Crown

I like it! Such a pity it will be battery operated.

The drawback of EVs is the absence of a true engine, of course. Electric motors are a very general, dull thing without the distinctive charisma and character of an ICE. The various combustion engine configurations, sounds, rev limits etc are very important features that form the personality of each car brand and excite car lovers.

The EVs no matter how fast they can accelerate and go are the equivalent of castrating the personal automobile. I believe that in 20-30 years no one will drive for pleasure anymore unless he keeps and maintains an old car, if he could find available petrol, that is. Maybe this is the grand plan of the legislators to put more and more people off personal transport eventually.

--

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

The drawback of EVs is the absence of a true engine, of course. Electric motors are a very general, dull thing without the distinctive charisma and character of an ICE. The various combustion engine configurations, sounds, rev limits etc are very important features that form the personality of each car brand and excite car lovers.

Agreed!

The EVs no matter how fast they can accelerate and go are the equivalent of castrating the personal automobile. I believe that in 20-30 years no one will drive for pleasure anymore unless he keeps and maintains an old car, if he could find available petrol, that is.

Elites will still have access.

Maybe this is the grand plan of the legislators to put more and more people off personal transport eventually.

I pray every night that they fail

--

Look what's happening here with several purchasing older cars as well as the popularity of Singer and similar products.  For the enthusiast, the internal combustion engine as prime mover still represents something that EVs can't compete against-charisma.  However, from a purely economics standpoint, EVs have many advantages over ICE, so one can understand why automakers want to pursue a pure EV strategy going into the next decade.  

CGX car nut:

Look what's happening here with several purchasing older cars as well as the popularity of Singer and similar products.  For the enthusiast, the internal combustion engine as prime mover still represents something that EVs can't compete against-charisma.  However, from a purely economics standpoint, EVs have many advantages over ICE, so one can understand why automakers want to pursue a pure EV strategy going into the next decade.  

Agreed. Remember we are a tiny sample size on @Rennteam .

crayphile:

CGX car nut:

Look what's happening here with several purchasing older cars as well as the popularity of Singer and similar products.  For the enthusiast, the internal combustion engine as prime mover still represents something that EVs can't compete against-charisma.  However, from a purely economics standpoint, EVs have many advantages over ICE, so one can understand why automakers want to pursue a pure EV strategy going into the next decade.  

Agreed. Remember we are a tiny sample size on @Rennteam .

True on the small sample size, however, many in the States are still wedded to large displacement engines for their large vehicles.  Even in large metropolitan areas here, EVs represent the vast minority of vehicles on the road.  

...and as for Africa, well, they are almost non existent...as one would expect. Vast swathes of the continent without electric energy to shine a light, let alone power up an EV. 

https://insideevs.com/news/536716/bjorn-mercedes-eactros-electric-truck/

Imagine all the millions of diesel delivery trucks on the road today being replaced by electric versions.

That's a giant step forward in reducing carbon output. Much better target than chasing minuscule gains by replacing passenger cars with EVs. 

Politicians are plainly stupid. Banning normal passengers cars to reduce carbon footprint is like trying to clean up a oil tanker spill with a roll of paper towel. In the press it sure looks like one is doing 'something' for the photo op. But deep down it does absolutely nothing to change the situation.

Second target for them would be ocean going vessels, cargo fleets and cruise ships. Those spilled out million times more CO2 than normal cars. 

Heck they should also chase the coal burning powerplants too. 

Eliminate all of those and literally the human CO2 output would probably cut by half. 

Even moving OTR trucks from Diesel to NatGas would dramatically reduce carbon emissions.  However, our dear leaders can’t think so boldly and intelligently.  

It's not really about the climate.

Spyderidol:

It's not really about the climate.

Or they would go after the termites 

Leawood911:

Spyderidol:

It's not really about the climate.

Or they would go after the termites 

Or cows, with their farts. 

Something more. 

My local government yesterday just announced a new initiative to phase out fossil fuel, this time targeting homes. Our electricity are from hydro dams, so they want us to migrate to heat pumps and electric stoves and such to phase out natural gas usage in homes too in addition to promoting EVs for the road to replace gasoline and diesel engines.

