Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: I don't agree - Page1

Feb 11, 2003 5:02:54 PM

doncapecod: Co-Pilot; Loc: Cape Cod & Naples...USA; Posts: 219, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002

996 or 997 vs Mazda RX8

I was reading AW..little article on the RX8. A real 2+2 car sounds like something Porsche should have developed. Do you think they (Porsche) should develop a 2+2 derivative of the 911; should it be more like a little GT square-back, or do you think Porsche does not need a 2+2 SPORTS (not sporty) car in their lineup. Kinda like the 928 only slightly bigger rear seats.???

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Feb 11, 2003 5:15:26 PM

Grant: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Denver, CO , United States; Posts: 12586, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2002; Reply to: doncapecod

Re: 996 or 997 vs Mazda RX8

Don - I thought all of the 996 derivatives already were 2+2 (except GT2 and GT3 which have no rear seats)?

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Feb 11, 2003 6:15:58 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59592, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: doncapecod

Re: 996 or 997 vs Mazda RX8

Quote:
I was reading AW..little article on the RX8. A real 2+2 car sounds like something Porsche should have developed. Do you think they (Porsche) should develop a 2+2 derivative of the 911; should it be more like a little GT square-back, or do you think Porsche does not need a 2+2 SPORTS (not sporty) car in their lineup. Kinda like the 928 only slightly bigger rear seats.???

I don't think you can compare the RX-8 with the 996 or even 997. The RX-8 is more of a Boxster competitor...if any.

I'm still waiting for a real competitor from Japan: like a lightweight NSX-R or similar with a bi-turbo charged engine with minimum 400 HP. In my opinion, there are no interesting products coming from Japan right now. With the exception of the Honda S2000 maybe...

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Feb 11, 2003 6:37:13 PM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: 996 or 997 vs Mazda RX8

can't really agree... of course the RX8 is no competition to the 996 or to the boxster. but it's an interesting car with it's rotary engine and suicide doors. i would rather buy the mazda than a VW golf R32 or an audi TT.

IMO the main problem with high-powered cars from japan is that the japanese law limits the power which cars may produce. 280 HP is maximum as far as i am informed -- IMO honda, toyota etc would LOVE to produce high powered sports cars.

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Feb 11, 2003 9:11:00 PM

doncapecod: Co-Pilot; Loc: Cape Cod & Naples...USA; Posts: 219, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: zzboba

Re: 996 or 997 vs Mazda RX8

I did a lousy job of making my point. I know the Mazda is no competitor to a Porsche, and I know that the 996 is technically a 2+2. I was thinking along the lines of Porsche developing a 4 passenger (that's a better description) sports car like they were going to with the 989.

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Feb 11, 2003 10:20:26 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59592, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: doncapecod

Re: 996 or 997 vs Mazda RX8

Well, Porsche has a 4 passenger sports car...the Cayenne Turbo.

It outruns the 993 up to 125 mph on the straight line and is even faster in curves than many sporty limousines out there.

But I understand your point: maybe the fourth model should be a sporty looking limousine or real 4 passenger (two doors but more space in the rear) GT sports car. Maybe this is what we get from Porsche...the rumored Grand Tourismo.

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Feb 11, 2003 11:39:06 PM

doncapecod: Co-Pilot; Loc: Cape Cod & Naples...USA; Posts: 219, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: 996 or 997 vs Mazda RX8

THAT's what I was thinking of...something that would carry 4 people that would perform and LOOK like a sports car. No matter how good the Cayenne performance is it is still a TRUCK-like vehicle....and the word PERFORMANCE and SUV don't really go hand in hand. The word UTILITY goes hand in hand with the Cayenne no matter how well it performs. How cool is a fast truck??

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Feb 12, 2003 10:00:19 AM

zzboba: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Germany; Posts: 3115, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 8, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: 996 or 997 vs Mazda RX8

RC,

what's happening? you call the cayenne a "sports car" ??

