Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma - Page1

Feb 18, 2005 1:19:22 PM

ACA: Junior; Loc: UK; Posts: 52, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 15, 2005

-20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

In about two weeks time I have to finalise my options for my 997CS due June 05. The problem is I don't know whether to go for -20MM or PASM. There is no -20mm fitted demo in the UK to test drive so I have only experienced PASM and did not considered sport progamme to be uncomfortable.
My gut instict is to go for -20MM having previously owned R5GT Turbo with sports suspension, 968CS, 993 with H&R coil over kit and currently driving Ren Clio 172cup. However the sales exec. at my local dealership says the -20mm is best left for track driven cars only and would be too stiff for day to day driving. Any comments anyone has on this matter would much appreciated, especially if you have driven 997CS with -20mm option.
PS sorry this is such a long post.

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Feb 18, 2005 1:30:57 PM

jjr1: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 213, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2002; Reply to: ACA

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

Your local sales exec speaks out of his rectum. I have had my car for a 1000 miles and don't even notice its stiffness and it is certainly no track special type of stiffness. Think Honda Integra Type R but without the noise.

I much prefer the 20mm drop as well because the car feels far more alive and pointy. It could of course be in my imagination but hey thats what I think.

As for whether I have tested it on rough roads have a look at the roads around Nottingham ;-)

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Feb 18, 2005 2:59:14 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: jjr1

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

I haven't tested the -20mm myself...yet, but from what I hear from those that have, its roughly about the same as the PASM in Sport Mode, and judging by your previous cars, you centainly seem be of the -20mm type.

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Feb 18, 2005 3:19:37 PM

muhri: Pilot; Loc: Saudi Arabia , Saudi Arabia; Posts: 389, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 30, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

I have my car now with 1000km on the odo and it has the -20mm suspension - its by no means stiff to the point where you can't take it and the best thing is to inflate the tires to the recommended 2.3bar front and 2.6bar rear for city driving. When you want to go the track you can inflate them a bit more say 2.6front and 3.0rear and then its a bit stiffer but razor sharp. That's my hubmle opinion..

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Feb 18, 2005 4:23:28 PM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: muhri

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

I've never drivin a -20mm (cause I'm in the U.S.) but PASM Sport is pretty rough on most streets here in the Southern California. Whenever I take friends out for a ride, I warn them that I'm switching on Sport because of the harshness. Whenever I find myself on nice roads however, PASM Sport is turned on. So, for me, PASM is great, especially if you intend to drive your car daily. If given a choice right now, I would stick with PASM over the -20mm.

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Feb 18, 2005 6:00:50 PM

dedam: Pilot; Loc: Holland , United States; Posts: 464, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 27, 2002; Reply to: SoCal Alan

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

-20mm Sports Suspension is no fish and no meat!!!!!!

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Feb 18, 2005 6:05:44 PM

BD 997: Veteran; Loc: Boston, MA USA; Posts: 833, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 16, 2005; Reply to: dedam

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

huh...

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Feb 18, 2005 6:16:55 PM

madadd: Co-Pilot; Loc: uk; Posts: 240, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 4, 2005; Reply to: ACA

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

My 997s is ordered for March 06 delivery. I have to confirm final details in October.

In speaking to my dealer, I will be sticking with PASM.

For the following reasons :

a)The 1cm difference in height is fairly irrelevant looks wise
b)Even on the ring, the 20mm car only lapped a second or 2 quicker.
c)Even though I drive like an [censored] most of the time, I do drive motorways, and sometimes am not in the mood to drive fast, and would prefer a more comfortable setting
d) The dealer indicated that based on current demand, I would most likely get less money at trade in if i didn't have PASM.
e) PASM does do some interesting things which can help make the car safer/easier to control in adverse situations

So there you go. For me the decision is easy. (although I still have 7 months to change my mind!)

Cheer,

Add.

P.S. I currently drive a Skyline with rock hard suspension, so I do like a hard car! Bit i just can't see the sense in this instance.

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Feb 18, 2005 8:37:50 PM

gian61: Co-Pilot; Loc: Pavia , Italy; Posts: 189, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 23, 2005; Reply to: madadd

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

997S on Nordschleife

PASM normal 8' 05"

PASM sport 8' 02"

-20mm 7' 59"

997 325Hp
standard chassis 8' 15"

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Feb 18, 2005 9:06:20 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

Sport Auto claims that they achieved better track times with the "soft" setting of the PASM and not the "sport" setting. Apparently the dampers are getting too stiff.
The 20 mm chassis is a different story, SPORT AUTO promises a "surprise" when the Supertest will be published but a little birdie already told me a part of that surprise: the 20 mm chassis makes the 997 Carrera S faster than the GT3 Mk1 and 996 Turbo in Hockenheim (Kleiner Kurs). If true, this is impressive. 1 min 14 sec sound pretty fast to me, especially for a 355 HP car.