They are targeting 930,000 tons of carbon emission reduction to start with, boasting that numbers equals to 200,000 less passenger car trips a year. Big numbers, looks impressive.

But dig deeper. that same 930,000 tons figure doesn't mean much. An average freight hauler's yearly mileage count is about 100,000 miles. Dumping ~350 tons of emissions. So that 930,000 tons only means ~2600 fewer truck trips a year. 

Not so impressive now. 

Oh one more thing. Did I mentioned the local greenies are protesting against new hydro dams construction? So the plan  will be the materialize electricity from thin air magically now to feed the grid.  And no, solar isn't a viable option. We have ~192 rain days a year. It rains here more than half the year. Raincouver is a thing.

Uk has something similar, ban on new gas boilers from 2025, with hydrogen and heat pumps the replacement 

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/mar/13/hammond-says-gas-heating-will-be-replaced-by-low-carbon-systems

Whoopsy:

We have ~192 rain days a year. It rains here more than half the year. Raincouver is a thing.

I would imagine that it certainly adds consistency to the hydro power 

Whoopsy, the irony is that electric car is much more dirty than ICE one. What is ecology... its efficiency. Efficiency is to make max output with minimal input. Gasoline and diesel provide 100500 times more energy per, f.e. kg than li ion battery. That means that these stupid socialists from EU will have to increase the input substantially to provide the same energy output, so more resources, more materials needed, more stupid solar panels and vents...to produce which, again, you need more materials and resources, so more pollution. Overall we will need to sh*t the whole planet to get 0 CO2 on EV)))

Without the joke. ICE is the most ecological engine, nuclear is the most ecological energy source, both due to extreme energy density. (I believe these stupid EU, US and etc socialists/ecologists have never studied physics:-))). 

--

sportcars-history.com

You may be right but it doesn’t fit the narrative. Look at Germany today, closing nuclear and running out of coal for power stations. Can’t make this stuff up. 

I am as far from green as you can get. I like my EV cause it is fast and stealthy. Any government regulations to drive consumer choices rather than relying on actual utility or advantage is a crime in my mind in terms of restricting our behavior. It never ends well. That said the EV is the only choice if you want to be specific fuel independent.  Nuclear would be best but solar and wind together with old fashioned hydro can all be used.  Your gas or diesel car are pretty limited and depending on a pretty nasty delivery system to get it to your car. 
Some people forget that an ice engine maybe gets 30-35% of energy out of the fuel relative to almost 98% for an EV in terms of using all the energy.   When it costs me one penny a mile to drive my car in electric cost you will not convince me that ICE is more efficient.  That just silly stuff. Maybe focus your anger at the politicians and less on inanimate objects. 

Volvo disclosed that during the production process, the Polestar 2 EV emits 26 tons of carbon emissions. The equivalent Volvo alternative, the XC40, only emits 14 tons.

Also, depends on where one lives, the electricity going into the EV may not even be clean. Where I live it's 100% hydro power so my electricity is 100% clean. Zero footprint.

But someone else in the USA may get their electricity from a coal power plant, or a natural gas plants. The Camry they owned before replacing it with a Model 3 has a cleaner exhaust gas than the power plant where their Model 3 gets it's electricity. 

EVs aren't the solution to the problem, it's still part of the problem. it's a not-in-my-backyard thing. Since it's not emitting carbon in front of me so it's 'clean', and I don't care how dirty it is upstream of where I am, cause that's not my problem. 

Virtue signalling to the fullest. 

996FourEss:

You may be right but it doesn’t fit the narrative. Look at Germany today, closing nuclear and running out of coal for power stations. Can’t make this stuff up. 

I am deeply dissapointed in what I see in EU and Germany in particular. Being oriented to the west (in Russia you can be for v.v.p or western oriented liberal, I am second)) I really dont understand all this stuff. I understand the wish to decrease the dependability on oil and gas from some non reliable partners, but the method is wrong. What I am afraid the most - death of certain skills that made Europe, especially Germany - one of the most innovative countries.

