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    The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    I just have a question. Do you guys think that porsche does good engines? I mean the GT3 and Carrerra GT are amazing engines but other than those they don't seem to be. The only reason I can think of is that they have to accomodate the car that porsche puts them into. I would expect the cayman to do 100 hp/liter and same with the 911. BMW does it, Audis now doing it and without turbos too. Is there a reason why this 3.4 will do only 295hp?(I mean besides wanting to keep it less powerful than the 911) Does it have good torque or a good power curve or something. The next gt3 they say will have 405 horses from a 3.6 v6 as opposed to the former 390. I don't see why porsche can't have more power. They might as well you smaller higher revving engines. My car is a 2 liter inline 4 and it gets 210hp (acura rsx type s), its torque is rather unimpressive, but still why can porsche make the engines it really should?

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    "The next gt3 they say will have 405 horses from a 3.6 v6 as opposed to the former 390. I don't see why porsche can't have more power."
    When I said that "why cant porsche have more power, I was referring to the other models, the GT3 has more then enough power especially for its engine size.

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    It's all about marketing and making a profit. The GT3 engine could be used in every n/a Flat-6 Porsche product (987/997/Cayman), but they cost WAY more to make than the M96/97. There's a reason that Porsche is the most profitable car company in the world. The GT3 probably has the smallest profit margin of any car in the lineup (unless its the base 987). It's an image product - shows that Porsche can still build a world-class product (all 911's used to use the expensive dry-sump motors until the 996). They like to improve the margins and using the cheaper motors is very effective in that way.

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    Thank you that was helpful, but now that brings up 2 questions.
    Why does BMW and Audi (next RS4 420 hp, 4.2 liter engine) manage to make these amazing engines and put them in cheeper cars. I'm not quite convinced that porsche couldn't do it.Second ?, so is porsche making high quality cars very efficiently(therefore being able make a high profit) or are porsche buyers kinda not getting as much as they should when they buy their car(paying too much for what they get)? I'm referring to the fact that they are the most profitable car company.

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    theres a few more factors to count in...

    first... Porsche has 4 lines and about 20 models all together... it has to differentiate models in order to
    appease a wider audience of buyers... as for them not
    "keeping up with the HP wars" the fact that they are trying
    now is a sign of change... Porsche never boasted the biggest
    HP figures outside the Turbo... but its cars were and are fast... off the line... and in the curves...

    you can't really compare Audis and Bimmers to Porsches... they are completely different beasts... Porsches are Sports Cars... for ppl who want Sports Cars... Audi's and BMW's are sedans for wannabe Sports Car buyers...but theres no arguing taste...

    By having different engines to offer... it can charge different prices... while keeping efficient construction lines cuz the shells are almost identical...

    Once the Cayman hits... it will just be more of the same...
    I've got issues with the Cayman name... but I'm thrilled they didn't forget why a Boxster is called a Boxster...(BOXer engine + roadSTER)

    Re: your follow up question....

    BMW and Audi have different scale of economy when it comes to autobody production, so they have lower cost of goods to begin with, so they go the big output route, but if u have any experience with either of them u will find out that they still handle and brake like the sedans they are. In M and RS form they feel more motor than car,where as Porsche always tries for a balance of motor and handling. Porsche chassis, brakes and handling precision is something special that the others dont have no matter how much u or the factory mods them. No matter how much power Porsches seem like they can handle more.BMW/audi/benz/mustang/corvette always feel over the limit of sanity power/chassis/brake wise.

    I think the last Porsche with best output/ displacement ratio was the 1972 911S with 190hp from 2.2 liters.

    Why current porsches have such a lackluster hp/ displacement ratio now is rather academic because the performance is there. In some ways Porsche horses seem more powerful than other horses anyway. They are fast. Try a 997
    and see what its like after 120mph, you will love it.

    Re: your follow up question....

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    I think the last Porsche with best output/ displacement ratio was the 1972 911S with 190hp from 2.2 liters.



    Jim - I agree with your point, but just to be nitpicky, it was the 71S that last had the 2.2 motor and it made 180hp. The 72S did make 190hp, but it was a 2.4...