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Feb 19, 2005 4:30:10 PM

vtrader: Veteran; Loc: Los Angeles; Posts: 1086, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 6, 2004; Reply to: gian61

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

Quote:
gian61 said:
997S on Nordschleife

PASM normal 8' 05"

PASM sport 8' 02"

-20mm 7' 59"

997 325Hp
standard chassis 8' 15"

Just for reference, what was the latest 996 times at Nordschleife. Or is there a website that least the best time for all cars?

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Feb 19, 2005 4:47:22 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: vtrader

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

Latest tested time in SPORT AUTO: 8 min 17 sec for the Nordschleife (996 Carrera 2 facelift with 18'' and 285s on the rear). Hockenheim (Kleiner Kurs): 1 min 17,1 sec.
If somebody thinks that this car may have had a weak engine, the 0-125 mph accel. time has been stopped at 17.3 sec., only around one second slowlier than on the 997 Carrera S.

I think that the 20 mm chassis is a great achievement, especially with the limited slip differential which comes with it. Whoever is a very sporty driver and has the chance to get the 20 mm chassis in his country, GO for it, you won't regret it. PASM is a great compromise but compromise stays compromise. But still: a PASM equipped car is much faster on the track than a 996.

Also interesting: the tested 996 Carrera 2 had a weight of 1467 kg, a tested 997 Carrera S had "only" 1455 kg. Both values are MEASURED values, not factory claims.
The tested 997 Carrera S did 1 min 15,6 sec in Hockenheim (Kleiner Ring) but Sport Auto mentioned that the test conditions were very bad because of extremely high outside air/asphalt temperatures. I suppose a PASM equipped car should do Hockenheim (Kleiner Ring) in around 1 min 15 sec, maybe even slightly better. The 20 mm chassis equipped car is rumoured (test results will be published in Sport Auto as soon as they get the chance to test the car on the Nordschleife) to have achieved 1 min 14 seconds in Hockenheim (Kleiner Ring). Better time than the 996 Turbo and GT3 Mk1.

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Feb 19, 2005 4:53:09 PM

jo996: Newbie; Loc: Germany, Cologne; Posts: 10, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 11, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

My S has the 20mm option. From experience, I fully agree with RC.

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Feb 19, 2005 5:08:40 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: jo996

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

Hi Jo!
Welcome to Rennteam!

Koln was the first city I visitet in Germany, impressive Cathedrale!

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Feb 19, 2005 5:42:47 PM

SoCal Alan: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Orange County , United States; Posts: 7268, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 6, 2004; Reply to: jo996

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

The PASM Normal setting is a pretty sweet drive. I'm really happy with the option to switch suspension settings back and forth. I'm guessing that with -20mm, you will always wonder what PASM Normal would feel like. With PASM you get the best of both suspensions. Believe me, I was one of the ones pushing back my order, waiting for -20mm to arrive in the U.S until I couldn't wait any longer.

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Feb 19, 2005 8:01:25 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: dedam

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

Quote:
dedam said:
-20mm Sports Suspension is no fish and no meat!!!!!!

Huh?

Guys, you should make the trip to mainland Europe to discover the quality of the -20mm suspension. I don't know the PASM system but it can hardly get any better than the sport version.

I am actually surprised to hear people which have driven rock-solid cars so far opt for the PASM for comfort reasons! I don't know any car that connects the driver that much with the car while providing a significant amount of comfort - sure it's no luxo cruiser. I am just curious how this option will affect resale value!

The Nürburgring has a topography that is more similiar to a curvy and bumpy B-road than a modern flat racetrack so it is no surprise to me that the sport mode might not improve the laptimes significantly - if at all! Changing the damper rate doesn't do any advantage on this track, several people participating in the 24hrs have discovered this just as much as SportAuto in the Mercedes SL test, which admittedly cause a more nervous handling on racetracks in general and might be a marketing trick.

mirk

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Feb 19, 2005 8:46:15 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

The -20mm is the way to go for the LSD alone. LSD is not available any other way...

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Feb 19, 2005 8:47:53 PM

gian61: Co-Pilot; Loc: Pavia , Italy; Posts: 189, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 23, 2005; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

Always on Nordschleife:

996 c4 320Hp 8' 23"

996 Turbo 420Hp 7' 56"

996 GT2 462Hp 7' 46"

996 GT3 Mk2 381Hp 7' 54"

996 GT3 Mk1 360Hp 8' 03"

996 GT3RS 381Hp with Pzero Corsa tires 7' 47"

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Feb 19, 2005 9:11:19 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: gian61

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

Some comments on the lap times:

996GT2 (7:46) - Von Saurma driving, MkI GT2 vewrsion no lap time for the MkII.

996GT3RS (7:47) - Rohrl driving. Done with R-compound Corsa System and same lap time as the F360Stradale with same tires.

996GT3 MKII (7:54) - Saurma driving. Rohrl would probably drop a couple seconds more.

996GT3 MKI (7:56) - Rohrl driving.

996TT (7:56) - Saurma. This was back in 2000. Current build Turbos seem to put out a bit more HP and tires have come a long way since then, so probaly a couple of seconds lower for a recent build TT, not to mention a X50-TT with X73.

