Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: What a disgrace! - Page1

Apr 6, 2003 9:10:34 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002

What a disgrace!

I read in the Figaro which is a very serious newspaper in France, in the economics pages that Ferrari as a company made half the benefits in 2002 compared to 2001 because Montezemolo literally gave himself a 20 millions Euros bonus!!! And a 3 millions Euros bonus to Jean Todt, this represents half of the company's benefits!!!
I simply could not believe it!
This is absulety outrageous.
And the same guy wants to do the company's IPO, what a disgrace!!!
Fanch.

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Apr 12, 2003 7:44:52 AM

floren: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 137, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2003; Reply to: Futch

Re: What a disgrace!

that sounds very interesting.

where did you say hav you read that?
could you send me a link to that articel?

best greetings, floren

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Apr 12, 2003 8:02:26 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: floren

Re: What a disgrace!

It was a small article in the Figaro (economics pqges) which is a big newspaper in France, can't remember which date though sorry but getting hold of Ferrari's results shouldn't be too difficult, I'll look into it and confirm the statement.
Fanch.

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Apr 12, 2003 4:40:34 PM

floren: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 137, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2003; Reply to: Futch

Re: What a disgrace!

thanks!

i look forward to read that statement, also because i plan to write an articel on him.

thanks in advance!

floren

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Apr 13, 2003 1:26:29 PM

Rossi: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Home , Germany; Posts: 12681, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: floren

Re: What a disgrace!

Hi Floren,

don't know, if you understand German, but if so, here is the article taken from the German daily newspaper "Die Welt":

http://www.welt.de/data/2003/03/21/55616.html?search=montezemolo&searchHILI=1

It's from March, 21st and says that Ferrari's benefits for 2002 dropped by 54 percent to a 21.6 million Euro (2001: 47 millions).
Montezemolo's bonus for 2002 was 18.2 million Euro, Todt's was 3 millions.
I think it's a shame, no matter how good a top manager may be.

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Apr 13, 2003 10:57:13 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: Rossi

Re: What a disgrace!

Thanks Rossi,
Floren, sorry, can't find that article from Le Figaro but it was in french anyway, so not much help.
But the article from Die Welt shows you that this is very unfortunately true.
Not worthy of a good CEO IMO.
"Hey my name is Montezemolo, I try to look cool, I have long hair, everything good that happened to Ferrari in the last 8 years is thanks to me, and only me, so I'll give myself a 18.2 Millions Euros this year as a bonus, oh what a coincidence, this is just before MY company plans an IPO, oh, and this is just below half of what the compamy made so it's ok, plus I gave 3 millions to Todt, so everybody's happy..."
I say OUT!!! I wonder what Fiat bosses have to say about that???
Fanch.

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Apr 14, 2003 6:02:35 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: What a disgrace!

Quote:
"Hey my name is Montezemolo, I try to look cool, I have long hair, everything good that happened to Ferrari in the last 8 years is thanks to me, and only me, so I'll give myself a 18.2 Millions Euros this year as a bonus, oh what a coincidence, this is just before MY company plans an IPO, oh, and this is just below half of what the compamy made so it's ok, plus I gave 3 millions to Todt, so everybody's happy..."

And this isn't true?

However if Ferrari wants to stay in the business, they have to do two things:

1. offer an entry-level Ferrari at a price tag of around 85000 EUR.
2. substantially raise production figures.

They can't stay alive just from enjoying some money they get from Fiat, not to forget about the excessive cost of F1 racing.

I know that the idea of an entry-level Ferrari isn't much appreciated by true Ferraristi but I think this is the only way Ferrari can stay alive. They need to build ONE high volume vehicle to be able to earn serious money.
I don't think that Ferrari can stay alive with building Enzos.

An entry-level Ferrari would be a better thing than Ferrari being bought out by General Motors, Mercedes or any other company.

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Apr 14, 2003 7:48:12 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: What a disgrace!

Ferrari has NEVER made money with their road cars, all the money they make comes from F1.
Fanch.
PS: And they voluntarily limit their production to maintain the exclusivity. Al lot of the process of building the cars is done by hand. It wouls mean HUGE capex to modify the construction process.
They could start with say an 18.2 Millions Euros investment

Oh, sorry, I forgot, that's for their president's sailing yacht

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Apr 14, 2003 8:13:49 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: What a disgrace!

Quote:
Ferrari has NEVER made money with their road cars, all the money they make comes from F1.

Al lot of the process of building the cars is done by hand. It wouls mean HUGE capex to modify the construction process.

Ferrari makes money with the Formula One? How come? I read somewhere that they spend over 200 Mio. a year for development, racing cost, etc.. Spending means minus not plus, right? Or did I loose my understanding for math?

Handmade isn't always good, especially regarding cars. I talked to a Porsche engineer a while ago and he told me that quality has improved substantially since they automated certain production processes.
I still think that a certain "mass production" of an "entry level" Ferrari is the only chance for Ferrari to survive.

Just my two cents on the whole thing...

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Apr 14, 2003 8:33:16 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: What a disgrace!