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    Quote:
    dsac6 said:
    Thank you that was helpful, but now that brings up 2 questions.
    Why does BMW and Audi (next RS4 420 hp, 4.2 liter engine) manage to make these amazing engines and put them in cheeper cars. I'm not quite convinced that porsche couldn't do it.Second ?, so is porsche making high quality cars very efficiently(therefore being able make a high profit) or are porsche buyers kinda not getting as much as they should when they buy their car(paying too much for what they get)? I'm referring to the fact that they are the most profitable car company.



    Well, I would say it's a little of each. The GT3 motor is far better than any motor built by Audi or BMW. In fact, it's one of the very best (in terms of performance, technology, track-readiness, longevity and reliability) of any car that's ever been built for the street.

    And, yes, Porsche is charging too much for some of its products and delivering too little (but if people buy it - then you can't really call it overcharging - that's the markeplace). There are many who think the 997S (if not the other models) should use something similar to the GT3 motor for nearly a $100k car. I think the GT3 motor costs over 4x what the M96/97 motor costs Porsche to build and Porsche is living on its reputation there (and dishonest marketing - an integrated dry sump is just a wet sump) - maximizing profit.

    Re: your follow up question....

    I think Porsche as a company can build some of *the* best engines in the world......but do they?, clearly not for some of their more common vehicles.

    From the mid '80s to the mid '90s just about EVERY Porsche engine that I can think of could be deemed bullet proof for 200k miles if taken care of properly.....right down to the 4 cylinders in the 944/968 range. You might have problems with the car electricals, climate controls, etc., but having to really crack an engine open before 100k was not heard of very often. I used to brag whole heartedly about the robustness of the Porsche engine. I no longer feel or can say that about most of the engines Porsche puts out today. It is easy to see that most Porsche engines today are built with a different price/performance/longevity calculation than before. Problems that should have been fixed with engineering changes in the last 6-7 years are now deemed "acceptable" with short term repairs used as the fix. Someone that experiences many of these short term repairs just gets a rebuilt engine and hopes they don't happen again. You can no longer say "My 9xx has 100k miles on it but still performs like new.", it's more like "My 911 or Boxster only has 40k miles on it....but its just like new with its third rebuilt engine!"

    I know times have changed and Porsche needed to do a few things in order for them to even be around today.....don't have a problem with that......but some of those things are a little hard to swallow sometimes.

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    i think it has alot to do with the configuration of the engines. porsche uses 'boxer' engines. these flat or horizontally opposed motors have their strenghts and weak spots. strenghts include a lower center of gravity, which aid in handling, and the fact that they are very smooth. a weak area for this type of motor is specific ouput ie hp/l. hope this helps.

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    Quote:
    Audi's and BMW's are sedans for wannabe Sports Car buyers

    I like that attitude...NOT!

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    Quote:
    adam0861 said:
    i think it has alot to do with the configuration of the engines. porsche uses 'boxer' engines. these flat or horizontally opposed motors have their strenghts and weak spots. strenghts include a lower center of gravity, which aid in handling, and the fact that they are very smooth. a weak area for this type of motor is specific ouput ie hp/l. hope this helps.



    Adam - that's not the case. The GT3 motor is a boxer motor and has exceptional specific output, so it's not the flat-6 configuration that is limiting...

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    My 2 cents... the horizontally opposed boxter engines have more parts and are more complex so they are more expensive than a V8 or more simple configurations, also they cannot be bored out to large displacements like a V8 without requiring very expensive materials and costs, and still then cannot match their limits. So a Flat-6 without using forced induction are more limited by costs, reliability, etc. in power output than more conventional configurations, especially with todays necesary power outputs, the 993's performance is not enough for today and to bring out adecuate performance would increase costs such an engine, hence the GT3's engine pricetag. Thats the reason that after the HP and contamination level needs beyond the 993 times Porsche had to go into a watercooled and more economical mainstream Flat-6 engine for the carreras that did the job its meant to with honors and a more expensive engine for the low volume GT3 for the track and competition in mind. Save the RMS leaks, the engine on the 986/997 is a great engine, the way power delivery is achieved, its revability, playfulness, and refinement, etc. is among the best there is. Peak HP numbers are not everything, drive a S2000 or SLK vs a Boxster or a Mitsu EVO or Mustang vs a carrera and you will see what I mean. The Porsches N/A Flat-6's are an absolute joy to drive.
    For me personally the best engine makers today are Porsche, Ferrari and BMW. And yes, BMW makes sedans but their engines would always kick many so called sportcar maker's engines butt anyday. Audi and Merc are another story, although they are starting to turn around their engine philosphy to copy what BMW has been doing for ages. Porsche's different N/A and turbochraged unique boxer engines are inreplaceble, and Ferrari's V8's are amazing.