[no, i don't want to start this discussion again, i was just wondering

]

cheers; zz

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Feb 13, 2003 2:15:13 AM

ksalno: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 120, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 21, 2002; Reply to: doncapecod

Re: 996 or 997 vs Mazda RX8

Don,

Have you seen the cover of the most recent 911/Porsche World? I think that was the one. They have a picture of a design study of a 911 4-door. It was much, much better looking than the RX-8, which to my eye is apalling. I think Chris Bangle must be moonlighting with Mazda.

Karl

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Feb 13, 2003 5:20:04 AM

doncapecod: Co-Pilot; Loc: Cape Cod & Naples...USA; Posts: 219, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: ksalno

Re: 996 or 997 vs Mazda RX8

Karl, is there any way you could scan it to me?

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Feb 13, 2003 8:27:08 AM

william: Senior; Loc: New York/Hong Kong , Hong Kong; Posts: 670, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2002; Reply to: doncapecod

Re: I don't agree

Quote:
No matter how good the Cayenne performance is it is still a TRUCK-like vehicle....and the word PERFORMANCE and SUV don't really go hand in hand

I don't think it is important whether the word 'SUV' and 'Performance' go hand in hand. 20 years ago, people can't even imagine the word 'luxury 4 door' go hand in hand with 'Performance'. Look at today, C32, RS4, M5, E55..etc

Its a niche that people have to start getting used to. Because soon enough, 4 door sport sedan will be replaced by SUV. Wait two more generation, High Performance SUV will be very mature.

The truth is, SUV will never out perform a sport car no matter what kind of technology in it. Cayenne, X5 4.6is, ML55 is just a high performance luxury vehicle with off road ability. Sport car will still remind a sport car.

For everyday use from point a to point b, Cayenne can easily be as quick as or even quicker than any sport car depending on the road condition. New York for example, potholes everywhere, Cayenne have great advantage over a Ferrari 360. This is generally the purpose of a high performance SUV. I can easily outrun a Mclaren F1 with my X5 4.6 in New York City road.

Its very silly to hear people complain about High Peformance SUV is sport car wanna be. Thats not the intention at all!!

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Feb 13, 2003 8:57:26 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59592, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: william

Re: I don't agree

Quote:
Its very silly to hear people complain about High Peformance SUV is sport car wanna be. Thats not the intention at all!!

You're right William but I understand Don too. Porsche advertises the Cayenne as a Porsche and people associate the brand name Porsche with sports cars. This is actually a real problem because, as you stated completely right, the Cayenne is no sports car.
Unfortunately I think that many Cayenne buyers think they buy a SUV sports car but there is no such thing.
Maybe you and me view things much more realistic because we both own a real sports car and a high power SUV. Our ML55 is no sports car, not even close to it. But it provides great fun as a family car and this is what counts to me.
I'd love to drive a SUV with 500 HP, the only concern I have is fuel consumption.

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Feb 13, 2003 12:29:15 PM

doncapecod: Co-Pilot; Loc: Cape Cod & Naples...USA; Posts: 219, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: I don't agree

From my point of view I would LOVE a 4 passenger (not 2+2) Porsche. Perhaps Porsche can use a modified version of the Cayenne platform to eventually produce this. I just think there is a market for a good looking, high performance sports (as opposed to sporty) car.

Look what Audi is able to accomplish with the Pike's Peak concept off the Cayenne platform. While it may not look as svelt as a sports car it is definitely a bona-fide sports vehicle that also has utility rather than being a high performance truck.

I guess I'm talking about aesthetics more than anything else...but wouldn't you rather have this rather than a Cayenne, if it were a Porsche?, that is.

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Feb 13, 2003 12:33:13 PM

Futch: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: EU , United Kingdom; Posts: 4759, Gallery; Registered on: May 14, 2002; Reply to: doncapecod

Re: I don't agree

I love the Pikes Peaks, IMO, it looks gorgeous!
I heard rumors that Lamborghini will bring this car to production in the next three years?
Fanch.
PS: Spent the WE in a ski resort in the french Alps.
And appart from the amazing conditions, I saw three Cayenne there (2 S and one dark blue Turbo) all with french number plates, it is selling well!

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Feb 13, 2003 1:48:43 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59592, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: doncapecod

Re: I don't agree

Quote:
Look what Audi is able to accomplish with the Pike's Peak concept off the Cayenne platform.

