Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !! - Page1

Feb 22, 2005 1:53:31 PM

Dilinger: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Athens,Greece , Greece; Posts: 2034, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 23, 2004

The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

So how much slower does the carrera feels (or actually is ) when opposed to the legendary S???

Is the difference so much? If someone got the base carrera is he loosing much more power and feel?

And because this is partially a subjective issue please care to avoid the following:

1)Base carrera owners ussually try to "eliminate" the differences
2) Carrera S owners try to exagerate it

So please be objective

Especially if you have ride both cars, i m not asking for figures i know them by heart i m asking for real life experience here.

For the history i own the base carrera ,Is it so inferior compared to the S ?

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Feb 22, 2005 4:25:25 PM

tagheuer: Newbie; Loc: SoCal; Posts: 37, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 17, 2005; Reply to: Dilinger

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

I have a non-S as well. Not much of a difference for me to get the S. Anyway, don't beat yourself over for getting a non-S and go enjoy your car already! =)

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Feb 22, 2005 4:36:51 PM

KenH: Co-Pilot; Loc: Leesburg VA; Posts: 249, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 23, 2004; Reply to: tagheuer

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

I deliberately chose the standard Carrera rather than the S and at the time I hadn't driven either.
Both are far faster than can reasonably be used in most of the US most of the time so I figured that I didn't need the S and any extra performance would be wasted on me.
But to be honest I didn't need the standard 997 either, nor a sixth car.

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Feb 22, 2005 4:44:57 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: tagheuer

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

It's commonly accepted that additional premium of the "S" over the standard 9111 is a decent value for the content you get. If stronger brakes, PASM, some extra power, better lights, and standard 19" wheels are not worth 10 grand to you, then bingo, that's why Porsche gave us the choice of two models. It's not as if one is "preferable" to the other, it's just a personal deal. It's a matter that BOTH represent value congruent with their price, so spend as your priorities and abilities dictate. I've seen some writings claiming that the standard car is "purer" and "hard to tell the difference" and whatnot, which is just poetic nonsense and blabbering to me. The stopwatch tells you the differences, and some people are more sensitive to slight variations in performance than others. To say that one car is "almost" as fast, and "almost" handles as well, is just mental masturbation. You get what you pay for in either car. You spend an extra 10K, and you get extra hardware and goodies. PERIOD. Myself, I've always got to have the hottest unit I can justify affording. "Almost" doesn't cut it for me. So I bit the bullet and ordered an "S". If the standard car is almost as quick, and as good or better in other respects, that's fine and dandy. I still want my "S". If I bought the standard car, I would still want the brakes, I would still want the PASM, I would still want the lights, I would still want 19" wheels. And if a performance kit became available, I'd be wanting that too. So it would be retarded for me not to buy an "S", because it would cost me more to load all that content into a standard car. But if all those upgrades are of little interest to any potential 911 buyer, then they are wise and quite satisfied with the standard car. It all depends on how much motor oil flows through your veins, and what you're used to and satisfied with. I'm never satisfied, and I'm a sucker for trick mechanicals and equipment and options, so it behooves me to aim as high as I can. In all honesty, I've never driven a standard 997. Never saw the point in it, I know that the S is for me.

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Feb 22, 2005 4:46:26 PM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: Dilinger

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

If your intention was tracking and fast driving then "S" if just leasure and street driving the standard is more than sufficient. With all the traffic and speed laws in the city you really won't be able to take advantage of the "S" IMO.
The "S" power won't even be noticable until you reach around 4k rpm which IMO is very hard to reach in city driving.
So just enjoy it, S or non-S they both are fantastic cars

.

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Feb 22, 2005 4:52:39 PM

Texas911: Senior; Loc: Houston, Texas - USA; Posts: 766, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2003; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Either way you win, the 997 is an awesome car.

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Feb 22, 2005 5:14:00 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Quote:
Both are far faster than can reasonably be used in most of the US most of the time so I figured that I didn't need the S and any extra performance would be wasted on me.