Christian,
Ferrari makes money with sponsorship.
You'd be amazed just by the amount of the Shell sponsorship, and the profits come from F1 only.
Even a tiny sticker on the mirror costs millions!!!
I agree with you, an entry level Ferrari could be a goof thing, something along the line of 911 pricing, but that market is extremely competitive already.
Ferrari has enough to worry about between:
- a Crap season start
- The Murcielago and Vanquish that are stealing sales from the 575, remember, years ago, the 550 did not have competitors (ok, maybe the Diablo but the Murci is much better car, we all know it)
- The Gallardo, the 996 Turbo, the 996 GT3, shall I even dare say the 996 Carrera, the SL55AMG, all those cars are serious contenders that threaten sales of 360 and 360 spider.
- As for the 456, sales have become almost non existant since a few years now (even our S600 outruns a Ferrari V12

) and its replacement is due shortly.
It is only because Ferrari does not intend to make money with their production cars that they can have the luxury to limit production.
Something that might have to change if the company goes public, investors like pretty red cars but they prefer raising stock prices

I am quite convinced that if Porsche limited their production to 4000 cars, they'd be very successful with long waiting lists

Fanch.
PS: Don't get me wrong though, I love those little red cars too!!!

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Apr 14, 2003 11:49:22 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: What a disgrace!

Quote:
Christian,
Ferrari makes money with sponsorship.
You'd be amazed just by the amount of the Shell sponsorship, and the profits come from F1 only.

I hate it to be a smarta** but how does Ferrari manage to get dozens of millions and more sponsorship per year? Sorry but this doesn't sound right. Not even Shell can be that dumb.

Do you have any official numbers from Ferrari?

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Apr 15, 2003 7:05:23 AM

floren: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 137, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: What a disgrace!

gey guys,

t talked to several serious dealers i know personally about that theme.
all of them said it would be the end of the company if they would do their own boxter, so to say.
they will survive that is for sure. and for the wild animals that sheer for raising stock values they bought maserati. a company that has the potential to push over 20.000 cars into the world market every year. they keep ferrari super exclusive, they have maserati to fight porsche and satisfy their investors.
and a quite interesting rumor is this; volkswagen is going to buy ferrari. and ferrari is going to buy alfa romeo with the money from wolfsburg. they would stay super-autarc (not like lambo, and no ferrari-engine would ever find it's way into the new pheaton). so ferrari would be the most extreme, the most exclusive and the most widespread sportscar company in the world. because with the alfa range they would fight against the boxter, the TT and stuff like that.
http://www.ferrariownersclub.co.uk/happenings/2002/december/alfa.asp

and, BTW, they earned a lot of money with the enzo:
http://www.ferrariownersclub.co.uk/happenings/2002/september/enzo.asp
http://www.ferrariownersclub.co.uk/happenings/2002/october/extra_enzos.asp

wish you all a succesfull day!

best, floren

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Apr 15, 2003 8:29:59 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: What a disgrace!

Christian,
You're not a smarta.. at all my friend

, I know people who work for Shell, so I'll get the numbers, I'll also get the numbers for the Mobil sponsorship of the McLaren team (that'll be easier to get

) and hopefully get the price per centimeter square of advertising on the cars.
And Floren, Yes, Ferrari made money with the Enzo, well yes and no, because 20 millions Euros profit is really nothing and anyway, that money is in the CEO's pocket today so....

Fanch.

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Apr 15, 2003 8:36:07 AM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: floren

Re: What a disgrace!

i completely agree. offering an entry-level ferrari would be the end for the legend. trying to establish maserati in this price segment is IMO the correct way. we'll see at the end of the day, if the "raising production above all" concept works out for porsche in comparison.

let's not forget that the ferrari heritage enables them to make lots of money with licensing. ferrari sunglasses, ferrari watches, ferrari clothing, ferrari memorabilia, even (planned) ferrari theme parks... etc...

ferrari survived any economic crisis, 20 years of not winning in the F1... they are special, they are different. and di montezemolo is the keeper of this legend.

regarding any take over plans: why not? is porsche "independent"? IMO they are not. they share the cayenne platform with the touareg. the shares are in the hands of some (partly unknown) investors. i really do not care. IMO it would be better if porsche would officially belong to some major car company and could focus on building pure sports cars. same with ferrari.

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Apr 15, 2003 9:09:51 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: What a disgrace!

Unfortunately, Maserati is not doing that well these days.
Bad reviews in the press (UK at least), and fierce competition in that segment have canned the coupe and spyder.
Sad cause it's a good car I think, just not as good as the competition,
and their production is still very low.
It will be a tough hit for Fiat to get rid of Ferrari, Maserati AND Alfa as well.
Fanch.

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Apr 15, 2003 9:14:51 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: Futch

West deal.

It's harder than I thought to get some numbers,
I got from a trustworthy source that the West sponsorship deal exceeds $50 Millions dollars per year for Mclaren.
Ferrari is meant to get more from its tobacco brand ( I think it's Marlboro)
I wouldn't be surprised if the Oil companies deals are substantially higher than that for both teams.
F1 teams make 85% of their money through sponsors, the rest comes from TV rights and small prices from the FIA.
Fanch.