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    carlos, dont forget lamborghini!!! personally, I think that ferrari is NOT in that league, they are like the S2000, huge HP, but torque is quite low, and achieved very high in the RPM band...

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    Yes, but Lambo doens't have as much history in that department and is just starting now thanks to Audi, and also they don't have a high performing NA engine in their line-up which is the essential sportcar engine.
    Ferrari's V8s may lack some torque, I also agree, but their flat-crank sound and revability is intoxicating, and at the high end of the rev range their performance and feel is also great which is were a sportcar spends most of its time.
    Of course different people like different things from an engine so there is no way to really put them in one order.

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    I like the peaky nature of the Ferrari motors. It forces you to be in the right gear at the right time, which just adds to the skill and fun of driving them, as long as the gear ratios are close enough

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    Me too, I'm the same way, very rewarding to drive (as long power delivery is linear (i.e atmospheric, not small displacement big turbo engines for example), sportbike engines are the same way

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    hi grant,
    the gt3 does produce alot of power for it's engine size, but so do alot of other less expensive engines in less expensive cars. there must be a reason that everyone else (and porsche, with the carrera gt) goes with a v configuration when they build high performance engines. i think the flat 6 layout was a natural evolution for porsche when they finally got rid of the vw based flat fours back in the mid sixties, and it's been a matter of tradition/cost ever since. something tells me that if porsche had started their 40 year campaign of developing a motor with a v-6 instead of a flat one, we'd be seeing alot more power than we currently are. am i way off base here? don't get me wrong, i for one love the flat 6's.

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    Quote:
    adam0861 said:
    hi grant,
    the gt3 does produce alot of power for it's engine size, but so do alot of other less expensive engines in less expensive cars. there must be a reason that everyone else (and porsche, with the carrera gt) goes with a v configuration when they build high performance engines. i think the flat 6 layout was a natural evolution for porsche when they finally got rid of the vw based flat fours back in the mid sixties, and it's been a matter of tradition/cost ever since. something tells me that if porsche had started their 40 year campaign of developing a motor with a v-6 instead of a flat one, we'd be seeing alot more power than we currently are. am i way off base here? don't get me wrong, i for one love the flat 6's.



    Adam - I'm not an engineer, but everything I've read about the flat-6 configuration leads me to believe that it is an excellent platform for making big specific power numbers. It's harmonically balanced (like a straight 6 or V12) and can rev very high (a necessity for power). The only place that the flat-6 is limited is in the sense that it's only a 6-cylinder, so each cylinder needs to have relatively large displacement to make alot of naturally aspirated power. The larger each cylinder becomes beyond the optimum size (around 350cc), the less specific output it can generate.

    When the rules in F1 required 3.5L, that's when all the teams started using V10's (it wasn't part of the rules then), since 10 x 350cc = 3.5L

    Otherwise, a V10 is sort of a clunky motor, compared to a V8 or V12 which are smoother running. Not that the motor in the CGT isn't wonderful for a V10, but I think a V12 would've been even better. It was made as a V10 to comply with racing rules.

    So, with 3.8L in the Flat 6, we're well past the optimum cylinder size at 633cc. That's why the 1967 911R 2.0L motors were so good (210hp - 105hp/L - more than a 997S), even with 38 year old technology. They had a cylinder size of 333cc - nearly perfect. The big 633cc cylinders have huge pistons and other parts running at high speed - too much reciprocating mass to be efficient...

    Remember the Flat-12 in the 917 racer. Those were 4.5L - 4.9L, so each cylinder was 375cc and they made crazy power - around 1,200hp (with turbos of course).

    If Porsche would invest in making a Flat-12 for a mid-engined road car with 5L, it would be incredible. I think there's nothing limiting about the horizontally-opposed motors except packaging constraints - and they have a very low center of gravity which is a huge benefit.

    If the 911 cars weren't getting so big and heavy, a flat-6 would still be the perfect choice for a n/a motor (turbos do wonders). Can you name a n/a V-6 that makes better power than a GT3 with the same displacement? With the weight gain we need more power which means we need more cylinders...

    Re: Flat Engines.