Your statement proves that there are different personalities that buy these cars, which is why there are numerous Porsche models to choose from. First off, we don't buy Porsche's for sitting in traffic, we buy them for the glorious moments and breaks in traffic where we can make the most fun we can out of what is (for all the other miserable drones on the road) a typically mundane commute. Secondly, I don't know the word "enough", it's not in my vocabulary. I have cars that have ridiculous amounts of power..... and they are an ABSOLUTE BLAST to drive. That's why they are so damn fun, because they are on the edge of obscene, and they make you grin at a 1/4-throttle, let alone full-throttle. That's good stuff, unless you've got one foot in the grave either in body or in spirit, in my opinion. There's no such thing as wasted performance, because you don't have to be going flat-out at 170mph in order to gain enjoyment from the performance potential of a car. I've got an open 1-mile straight leading to the entrance of my neighborhood, and that alone, gives me a grin twice a day that requires appropriate hardware. I'll be very satisfied with the performance of my 997S, BUT, the point at which I say that a car is fast "ENOUGH" is the point at which my feet are trembling, my knuckles are pasty white, and I'm almost paralyzed with fear!! LOL!!! THAT'S when I would finally say, "yep, that car is fast "enough"!!

Of course, the same logic holds true with dirtbikes and boats...

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Feb 22, 2005 5:17:08 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Quote:
The "S" power won't even be noticable until you reach around 4k rpm which IMO is very hard to reach in city driving.

I guess this is why I refuse to live in a city... I've got a nice 20 minute rural drive to and from work, there's plenty of room to stretch out the tach...

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Feb 22, 2005 5:35:14 PM

PS CA: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 833, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 13, 2003; Reply to: Dilinger

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

There is a $9800 difference between an S and non-S. For that $9800 you get 30HP, larger brakes, Bi-Xenon headlights ($1090), PASM ($1990), 19" wheels ($1550). To purchase the "tuned engine" option for the 996 (which increased HP from 320 to 345) cost $13990. I don't know what the larger brakes cost, but I assume they would be $500+ if you could purchase them. So, in theory, you get $19120 worth of extras for $9800. That is a relative bargain. I have seen many people spec their 997 with 19" wheels, PASM and Bi-Xenon headlights ($4630 total) so they could have got an extra 30 HP and turbo brakes for only $5170. As I said, I feel the S option is a good deal but only you know whether it is worth it for yourself.

Phil

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Feb 22, 2005 6:47:08 PM

med: Pilot; Loc: London; Posts: 394, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 4, 2004; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Quote:
69bossnine said:
Quote:
Both are far faster than can reasonably be used in most of the US most of the time so I figured that I didn't need the S and any extra performance would be wasted on me.

Your statement proves that there are different personalities that buy these cars, which is why there are numerous Porsche models to choose from. First off, we don't buy Porsche's for sitting in traffic, we buy them for the glorious moments and breaks in traffic where we can make the most fun we can out of what is (for all the other miserable drones on the road) a typically mundane commute. Secondly, I don't know the word "enough", it's not in my vocabulary. I have cars that have ridiculous amounts of power..... and they are an ABSOLUTE BLAST to drive. That's why they are so damn fun, because they are on the edge of obscene, and they make you grin at a 1/4-throttle, let alone full-throttle. That's good stuff, unless you've got one foot in the grave either in body or in spirit, in my opinion. There's no such thing as wasted performance, because you don't have to be going flat-out at 170mph in order to gain enjoyment from the performance potential of a car. I've got an open 1-mile straight leading to the entrance of my neighborhood, and that alone, gives me a grin twice a day that requires appropriate hardware. I'll be very satisfied with the performance of my 997S, BUT, the point at which I say that a car is fast "ENOUGH" is the point at which my feet are trembling, my knuckles are pasty white, and I'm almost paralyzed with fear!! LOL!!! THAT'S when I would finally say, "yep, that car is fast "enough"!! Of course, the same logic holds true with dirtbikes and boats...

great post. my sentiments exactly

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Feb 22, 2005 7:13:49 PM

KenH: Co-Pilot; Loc: Leesburg VA; Posts: 249, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 23, 2004; Reply to: med

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

"I've got an open 1-mile straight leading to the entrance of my neighborhood"

Unfortunately I don't, I live in an area in the US that has more police with radar guns than anywhere I have come across. And a ban on radar detectors.
And in that context I deemed the standard 997 to be fast enough.
However, I spend half my time in the UK (where I have an M3) and I drive at well over 100mph virtually every day. If I were to replace the M3 with a 997 in the UK I would go for the S. Pity they are so expensive there.
If I lived in France or Germany I would have a Turbo.
I would be thrown in jail in northern VA if I was caught doing anything like my UK speeds, whereas in England I have just been warned.
Horses for courses....

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Feb 22, 2005 7:30:43 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: med

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Hey, just next door to us is a Boxster forum full of fine enthusiasts who think their Boxsters and Boxster S's have "enough" power for "most" occassions. And I'm sure that there are S2000 forums with enthusiasts who think that car has "enough", and Miata forums, and Mini forums. All of those cars, to me, would make me feel like I'm dragging a parachute or towing a trailer behind the car, just ssssllllooowwwwww, regardless of how much speed it can carry through a corner. It's all perspective. One man's rocket is another's lawn tractor.