But what to do... today we live in the world of socialists... 

sportcars-history.com

Leawood911:

I am as far from green as you can get. I like my EV cause it is fast and stealthy. Any government regulations to drive consumer choices rather than relying on actual utility or advantage is a crime in my mind in terms of restricting our behavior. It never ends well. That said the EV is the only choice if you want to be specific fuel independent.  Nuclear would be best but solar and wind together with old fashioned hydro can all be used.  Your gas or diesel car are pretty limited and depending on a pretty nasty delivery system to get it to your car. 
Some people forget that an ice engine maybe gets 30-35% of energy out of the fuel relative to almost 98% for an EV in terms of using all the energy.   When it costs me one penny a mile to drive my car in electric cost you will not convince me that ICE is more efficient.  That just silly stuff. Maybe focus your anger at the politicians and less on inanimate objects. 

Dear leawood, yes, you right, if we take the vehicle itself electric engine is much more efficient, but you take only the car itself here - the final segment of the added value chain. But if you look deeper to the energy delivery chain and what is required to get the same amount of energy as oil, you will see that oil extraction is much more ecology solution)))

1. Battery production and recycling

2. Decreased cars lifecycle - more materials to produce new cars and more recycling facilities to renew the materials usage.

3. Decreased dense of energy production - more materials and more space needed to produce the same amount of electricity

4. Electricity delivery - imagine that you transfer all the cars to ev, how many stations and cables you need to deliver the energy without losses. There is nothing about ecology.

5. Energy production decentralization

6. More li ion batteries to decrease the peaks of noncontrollable solar and wind energy production

7. Longer electricity bills and total change of transport taxation system - 10 years and you will pay for each kilometer you drive

sportcars-history.com

Whoopsy:

Volvo disclosed that during the production process, the Polestar 2 EV emits 26 tons of carbon emissions. The equivalent Volvo alternative, the XC40, only emits 14 tons.

Also, depends on where one lives, the electricity going into the EV may not even be clean. Where I live it's 100% hydro power so my electricity is 100% clean. Zero footprint.

But someone else in the USA may get their electricity from a coal power plant, or a natural gas plants. The Camry they owned before replacing it with a Model 3 has a cleaner exhaust gas than the power plant where their Model 3 gets it's electricity. 

EVs aren't the solution to the problem, it's still part of the problem. it's a not-in-my-backyard thing. Since it's not emitting carbon in front of me so it's 'clean', and I don't care how dirty it is upstream of where I am, cause that's not my problem. 

Virtue signalling to the fullest. 

Totally right!!!!! Absolutely!!! 

Considering the amount of changes needed to ev transfer, i hope that some pioneers in this direction will f_ck up totally. Porsche is not segway ninebot. What i support fully is hybrid. Small battery with e machine and ice could nicely kill the disadvantages of each other. 

sportcars-history.com

"Porsche 718 Cayman EV keeps 'mid-engined' layout" (Autocar)

Firm’s new ‘e-core’ battery design aids weight distribution and centre of gravity

(4 October 2021)

The next-generation Porsche Cayman and Boxster are set to adopt a bespoke electric sports car platform designed to mimic the current combustion cars’ mid-engined characters and which could go on to underpin future Audi and Lamborghini models.

Using a novel battery arrangement referred to as the ‘e-core’ layout, Porsche’s entry-level sports EVs will offer as low a seating position and centre of gravity as possible, in line with their dynamic billing.

The Stuttgart firm recently revealed the Mission R concept, which officially previews a potential one-make racer and also strongly hints at styling details and dimensions of the as-yet-unannounced electric Cayman and Boxster.

Porsche has admitted that the Mission R reflects work being done in parallel in the firm’s design studio on future EVs, hinting that certain styling elements will in due course be seen on production models. The car is also close in dimensions to the current 718 Cayman and Boxster.