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Apr 15, 2003 9:23:05 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: What a disgrace!

Di Montezemolo is the keeper of nothing, he's a smart man who knows his company might go public soon so he cashes in while he can.
If Montezemolo goes tomorrow, it changes NOTHING to the legend that Ferrari is today.
Enzo built that legend himself, and it is kept alive with people like Pininfarina, Todt, Schumacher, Brawn, Villineuve senior, Ykxx (spelling?) etc.
Motezomolo is just a manager, a good one who has made important decisions at the right time and right place but still, just a manager.
I still think cutting production to 4000 plus is good for exclusivity but it doesn't tell you how the company's doing.
Ferrari survived crisis thanks to Fiat, times are different now...
It might be the other way round

Fanch.

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Apr 15, 2003 10:10:19 AM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: What a disgrace!

well you are right that maserati is not doing well. i wouldn't buy their cars either. but in theory the managment strategy was and is right IMO. if the cars are not good... well this is another story. if an entry-level ferrari wouldn't be a fine car, it would also be bad.

Quote:
Di Montezemolo is the keeper of nothing, he's a smart man who knows his company might go public soon so he cashes in while he can.
If Montezemolo goes tomorrow, it changes NOTHING to the legend that Ferrari is today.

i do not agree with this. luca is smart, no doubt. but if wiedeking would have been in charge the last 10 years at ferrari he would IMO have risen the production numbers. and what would have been the result? dropping resale value, no pure image any more. the badge's image is it's main value. and di montezemolo was not following the easy and quick money route -- he really took and takes care about ferrari's brand value. i appreciate this.

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Apr 15, 2003 10:16:10 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: What a disgrace!

I wasn't talking about an entry-level Ferrari like the Porsche Boxster. I was talking about a high built in high volume numbers at the price of a 996 for example. I still think that such a project would have success, especially if the quality would be right. Ferrari can't survive how they are right now and I think LM knows that very very well.

The only chance I see for Ferrari (despite building an entry-level Ferrari): to be bought out by GM or Mercedes and being run like a symbol without real profit. I'm not sure however that any car company worldwide can afford to do that right now.

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Apr 15, 2003 10:50:01 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: What a disgrace!

But it is precisely the case right now, Ferrari IS run like a symbol without real profit!!!
Limited production is good for exclusivity, I agree Zzoba, but I am not 100% that it is all the thinking behind limiting the prod, I think it's also a prod problem, they cannot produce more then 4500 cars a years, I've been there, not inside unfortunately, but from the outside, the factory is pretty small.
I actually know Lapo and Yaki Elkan on personal basis, it'd be interesting to hear their thoughts on Ferrari's future and on LDM's bonus.
But it's not the right time now, they have other concerns unfortunately which are more important.
Fanch.

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Apr 17, 2003 3:50:03 PM

f550lm: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 32, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 22, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: What a disgrace!

Actually Fanch - I disagree.

Montezemolo has been instrumental to the success of the company - the car that "saved" Ferrari was a direct result of his will - (the F355).

Moreover, it was him that managed to lure Schumacher, Todt, Brawn away from Benetton.
Neverthless - I agree that this act of paying yourself some 20 Million Euros is the mark of man who may soon be leaving.....

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Apr 22, 2003 12:04:18 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: f550lm

Re: What a disgrace!

Fair enough Manu,
I didn't know he was the one who actually BUILD the actual team and also created the 355, respect.
I suppose I was just really chocked to read that half the profit of the company went into his pocket.
If he's that good, he should stay with Ferrari because he's not that old, unless the Family has bigger plans for him like FIAT, that wouldn't suprise me and it would a beautiful challenge.
Fanch.

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May 11, 2003 11:02:11 PM

amenasce: Newbie; Loc: Paris; Posts: 18, Gallery; Registered on: May 29, 2002; Reply to: Futch

Re: What a disgrace!

Ferrari makes money selling their road cars but also from royalties . Sponsors pay for most of the F1 team budget but that has nothing to do with Ferrari.Spa benefits.

The Enzo is much more profitable than any other road car offered by Ferrari. It will pay for its own developpement and then some

..

The idea of Ferrari making sub 100 000 euros would mean the death of Ferrari exclusivity as u would begin to see Ferraris everywhere pretty much like u see 996's and SL ..
Plus Why should they both ? they already offer a sub 100 000 euros car , the Maserati Coupe and Spyder .

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May 12, 2003 7:18:10 AM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: amenasce

Re: What a disgrace!

I agree about the 100000 Euros cars. That's what Maser is for. If they are going to do a cheaper car, it should be a Maser and Let Ferrari take care of the high end.
About the benefits, you're saying that Ferrari road cars and the Scuderia have nothing to do with eachother right? I didn't know that. I thought Ferrari made very little money with their road cars and most of it with F1.

Fanch.

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