But back on topic, I think PS CA laid it out rather well. There may not be much difference in performance between the standard and the S, but there is enough difference and enough tangible content to more than justify the premium. Either car is well-bought, it's just a matter of where you sit on the performance junkie scale. Some think that .3-.4 seconds and 2-3 mph in the 1/4 mile is just a little. From my dragracing experience, it's a big step and a decent performance leap. Having built and modified my share of cars, those tenths and mph's don't come easy.

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Feb 22, 2005 7:43:01 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

KenH, I see what you're saying. But for me, it's not all about how fast I'm driving for an extended period, because in all honesty, I could drive 120 mph all day long in my pickup truck or a 1970 Mercury station wagon with a 429 if I were in an area conducive to it.

It's how quickly I can move up to speed, even if I'm not exceeding the posted limit, that winds my watch. I grab my pleasure in short spurts where I can get it, it doesn't always require a blatant busting of the local laws. But your point is valid, in that I prefer the naturally-aspirated S to the Turbo, because of its "squirtier" nature.

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Feb 22, 2005 7:46:17 PM

KenH: Co-Pilot; Loc: Leesburg VA; Posts: 249, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 23, 2004; Reply to: med

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Then the interesting question in my mind seems to me to be "why did the S buyers not buy something faster?"
There are lots of faster cars than the S - and faster 911s too.
I can only assume that they decided the the S was in fact, fast enough for them ...
Or, to put it another way, that the 997S horse matched their personal course.

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Feb 22, 2005 8:02:24 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: KenH

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

I was just explaining that over lunch, as somebody was asking me why I just don't go back to driving my S351 Saleen (507 h.p., 3400 lbs) and save a bunch of money.

Well, I think we ALL know why. There's more to a car than just thrust. There's driving dynamics, chassis, steering, brakes, quality, refinement, and everything else that makes the 911 a magical car. I'm buying the 997S for many reasons, because it is the finest sports car that I can buy for the money. I want what the 911 offers as a complete package, I'm not getting it just for two or three specific aspects. If only the standard Carrera were available, that is what I would likely be buying. But, with that said....I'm not going to leave all of the gear and h.p. that comes with the S sit on the table when it's plainly available, and at a fair markup that I can afford and easily justify in my head. When it comes to "bang-for-the-buck" debates, they can degenerate into a shallow argument when people don't understand cars from an engineering and craftsmanship standpoint. Otherwise, I'd build a corner-carving 800 h.p. 1975 Ford Pinto on a $15K budget, and save the rest of my money for cheap beer and ugly hookers.

Does that make sense???

No, I'm in love with the 911 for everything it represents. However, when Porsche rolls out two models, less than $10K apart, with all of the upgrades involved, THAT'S when the base model becomes "not enough" for me. And when/if that performance kit comes out, I'll likely be gunning for that, in my quest to maximize my affinity for my car.

Lastly, there are not many options for cars faster than the 997S!! At least, not under $100K, that's for sure. The Corvette?? I don't like it for a laundry list of valid/personal reasons.

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Feb 22, 2005 8:24:52 PM

PS CA: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 833, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 13, 2003; Reply to: PS CA

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Quote:
PS CA said:
There is a $9800 difference between an S and non-S. For that $9800 you get 30HP, larger brakes, Bi-Xenon headlights ($1090), PASM ($1990), 19" wheels ($1550). To purchase the "tuned engine" option for the 996 (which increased HP from 320 to 345) cost $13990. I don't know what the larger brakes cost, but I assume they would be $500+ if you could purchase them. So, in theory, you get $19120 worth of extras for $9800. That is a relative bargain. I have seen many people spec their 997 with 19" wheels, PASM and Bi-Xenon headlights ($4630 total) so they could have got an extra 30 HP and turbo brakes for only $5170. As I said, I feel the S option is a good deal but only you know whether it is worth it for yourself.

Phil

I missed the following items that you get when you purchase the $9800 S package. They are in addition to those I mentioned above: 1. Higher performing cooling pump and an oil/water heat exchanger with two additional cooling layers (Value $?). 2. Self-adjusting clutch (Value $?). 3. Aluminum finished instrument panel dials ($860 value). 4. Sports steering wheel (Value $?). 5. Aluminum look interior trim (Value $?).

I feel these represent a lot of goodies for the dollar (in addition to the increased performance of the S).