997S -20mm (7:59) - Rohrl driving. SUB-8Min, on street tires, over 1400kg and only 355HP!

997S PASM-Sport (8:02) - Rohrl

997S PASM-Normal (8:05) - Rohrl

997C2 (8:15) - Rohrl

996C2 MkII-320HP (8:17) - In 2002, no info on which driver.

996C2 MkI-300HP (8:17) - Back in 1998 and no info on which driver, looking at the 997C2 times, not the difference I'd expect to the 996C2, the 6 years older outgoing model.

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Feb 20, 2005 12:46:57 AM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Some comments on the lap times:

...997S -20mm (7:59) - Rohrl driving. SUB-8Min, on street tires, over 1400kg and only 355HP!
...
996C2 MkII-320HP (8:17) - In 2002, no info on which driver.

996C2 MkI-300HP (8:17) - Back in 1998 and no info on which driver, looking at the 997C2 times, not the difference I'd expect to the 996C2, the 6 years older outgoing model.

It is strongly dependent on the driver and his experience on the Nordschleife.

I am pretty sure that the 996 C2s were either driven by von Saurma or J. Übler, another member of the SportAuto crew. I do remember the testreports and it was quite funny that the Mk2 Carrera achieved similiar laptimes as the previous model, despite higher power rating.

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Feb 20, 2005 12:59:26 AM

TopherV: Veteran; Loc: Orange County, Southern California; Posts: 1121, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 29, 2003; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

Soo since its just ...

-Modified features include shorter and firmer springs at front and rear (20 mm lower than standard 911 Carrera), new anti-roll bars with greater torsional strength, and firmer damper settings + LSD ..

... maybe it can be retrofitted
if its possible to get a car without PASM

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Feb 20, 2005 1:06:21 AM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8234, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: TopherV

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

Quote:
TopherV said:
... maybe it can be retrofitted
if its possible to get a car without PASM

Uh, I think it might be easier to wait for the car to be officially sold in the US.

In fact I doubt that it will come to US shores in this configuration, bearing in mind the difficulties with ground clearance on the CGTs!

Possibly the LSD will become an option, just as on the 996 of the later MYs!

Importing cars from Canada to Europe seems to be quite uncomplicated, so maybe the other way 'round is an option as well? You don't have to change the speedo from KPH to MPH.

Anybody experience with that?

I don't think the PASM system is a bad deal - not at all! I just imagine that the crispness the -20mm suspension delivers is worth the slightly harsher ride. You should also bear in mind that e.g. RC's car has the PCCB system installed. I am pretty sure that they positively contribute to the handling!

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Feb 20, 2005 1:12:06 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: TopherV

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

I believe the anti-roll bars (sway bars) are the same in PASM vs -20mm. But the only non-PASM car in the US is the base 997, but you are looking at one hell of a custom job to retrofit the LSD and build it into the PSM, if posible at all

And if you go with an easy intall coilover set for the base 997 so as to bypass PASM in search for sportier handling, then you are missing the 997S engine and brakes perfromance wise. Its a loose-loose situation, I wonder why -20mm is not offered in US

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Feb 20, 2005 2:46:04 AM

TopherV: Veteran; Loc: Orange County, Southern California; Posts: 1121, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 29, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
I believe the anti-roll bars (sway bars) are the same in PASM vs -20mm. But the only non-PASM car in the US is the base 997, but you are looking at one hell of a custom job to retrofit the LSD and build it into the PSM, if posible at all
And if you go with an easy intall coilover set for the base 997 so as to bypass PASM in search for sportier handling, then you are missing the 997S engine and brakes perfromance wise. Its a loose-loose situation, I wonder why -20mm is not offered in US

I got all my info that i previously posted straight from the Great Britain Porsche page

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Feb 20, 2005 9:02:12 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: TopherV

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

I'm not sure the text in the site is correct, who knows, I recall this posted by Trundle:

"PASM vs -20mm spring rates

spring rates ft.

PASM= 33 N/mm
-20mm= 36 N/mm

spring rates Rear

PASM = 56 N/mm
-20mm = Progressive 60/90 N/mm

Stabilizer Bar

Front
24 x 3.8 mm (same for both)

Rear
19,6 x2.6 mm (S same for both)"

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Feb 22, 2005 4:12:27 PM

ACA: Junior; Loc: UK; Posts: 52, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 15, 2005; Reply to: RC

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

Thanks for all your comments. I have decided to go for -20mm

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Feb 22, 2005 6:39:41 PM

jjr1: Co-Pilot; Loc:; Posts: 213, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 19, 2002; Reply to: ACA

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

You won't regret it one bit. I have the dropped version and it not only looks meaner than a regular version it goes better to

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Feb 22, 2005 10:26:26 PM

muhri: Pilot; Loc: Saudi Arabia , Saudi Arabia; Posts: 389, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 30, 2003; Reply to: jjr1

Re: -20mm Sports Suspension v's PASM Dilemma

ACA, you won't regret it

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