    Maybe I missed this mentioned somewhere in the discussion above, but a horizontally opposed engine offers one big advantage over other designs, and that is a lower center of gravity. Thats a good thing in a sports car

    Ferrari used a flat 12 in the Boxer and Testarossa, but had to compromise optimal layout height because of the transaxle
    design.

    Re: Flat Engines.

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Maybe I missed this mentioned somewhere in the discussion above, but a horizontally opposed engine offers one big advantage over other designs, and that is a lower center of gravity. Thats a good thing in a sports car

    Ferrari used a flat 12 in the Boxer and Testarossa, but had to compromise optimal layout height because of the transaxle
    design.



    Yep, I had that in the above mess too It does help alot!

    Re: Flat Engines.

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Maybe I missed this mentioned somewhere in the discussion above, but a horizontally opposed engine offers one big advantage over other designs, and that is a lower center of gravity. Thats a good thing in a sports car

    Ferrari used a flat 12 in the Boxer and Testarossa, but had to compromise optimal layout height because of the transaxle
    design.



    Yep, I had that in the above mess too It does help alot!



    You can feel the difference in the seat of your pants for both roll center and center of gravity between a flat motor car and a V motor car. I think Ferrari should have made the 360/F420 series with a flat 8 and a low mounted transaxle. it would greatly improve their handling by giving them a better moment of polar inertia for even better handling. As it is now, the F420 engine layout is pretty high up in the chassis. The Cayman, wich will have a better suspension and chassis than a Boxster will probably be an incredibly handling car. With power, gearing and a LSD that is more effective than 30%, they will have a supreme handling, but stupidly named sportscar.

    Re: Flat Engines.

    Did you see the new issue of Panorama - sweet 550 Spyder next to a Boxster? Can you imagine what a 550 must handle like? 960 lbs dry weight with very low mounted mid-engined flat-4 with 4-cams and high revs. Less than 40" tall (a foot lower than Boxster). Makes the Boxster look like a Suburban

    Re: Flat Engines.

    I think Porsche flat 6's can have quite high specific outputs compaired to most other normally aspirated engines. I know my 3.0 ltr. 911 makes 370hp at 8400 rpm and will rev to about 9250 rpms quite willingly (though only for about 35 hours or so... )

    Re: Flat Engines.

    Quote:
    Mithras said:
    I think Porsche flat 6's can have quite high specific outputs compaired to most other normally aspirated engines. I know my 3.0 ltr. 911 makes 370hp at 8400 rpm and will rev to about 9250 rpms quite willingly (though only for about 35 hours or so... )



    Nice! What sort of specs on that motor (compression, dual-plug, carbs or FI)?

    Re: Flat Engines.

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Did you see the new issue of Panorama - sweet 550 Spyder next to a Boxster? Can you imagine what a 550 must handle like? 960 lbs dry weight with very low mounted mid-engined flat-4 with 4-cams and high revs. Less than 40" tall (a foot lower than Boxster). Makes the Boxster look like a Suburban



    Lets hope if Porsche ever has the nerve to jump out of the fat boy luxus mindset and make a modernized 550 that they
    use a different crankshaft bearing design They could
    use the same body design though, add a few boron rods here and there and blended alloy steels, they could do it!

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    dsac6 said:
    Thank you that was helpful, but now that brings up 2 questions.
    Why does BMW and Audi (next RS4 420 hp, 4.2 liter engine) manage to make these amazing engines and put them in cheeper cars. I'm not quite convinced that porsche couldn't do it.Second ?, so is porsche making high quality cars very efficiently(therefore being able make a high profit) or are porsche buyers kinda not getting as much as they should when they buy their car(paying too much for what they get)? I'm referring to the fact that they are the most profitable car company.



    Well, I would say it's a little of each. The GT3 motor is far better than any motor built by Audi or BMW. In fact, it's one of the very best (in terms of performance, technology, track-readiness, longevity and reliability) of any car that's ever been built for the street.

    And, yes, Porsche is charging too much for some of its products and delivering too little (but if people buy it - then you can't really call it overcharging - that's the markeplace). There are many who think the 997S (if not the other models) should use something similar to the GT3 motor for nearly a $100k car. I think the GT3 motor costs over 4x what the M96/97 motor costs Porsche to build and Porsche is living on its reputation there (and dishonest marketing - an integrated dry sump is just a wet sump) - maximizing profit.



