i should have just told you from the start i felt like you were slamming me for needing tires at 2100 miles with your response to carlos's "Walter Rohrl claimed around 10,000km (6k miles) for the tires on the CGT, sounds way too much but would be interesting to see if true...":

you:
"He is not a 'binary' full on/full off throttle/break pedal pusher. A smooth driver breaks less, slides less, wears less, and... gets there first w/ far less splash. The wannabee pilot is typically hard driven, breaks hard, wears tires, makes more noise, and, at the end arrives to the finish line behind."

instead, i proceeded to show video evidence that rohrl does in fact slide plenty and wear out tires - with a big grin on his face to refute your erroneous statement of fact. and, i can guarantee you there are a lot more people that can drive a CGT around a track just below the grip limits than can exceed the limits on it and stay out of the weeds.

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Apr 6, 2005 4:34:18 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: ADias

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Quote:
ADias said:
Sure, sure... in making the video they play to the splash audience. The shots I saw of Rorhl though, showed a smooth driver not a frenetic slide correcting playboy.

To each his own... I do know a lot of drivers who like the splashy slide, but as Jackie Stewart used to say - "you are not moving forward while moving sideways." Since I know it is a lot tougher to be smooth, I guess the temptation to be splashy is all the greater.

Don't tell Jackies comment to a rally driver!

Guys, I'd say you are both talking about the same thing, just coming from two very different directions.

Röhrl is reputed as one, if not THE, most un-spectacular driver behind the wheel. He DOES know how to drive fast and in fact is one of the very few persons who was among the most competitive drivers in road and rally racing!

There was a comparison of Röhrl and Klaus ludwig (several-time DTM champion) back in the 70ies where Röhrl performed brilliantly not only on the rally track but also on the road circuit (in fact both times faster than Ludwig)!

Adias, I agree with you - the clean way to drive is the fastest on a road circuit and remaining below the threshold of excessive tire slippage is the tricky part - on the other hand road racers DO slide the car even if it doesn't look like this.

Getting a car into a drift, and this really depends on the car's character, is fun on the one hand and requires a skilled driver on the other. Needless to say I wouldn't want to limit racing on this solely (drifting challenge)!

So chill out and enjoy your car!

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Apr 7, 2005 12:34:32 AM

Ray G: Newbie; Loc: Seattle, USA; Posts: 46, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 16, 2003; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Quote:
W8MM said:...
The dealer just called me to ask about my insistence that they move the rear sway-bar setting to the middle hole from the stiff hole, as I wanted......
Mea culpa.

Hi W8MM,

The dealer might be wrong. According to the CGT technical lit I have (don't ask how I got it), the rear sway bar is set for max stiffness from the factory. I know that sounds strange because they usually go for understeer for safety reasons.

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Apr 7, 2005 1:04:06 AM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: Ray G

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Quote:
Ray G said:
Quote:
W8MM said:...
The dealer just called me to ask about my insistence that they move the rear sway-bar setting to the middle hole from the stiff hole, as I wanted......
Mea culpa.

Hi W8MM,

The dealer might be wrong. According to the CGT technical lit I have (don't ask how I got it), the rear sway bar is set for max stiffness from the factory. I know that sounds strange because they usually go for understeer for safety reasons.

mine is in the middle and i personally inspected that les's brand new CGT came set to the middle too. i'm not sure when porsche wised up and started shipping US models in the middle because the full stiff should only be used on the track IMO (aggressive cornering on uneven surfaces cause a loss of grip on full stiff). check yours ray. you can see it visually in the engine compartment without removing anything. look on the driver's side toward the rear tail light. it's easier to stick your hand in there and find the nut on the end of the bar. you can then take your other fingers to find the hole on each side of the nut. (i have a feeling i'm gonna get some jokes based on the description!).

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Apr 7, 2005 1:50:11 AM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3995, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: Ray G

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Quote:
Ray G said:
Hi W8MM,

The dealer might be wrong. According to the CGT technical lit I have (don't ask how I got it), the rear sway bar is set for max stiffness from the factory. I know that sounds strange because they usually go for understeer for safety reasons.

Hi Ray,

Yeah, I have the same book, too. It was given to me when I visited the PCNA Atlanta Tech Training Center by the CGT tech trainers. That's where I originally got the idea that it was set to the stiffest roll setting. I was prepared to see two unfilled holes in the tip of the bar, and that is what I thought I saw. Preconceived notion!

In reality, when the dealer took off the carbon fiber shroud so they could work on that part of the car, it was found to be already in the middle hole. Honest to gosh!

Ben and Les's cars were also set to the middle hole as delivered. Ben says it's best to feel for the hole position instead of look for it. In my case, I have to agree, since I'm 55 and am forced by old age to wear corrective lenses for my presbyopia. When I look through the top of the lenses as I bend way over into the engine compartment, I can't see very well up close. I'd need to invert my glasses on my nose, or buy top/bottom tri-focal pilot's glasses to see this correctly without disassembling the CF shroud panel.

Geezer vision, I guess

Oops, I should have read Ben's post before I typed this one

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Apr 7, 2005 3:37:14 AM

Ray G: Newbie; Loc: Seattle, USA; Posts: 46, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 16, 2003; Reply to: W8MM

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Mike and Ben, you guys are right - I went out in the garage and checked my car - the roll bar is attached to the middle hole, as you said. I guess P changed their minds.

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Apr 9, 2005 4:23:24 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: ADias

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
ben, lj said:
Quote:
ADias said:
Ben... I do not know your exact age, but I suspect I slipped and slided along hundreds of miles of european backroads well before you ever sat behind a car wheel.

age doesn't necessarily = experience or skill. for many, 40 years experience means repeating a years worth 39 times

It was not for me to proclaim experience and not for you to devalue age's lessons. A bit unrespectful and arrogant don't you think?

This is silly and going on for too long... but to end it on my end: I never said it does not take skill to power slide a car. It does, and watch out, because even with all your talent, if you lose a CGT (especially with PSM off - your car has a grip control too ) you can be toast - and we do not want that. I said though, that it takes more talent to drive ultra smooth and fast - especially if you do not have PSM and AWD - that is an absolute fact.

Enjoy your power slides in good health and w/ good tires.

adias, i thought you might enjoy this:

http://ae86levin.free.fr/ueo_style-1.wmv

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Apr 9, 2005 8:03:33 PM

Ryan in SD: Senior; Loc: San Diego; Posts: 604, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2004; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Embarrassment of Pre-Conceived Notions -- CGT

HOLY GOD that video is awesome, I just got the "drift bible" on CD. Very cool stuff. I suggest you guys also watch that video too. unreal car control.

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