Porsche used a reworked version of the 718 Cayman chassis to make the Mission R concept, but when asked about a possible production version, company boss Oliver Blume said: “When we electrify a model, we won’t do a carry-over of the combustion engine [platform] because there are too many compromises. “When we are looking to future sports cars, we would develop its own platform but connected with some modules coming from other cars. But the platform will be unique.”

The Mission R is designed to mimic a mid-engined sports car design by placing the batteries – the heaviest element of the vehicle – behind the driver but ahead of the rear axle where the engine would usually lie.

Porsche technical chief Michael Steiner said the decision to adopt the unusual layout had been driven by a need to make the car as low as possible in order to reduce drag, but that approach prohibits the traditional EV ’skateboard’ chassis with underfloor batteries. That design is featured on Porsche and Audi’s shared J1 architecture, used by the existing Taycan, and the forthcoming PPE platforms.

“With a typical two-door sports car, you see the car is really low because to reduce drag you want the silhouette as low and flat as possible,” said Steiner. “To do that you should have the driver sitting as low as possible, and if you do that there is no space for a battery below the seat of the driver.

“It’s the same reason why a lot of super-sports cars today have a mid-engine design, with the engine behind the driver. With today’s battery cell technology, the batteries are the biggest and heaviest part of the car – and this could be true for the next decade or so – so we developed what we call the e-core battery design. Packaging-wise and centre of gravity-wise, it’s more or less a copy of a mid-engine design.”

Steiner added that the design also aids the weight distribution and balance, especially with the Mission R concept’s two electric motors – one on each axle – biased towards rear-driven power. But while the Mission R concept uses a specially adapted platform, Steiner echoed Blume by ruling out such an architecture for production models.

“There is no platform unchanged by electrification, but the only platform within our portfolio that might not change that much would be for mid-engined cars like the Boxster and Cayman,” said Steiner. “Ten years ago, we started with prototypes of electrification with this mid-engined layout because you could use the space of the engine and transmission for the battery.

“But we decided within Porsche, starting with the Taycan, that we will do no conversion-type design, with space for an internal combustion engine, plug-in hybrid or fully electric options, because there is always some compromise in weight, package and other dimensions.

“So even for mid-engined cars, we still see a good reason to just design a full-electric platform. That might change, but not in the next few years.”

Steiner said Porsche was investigating ‘mid-engined’ battery design ahead of trying to mimic a rear-drive car such as the 911 because, with current EV technology, the firm wanted to keep the batteries within the central crash structure of the car for safety reasons.

Steiner hinted that such a platform layout could also be used for higher-performance cars in future, perhaps from sibling brands Lamborghini and Audi, noting that you could develop a concept such as the Mission R with a layout “in the direction” of a super-sports car.

“This is not only driven by technology,” he added. “Often, the main direction comes from what we expect the market would favour, and then we try to develop the technology in that direction.”

Asked if there was customer acceptance for an electric Porsche similar in performance to the 718 Cayman, Steiner said: “I would say yes, but this needs weight reduction. If you drive and push a real sports car on the race track, you would still feel this [weight]. You might not notice it on the highway, but a real sports car has to perform on the race track.”

The Volkswagen Group is currently developing the SSP platform, which in effect fuses the Volkswagen-led MEB and Audi/Porsche- developed PPE architectures and features a skateboard chassis-style design with underfloor batteries.

The group is also working on a unified battery cell design, which it says could be used for more than 80% of the EV models it produces. However, that would still leave significant room for cars using a different design of battery, which might be required to fit the ‘mid-engined’ layout of the potential new platform.

Link:  https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsche-718-cayman-ev-keeps-mid-engined-layout 

Leawood911:

I am as far from green as you can get. I like my EV cause it is fast and stealthy. Any government regulations to drive consumer choices rather than relying on actual utility or advantage is a crime in my mind in terms of restricting our behavior. It never ends well. That said the EV is the only choice if you want to be specific fuel independent.  Nuclear would be best but solar and wind together with old fashioned hydro can all be used.  Your gas or diesel car are pretty limited and depending on a pretty nasty delivery system to get it to your car. 
Some people forget that an ice engine maybe gets 30-35% of energy out of the fuel relative to almost 98% for an EV in terms of using all the energy.   When it costs me one penny a mile to drive my car in electric cost you will not convince me that ICE is more efficient.  That just silly stuff. Maybe focus your anger at the politicians and less on inanimate objects. 