Phil

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Feb 22, 2005 8:39:05 PM

med: Pilot; Loc: London; Posts: 394, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 4, 2004; Reply to: PS CA

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Quote:
PS CA said:
Quote:
PS CA said:
There is a $9800 difference between an S and non-S. For that $9800 you get 30HP, larger brakes, Bi-Xenon headlights ($1090), PASM ($1990), 19" wheels ($1550). To purchase the "tuned engine" option for the 996 (which increased HP from 320 to 345) cost $13990. I don't know what the larger brakes cost, but I assume they would be $500+ if you could purchase them. So, in theory, you get $19120 worth of extras for $9800. That is a relative bargain. I have seen many people spec their 997 with 19" wheels, PASM and Bi-Xenon headlights ($4630 total) so they could have got an extra 30 HP and turbo brakes for only $5170. As I said, I feel the S option is a good deal but only you know whether it is worth it for yourself.

Phil

I missed the following items that you get when you purchase the $9800 S package. They are in addition to those I mentioned above: 1. Higher performing cooling pump and an oil/water heat exchanger with two additional cooling layers (Value $?). 2. Self-adjusting clutch (Value $?). 3. Aluminum finished instrument panel dials ($860 value). 4. Sports steering wheel (Value $?). 5. Aluminum look interior trim (Value $?).

I feel these represent a lot of goodies for the dollar (in addition to the increased performance of the S).

Phil

Also, residual value will defiantly be stronger, adding more value to the above list

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Feb 22, 2005 8:58:21 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: med

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

For all those who will cry foul at the residual value comment, please research Boxster & Boxster S resale values before you rant... It's a valid point, unless resale value will never be an issue for you.

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Feb 22, 2005 9:51:02 PM

KenH: Co-Pilot; Loc: Leesburg VA; Posts: 249, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 23, 2004; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

There seems to be little that I can add.
Everyone here seems to be able to rationalize their own purchasing decision very comfortably and most seem happy to denigrate (sometimes obliquely) the decisions of others that were different. Especially if the decisions of others were less bullish (= slightly slower).
I think Leon Festinger became moderately famous by analyzing this behaviour.
And one assumes that Porsche has become rich by exploiting it!
And as for resale values of a model that is too new to have any known patterns, my wife would have a lot to say about that, especially after hearing my tales (year after year) of how good an investment each of my new cars is going to be.
And as for the "$860 value" of aluminum finished instrument panel dials - what are you guys smoking? If you wouldn't pay $860 for them they are worth nothing.

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Feb 22, 2005 9:56:38 PM

BD 997: Veteran; Loc: Boston, MA USA; Posts: 833, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 16, 2005; Reply to: med

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

I got a standard 997 with PASM and 19" Sport Wheels...im happy :-)

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Feb 22, 2005 10:11:27 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: BD 997

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Sorry, I flunked "Politically Correct 101" my freshman year... I know I'm not a pillar of tact, but conversely, I can take your fair and polite insinuation in stride. Truce..

As for resale values, I'm not your average armchair prophet. The collector car hobby is my life and my business. I could generalize over a wide spectrum of cars, but the history of the 911, by itself, is indicative enough to forecast future trends based on performance and equipment. Nothing is certain, of course, but there's a point where you can make a fairly sure bet without sweating a bead....

I'm sure that everybody is happy with their car, and again, I probably got carried away. I'm very passionate about performance...

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Feb 22, 2005 10:16:43 PM

PS CA: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 833, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 13, 2003; Reply to: KenH

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Quote:
KenH said:
And as for the "$860 value" of aluminum finished instrument panel dials - what are you guys smoking? If you wouldn't pay $860 for them they are worth nothing.

I personally wouldn't pay that for them, but a lot of people do. Here is the section from Porsche's order guide with a couple of the available colors:

XFH Instrument Dials Speed Yellow
XFJ XFE
XFF XFG
XFD
Conflicts With
Must Pick One
Requires
$860 $860
XFJ XFE
XFF XFG
XFD
XFJ Instrument Dials Carrara White
XFE XFF
XFG XFH
XFD
Conflicts With
Must Pick One
Requires
$860 $860
XFE XFF
XFG XFH
XFD

I think you would find that many people have paid extra for different colored gauges. How many people paid $800 for footwell lights on 996's?

Phil

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Feb 22, 2005 10:31:37 PM

PS CA: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 833, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 13, 2003; Reply to: BD 997

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Quote:
BD 997 said:
I got a standard 997 with PASM and 19" Sport Wheels...im happy :-)

And I love my 296 HP 996. I have ordered a 997S but do not think any less of the 997.