Well, the Pike's Peak uses the Touareg platform, there is no Cayenne platform.

The Cayenne also uses the Touareg platform. The VW Touareg comes soon with a 4.2 V8 to the US, a tough competitor to the Cayenne S if you ask me.
I don't like the look of the Cayenne but I like the look of the Audi Pikes Peak and even the look of the VW Touareg.
So if Porsche gets the design of the Cayenne right (sooner or later they have to), this might be a car for me.
I'm not sure I want to move my family (wife and two kids) in a 2-door sportscar with tiny seats in the rear.

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Feb 13, 2003 2:01:57 PM

ksalno: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 120, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 21, 2002; Reply to: doncapecod

Re: 996 or 997 vs Mazda RX8

Don,

I'll give it a crack when I am home this weekend.

Karl

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Feb 13, 2003 3:56:52 PM

Alan(NJ): Pilot; Loc: Paramus NJ USA; Posts: 403, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 29, 2002; Reply to: doncapecod

Don, I totally agree

I would love to see a Porsche 4 passenger vehicle. Even if it were as "mundane" as a M3 or M5 competitor. Porsche steering, handling and braking in a sleek 4 seater - drop in that Cayenne V8 turbo and a SMG style transmission with awd - sell it well equipped for under 100K and with a vehicle weight of < 1700 kgm - I'll place my order now (did I say sleek, oh yeah!)

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Feb 13, 2003 8:20:15 PM

doncapecod: Co-Pilot; Loc: Cape Cod & Naples...USA; Posts: 219, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: Alan(NJ)

Re: Don, I totally agree

FWIW, more Pike's Peak. Man, I really like it. Can even see a shortened 4 passenger. Just don't like the name Pikes Peak, tho...have to think of something better!

http://www.fototime.com/inv/F7AD7A9ED648399

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Feb 13, 2003 8:21:20 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: doncapecod

Re: I don't agree

Hi Don,

You are not talking about only aesthetics, though still a concept car for the Detroit Motor Show, if it makes it into production, it will be equipped with a 500HP version of the RS6 V8 TT engine! and an adaptive neumatic suspension with Audi's Quattro AWD) so it should outperform the Cayenne TT too if they can keep the weight similar to the Cayenne's

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Feb 13, 2003 9:38:22 PM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59592, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Alan(NJ)

Re: Don, I totally agree

Quote:
I would love to see a Porsche 4 passenger vehicle. Even if it were as "mundane" as a M3 or M5 competitor. Porsche steering, handling and braking in a sleek 4 seater - drop in that Cayenne V8 turbo and a SMG style transmission with awd - sell it well equipped for under 100K and with a vehicle weight of < 1700 kgm - I'll place my order now (did I say sleek, oh yeah!)

Hi Alan.

To be honest: the most "logical" step towards a new Porsche model would be a limousine and not the rumored Grand Tourismo. A Porsche 4-door limousine, classy look (I hope they don't use the Cayenne designer

), a high power V8 with 500 HP and less than 1700 kg weight...would be a bestseller. Not all family guys want to buy a 2.5 tons Cayenne.

Don't get me wrong: Porsche is a sports car company and they should stay that way. But why not build a sporty 4-door sedan...would be much more "credible" as a sports car than a SUV.

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Feb 13, 2003 9:50:36 PM

doncapecod: Co-Pilot; Loc: Cape Cod & Naples...USA; Posts: 219, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 6, 2002; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: I don't agree

Carlos, I know...I read the article. Isn't that great? I hope it's produced. Somehow I get the feeling that Porsche is coming out on the short end of the stick re uses of this platform. Granted it belongs to VW (I guess), but who knows what goes on between those 2 companies with their interfamily connections. I don't know what Dr. Piech is doing since he left VW, but who knows what these guys are doing together.

As long as they don't make a Porsche on a Passat platform. UGH!

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Feb 13, 2003 10:09:07 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: doncapecod

Re: I don't agree

Yeah, who knows with these corporations... after what we've seen that happened in the soap opera of the feud for Rolls-Roice/Bentley between BMW and VW, I don't get surprised easily anymore

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