Well Leawood, what you say makes a lot of sense, actually prospect of being specific fuel independent is quite compelling right now sitting here in London with gas shortages!! Yes, gas shortages in a first world country…
 

Wonderful Monday everyone!  What an amazing discussion. Thanks guys. In the long run we need better battery tech - Cobalt free specifically. It is hard to imagine Diesel and gas having more potential at this point than the advances we will see in the next few decades with batteries and nuclear.  I just don’t see ICE having the same potential into the future.  
The good news is that we as car enthusiasts will get quicker and better cars in the bargain. Will there be some nostalgia for the ICE cars?  Of course - we also know pretty well which cars will increase in value as a result and which you won’t be able to give away. We are in the perfect spot for this shift and opportunity. 
 

Lastly - stop selling your freedoms at the ballot box. Fire the socialists. Period.  Big government everywhere is the same. We are their crop and their are the farmers. They pretend the crop votes and then pretend to do what we asked them to.  Apologies to any farmers on this thread. 

996FourEss:

Leawood911:

I am as far from green as you can get. I like my EV cause it is fast and stealthy. Any government regulations to drive consumer choices rather than relying on actual utility or advantage is a crime in my mind in terms of restricting our behavior. It never ends well. That said the EV is the only choice if you want to be specific fuel independent.  Nuclear would be best but solar and wind together with old fashioned hydro can all be used.  Your gas or diesel car are pretty limited and depending on a pretty nasty delivery system to get it to your car. 
Some people forget that an ice engine maybe gets 30-35% of energy out of the fuel relative to almost 98% for an EV in terms of using all the energy.   When it costs me one penny a mile to drive my car in electric cost you will not convince me that ICE is more efficient.  That just silly stuff. Maybe focus your anger at the politicians and less on inanimate objects. 

Well Leawood, what you say makes a lot of sense, actually prospect of being specific fuel independent is quite compelling right now sitting here in London with gas shortages!! Yes, gas shortages in a first world country…
 

My parents in law live on a farm, have a big PV unit with a battery bank installed and some kind of heat pump. They use a BMW X5 hybrid as their car. Car is only used as DD (10.000km/year), they can go to the next airport (holiday) and back without recharging. They do not travel in Germany, they don’t want to drive long distance anymore.

It started as a hobby, they wanted to test what is possible without having to limit yourself if you have the financial resources. No political agenda, only curiosity and too much time

Since the end of 2019 they never visited a fuel station (except rental car) or paid any € for their power supply, warm water or heating. Completely autonomous. In summer the system is that efficient that they sell a little bit of power, economically not relevant. Not bad.

The whole investment was cheaper than a small Porsche, economically it is still not worthwhile. Of course no typical role model, but possible

kudryavchik:

996FourEss:

You may be right but it doesn’t fit the narrative. Look at Germany today, closing nuclear and running out of coal for power stations. Can’t make this stuff up. 

I am deeply dissapointed in what I see in EU and Germany in particular. Being oriented to the west (in Russia you can be for v.v.p or western oriented liberal, I am second)) I really dont understand all this stuff. I understand the wish to decrease the dependability on oil and gas from some non reliable partners, but the method is wrong. What I am afraid the most - death of certain skills that made Europe, especially Germany - one of the most innovative countries.

But what to do... today we live in the world of socialists... 

Agreed. More like wannabe socialists and wannabe environmentalists. People don't get the bigger picture and they forget about...people. It is cool and hip and 21st century and "in" and whatever to be green and to have empathy for the poor and unfortunate. The reality however is that most people don't give a shit about others but more about how they feel when they care about others. It is about them. Some sort of narcissistic egoism and they hide it well. 

This is why the West may be in trouble. People do not want green or socialism but they pretend they do and they support many of these ideas, without realizing that they actually push their own world towards...green and socialism. I know, stupid, right?! This is how humans are. Like sheep. Sheep who think they are wolves but don't want to look that way (and really aren't actually).