    To be fair, I don't think Porsche is alone. Have you seen the prices of BMW's or Mercedes' options? $1,100 for a sunroof?! $2,500 for Keyless Go!!

    I also don't get hung up on 'true' dry sump vs. Porsche's current definition. Once upon a time, wasn't a "roadster" a 2 seat car without a top and maybe a tonneau cover for the passenger compartment? Wasn't a "coupe" a 2 door car? There are many companies who describe their convertible models these days as roadsters or "coupes" (new 4 door Benz CLS) but it doesn't seem people are as pissed at those companies as the folks here on these boards are about Porsche's marketing. Why is that?

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    Quote:
    Jeff (in SF) said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    dsac6 said:
    Thank you that was helpful, but now that brings up 2 questions.
    Why does BMW and Audi (next RS4 420 hp, 4.2 liter engine) manage to make these amazing engines and put them in cheeper cars. I'm not quite convinced that porsche couldn't do it.Second ?, so is porsche making high quality cars very efficiently(therefore being able make a high profit) or are porsche buyers kinda not getting as much as they should when they buy their car(paying too much for what they get)? I'm referring to the fact that they are the most profitable car company.



    Well, I would say it's a little of each. The GT3 motor is far better than any motor built by Audi or BMW. In fact, it's one of the very best (in terms of performance, technology, track-readiness, longevity and reliability) of any car that's ever been built for the street.

    And, yes, Porsche is charging too much for some of its products and delivering too little (but if people buy it - then you can't really call it overcharging - that's the markeplace). There are many who think the 997S (if not the other models) should use something similar to the GT3 motor for nearly a $100k car. I think the GT3 motor costs over 4x what the M96/97 motor costs Porsche to build and Porsche is living on its reputation there (and dishonest marketing - an integrated dry sump is just a wet sump) - maximizing profit.



    To be fair, I don't think Porsche is alone. Have you seen the prices of BMW's or Mercedes' options? $1,100 for a sunroof?! $2,500 for Keyless Go!!

    I also don't get hung up on 'true' dry sump vs. Porsche's current definition. Once upon a time, wasn't a "roadster" a 2 seat car without a top and maybe a tonneau cover for the passenger compartment? Wasn't a "coupe" a 2 door car? There are many companies who describe their convertible models these days as roadsters or "coupes" (new 4 door Benz CLS) but it doesn't seem people are as pissed at those companies as the folks here on these boards are about Porsche's marketing. Why is that?



    Why is that??

    Roadster, convertible, coupe descriptions are mere semantics issues thats why!

    But a dry sump is not!

    If the dry sump issue was unimportant, then why would Porsche offer parts for the m97/96 "dry sump" to make it suitable for track use?? Previous Porsche flat six's had an actual dry sump with a remote oil resevoir. Porsche eliminated that to save money. So if you "track" your 986/87/97/97 whatever and the motor caves, guess what? Porsche asks if you had the sump modification kit, if not, u goin down, down, down..

    Besides that they have other issues to deal with like, crankshaft,cases,balance shafts,seals,intermediate shafts, yadda yadda, none of wich seem to be a problem on the GT3 or Turbo! Soooooo its kinda obvious why some owners are ticked off!

    So, with true German car company executive mindset....I blame it all on the customers!!!!

    So you softies wanted a quieter car...meet Herr dual mass flywheel! It robs power and directness, the liquid cooling also makes for a quieter motor with greater frequency for disaster, and the hydraulic motor and sub chassis mounts really spaz out the cars feel. Want more?? Thank you! Get the pampered big spender yellow steering wheel and stitching! Its the customers who pushed Porsche into offering pimped up Bavarian lexus uber coupes
    that were quieter, easier to drive and "gifted" with understeer.

    At least Porsche makes the GT3 for sportscar people

    Lets hope the "Cayman" wont end up as the darling of the poseur set with optional lavender heated floor mats and atrocious looking color keyed steering wheels. If they do, It's just goping to clog up the bandwidth of Porsche option sites on the internet.

    Re: The Cayman 3.4 liter engine.....

    Quote:
    ... lavender heated floor mats ...



    Too funny! You are on a roll!

    Re: Proof There is Mescaline in the water at Porsche HQ


    "How do we make the perfect Porsche? It's all a matter of taste"

    http://www3.us.porsche.com/english/usa/accessories/exclusive/default.htm

     
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