My point is that while many buyers are not seeking the added performance of the 997S there is more to it than just that. It comes with a long list of goodies for the money. So, it is not simply $9800 for 30 HP for which you may or may not feel the difference. Just as some choose full leather and others are perfectly happy with partial leather these are decisions we all have to make. There will be many 997's with more stuff on them than the one I am ordering. That doesn't make mine worse, it makes it the one I wanted. You order/buy the car that suits you.

Phil

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Feb 22, 2005 10:37:02 PM

SoCalHoosier: Veteran; Loc: California , United States; Posts: 896, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 13, 2003; Reply to: PS CA

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

I'm still laughing that one of you guys actually mentioned Porsche and Value in the same sentence.

Simply stated the 997S is what we should have been given as a successor to the 996...PERIOD. Unfortunately we're paying a premium for this "value".

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Feb 22, 2005 10:51:16 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: SoCalHoosier

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Value received for value paid includes tangibles AND intanglibles. This Porsche is heavy on both fronts. If it were not a good value, I would not have had to WAIT 6 months after writing my earnest check to finally receive my car!! LOL!! Sure, we may be nuts, but that's a different argument.

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Feb 23, 2005 12:49:57 PM

Dilinger: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Athens,Greece , Greece; Posts: 2034, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 23, 2004; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

i like a lot, all of your arguments guys. This is the purpose of a forum finally. To hold different views from different cultures and persons.

I think of the S as the best option but for me was not an option due to tax regulations(it was not a matter of money)
so i ended up with the "standard" 997 which is not so "standard" at all, if compared to the sports car market.

By the way i loved BD997's argument
"i ordered the 997 carrera and i m happy with it"

Thats peace of mind and pure satisfaction!! Good man i m happy for you.

By the way are you satisfied with the 19 inches?

I assume you had them put with the delivery of the car so you have not driven it on 18 inches to tell me the difference.

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Feb 23, 2005 1:52:01 PM

stone: Co-Pilot; Loc: Taunton, UK; Posts: 216, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 13, 2004; Reply to: med

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Better to have a standard 997 than none at all, but if you can afford it go for the S, its a real blast. I'm lucky and live in the country with long sweping windy roads, every gear change is 4-7000. But I too would love more ...the turbo will no doubt be a dream, but alas the pennies just arn't there - so live life to the max, and enjoy it while you can.

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Feb 23, 2005 3:06:22 PM

BD 997: Veteran; Loc: Boston, MA USA; Posts: 833, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 16, 2005; Reply to: stone

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

I went to Porsche showroom....there were 2 997's a GT Silver S and a arctic silver C2 (with PASM and 19" rims).... money is no object but I got the non S arctic silver... Because I liked the Artic silver better than GT... but thats just me...this is just a warm up car...im number 3 on the list for the turbo...cant wait

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Feb 26, 2005 12:23:29 PM

bear: Newbie; Loc: france; Posts: 5, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 19, 2005; Reply to: Dilinger

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

I tried both of them, as test ride, about 300 km each.
The S is more impressive and funny : the exhaust sounds high and delicious over 5000 rev, and the handling seems more brutal, but only when you want...

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Porsche	Back to basics - 996 GT3 RS	6/11/23 5:13 PM CGX car nut	140739	144
BMW M	2024 BMW M3 CS Official Now	12/29/23 9:04 AM RC	117222	303
Motor Sp.	2023 Formula One	12/19/23 5:38 AM Whoopsy	108392	685
Others	Valkyrie final design?	4/28/23 2:45 AM Rossi	99571	219
Porsche	2022 992 Safari Model	3/7/24 4:22 PM Whoopsy	84023	239
AMG	Mercedes-Benz W124 500E aka Porsche typ 2758	2/23/24 10:03 PM blueflame	75013	297
Porsche	992 GT3 RS	3/3/24 7:22 PM Whoopsy	53419	314
Motor Sp.	Porsche 963	3/16/24 9:27 PM Whoopsy	24931	237
Ferrari	Ferrari 296 GTB (830PS, Hybrid V6)	1/21/24 4:29 PM GT-Boy	21143	103
BMW M	2022 BMW M5 CS	4/8/24 1:43 PM Ferdie	19441	140
AMG	G63 sold out	9/15/23 7:38 PM Nico997	16567	120
AMG	[2022] Mercedes-AMG SL	4/23/24 1:24 PM RC	13575	225

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The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

Re: The 997 carrera opposed to the "silver badged S" !!

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