It is funny how governments and parties sell their people and voters on price increases for energy. So let me get it straight: Raising energy prices saves the environment? Really? I know the logic behind this but let's be serious here, this won't save the world, it just makes people with low/average incomes miserable.

The miracles of the West, we have the biggest talent to destroy our own wealth.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

RC:

kudryavchik:

996FourEss:

You may be right but it doesn’t fit the narrative. Look at Germany today, closing nuclear and running out of coal for power stations. Can’t make this stuff up. 

I am deeply dissapointed in what I see in EU and Germany in particular. Being oriented to the west (in Russia you can be for v.v.p or western oriented liberal, I am second)) I really dont understand all this stuff. I understand the wish to decrease the dependability on oil and gas from some non reliable partners, but the method is wrong. What I am afraid the most - death of certain skills that made Europe, especially Germany - one of the most innovative countries.

But what to do... today we live in the world of socialists... 

Agreed. More like wannabe socialists and wannabe environmentalists. People don't get the bigger picture and they forget about...people. It is cool and hip and 21st century and "in" and whatever to be green and to have empathy for the poor and unfortunate. The reality however is that most people don't give a shit about others but more about how they feel when they care about others. It is about them. Some sort of narcissistic egoism and they hide it well. 

This is why the West may be in trouble. People do not want green or socialism but they pretend they do and they support many of these ideas, without realizing that they actually push their own world towards...green and socialism. I know, stupid, right?! This is how humans are. Like sheep. Sheep who think they are wolves but don't want to look that way (and really aren't actually).

It is funny how governments and parties sell their people and voters on price increases for energy. So let me get it straight: Raising energy prices saves the environment? Really? I know the logic behind this but let's be serious here, this won't save the world, it just makes people with low/average incomes miserable.

The miracles of the West, we have the biggest talent to destroy our own wealth.

They get around that by keep saying 'tax the rich'..............And let us government do the right thing, we will always be right. 

Literally this is not even socialist anymore. It's entering Communist territory. No more personal wealth/property. We the government can provide what we think you need and nothing more. We will mandate what car you can buy/drive. We will mandate what your healthcare will be. etc. All the while high up in the government personal keep making exceptions for themselves and live a better life than the rest. 

Leawood911:

Wonderful Monday everyone!  What an amazing discussion. Thanks guys. In the long run we need better battery tech - Cobalt free specifically. It is hard to imagine Diesel and gas having more potential at this point than the advances we will see in the next few decades with batteries and nuclear.  I just don’t see ICE having the same potential into the future.  
The good news is that we as car enthusiasts will get quicker and better cars in the bargain. Will there be some nostalgia for the ICE cars?  Of course - we also know pretty well which cars will increase in value as a result and which you won’t be able to give away. We are in the perfect spot for this shift and opportunity. 
 

Lastly - stop selling your freedoms at the ballot box. Fire the socialists. Period.  Big government everywhere is the same. We are their crop and their are the farmers. They pretend the crop votes and then pretend to do what we asked them to.  Apologies to any farmers on this thread. 

Leawood, the interesting thing is that the current battery tech has already reached its limits. And, unfortunately, the solid state electrolyte doesn't show anything revolutionary... The capacity per kilo is higher, but not in times. tens %. Also, currently I see no way to decrease the charging time. Considering that you need 40-50 mins to charge 60-70% (ideal conditions) you will need 4-5 times more electric stations than traditional gasoline.

Also, electric mobility will shift the cars more into gadgets. Decrease of lifecycle, more dependance on updates and software, also all electric motors are the same. It means the cars will be iphones. Iphone X or Iphone 13 - no difference on user experience, same soft. Only better camera, bit brighter screen and performance evolution. In 7 years it will be turned off from services, buy new one, old will be unusable 

sportcars-history.com

RC:

kudryavchik:

996FourEss:

You may be right but it doesn’t fit the narrative. Look at Germany today, closing nuclear and running out of coal for power stations. Can’t make this stuff up. 

I am deeply dissapointed in what I see in EU and Germany in particular. Being oriented to the west (in Russia you can be for v.v.p or western oriented liberal, I am second)) I really dont understand all this stuff. I understand the wish to decrease the dependability on oil and gas from some non reliable partners, but the method is wrong. What I am afraid the most - death of certain skills that made Europe, especially Germany - one of the most innovative countries.

But what to do... today we live in the world of socialists... 

Agreed. More like wannabe socialists and wannabe environmentalists. People don't get the bigger picture and they forget about...people. It is cool and hip and 21st century and "in" and whatever to be green and to have empathy for the poor and unfortunate. The reality however is that most people don't give a shit about others but more about how they feel when they care about others. It is about them. Some sort of narcissistic egoism and they hide it well. 

This is why the West may be in trouble. People do not want green or socialism but they pretend they do and they support many of these ideas, without realizing that they actually push their own world towards...green and socialism. I know, stupid, right?! This is how humans are. Like sheep. Sheep who think they are wolves but don't want to look that way (and really aren't actually).

It is funny how governments and parties sell their people and voters on price increases for energy. So let me get it straight: Raising energy prices saves the environment? Really? I know the logic behind this but let's be serious here, this won't save the world, it just makes people with low/average incomes miserable.

The miracles of the West, we have the biggest talent to destroy our own wealth.

Dear RC, deep ideas here :-) of course sheeps, total vaccination and the limitation of rights for unvaccinated has shown it clearly. Politicians scream they are against of racism and etc, joke, all the old "good" methods are in use today. With some sh-tty propaganda sauce. I remember there was one propaganda innovator from Rheydt, his methods are efficiently used today. Anyway the topic you write about is very very complicated. Lots of things to discuss here. What I see clearly we move towards the shared economics - the economics of poor that spend money on the things they don't have. The world of future - the people without own property. 

sportcars-history.com

Whoopsy:

RC:

kudryavchik:

996FourEss:

You may be right but it doesn’t fit the narrative. Look at Germany today, closing nuclear and running out of coal for power stations. Can’t make this stuff up. 

I am deeply dissapointed in what I see in EU and Germany in particular. Being oriented to the west (in Russia you can be for v.v.p or western oriented liberal, I am second)) I really dont understand all this stuff. I understand the wish to decrease the dependability on oil and gas from some non reliable partners, but the method is wrong. What I am afraid the most - death of certain skills that made Europe, especially Germany - one of the most innovative countries.

But what to do... today we live in the world of socialists... 

Agreed. More like wannabe socialists and wannabe environmentalists. People don't get the bigger picture and they forget about...people. It is cool and hip and 21st century and "in" and whatever to be green and to have empathy for the poor and unfortunate. The reality however is that most people don't give a shit about others but more about how they feel when they care about others. It is about them. Some sort of narcissistic egoism and they hide it well. 

This is why the West may be in trouble. People do not want green or socialism but they pretend they do and they support many of these ideas, without realizing that they actually push their own world towards...green and socialism. I know, stupid, right?! This is how humans are. Like sheep. Sheep who think they are wolves but don't want to look that way (and really aren't actually).

It is funny how governments and parties sell their people and voters on price increases for energy. So let me get it straight: Raising energy prices saves the environment? Really? I know the logic behind this but let's be serious here, this won't save the world, it just makes people with low/average incomes miserable.

The miracles of the West, we have the biggest talent to destroy our own wealth.

 

They get around that by keep saying 'tax the rich'..............And let us government do the right thing, we will always be right. 

Literally this is not even socialist anymore. It's entering Communist territory. No more personal wealth/property. We the government can provide what we think you need and nothing more. We will mandate what car you can buy/drive. We will mandate what your healthcare will be. etc. All the while high up in the government personal keep making exceptions for themselves and live a better life than the rest. 

 

 

Of course tax the rich))) I dont know why it works, but people prefer Lenin approach still - take away and divide. It works well for polls. In Russia, however, not, we draw the results before the polls, innovations in predictions 

sportcars-history.com