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    Feb 9, 2005 1:24:22 PM

    RCA
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    997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Just got this in today: the 997 Turbo is expected as a MY 2007 car around early summer 2006. Power should be around 480-490 HP in the base car, good news if true.
    The not so good news: due to the optional(?) DSG gearbox and other features, the weight is rumoured to increase by around 40-60 kg. But this shouldn't be a problem, another rumour indicates that a 997 Turbo prototype already did below 7 min 50 sec on the Nordschleife and the setup isn't finished yet.

    As always with rumours: take them with a grain of salt and DO NOT make your ordering or buying decisons based on such rumours. We may get more "accurate" rumours than others but this doesn't mean that we get the truth.

    Feb 9, 2005 1:36:22 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    490HP would be great! just what the doctor ordered
    I agree, Porsche would make a mistake if the underpowered the Turbo, the Turbo competes in a class were HP is very important, more so that in the other 911 models, and I think they know that very well.

    I'm hoping the weight doesn't increase as runmoprs state, I was hoping the active diferential AWD would be lighter than the viscous-coupling AWD of the 996TT and compensate a bit. The DSG gearbox should be the same weight as the manual since its a sequential.

    The final 997TT should definately drop bellow the 7:50, since thats what the 500HP Gallardo did, and we know the Porsche Turbo type 997 s going to be faster than the Gallardo and F430 at the track. Can't wait for the nurburgring and hockenheim tests and comparisons between these, hopefully Sport Auto will deliver

    Feb 9, 2005 1:43:27 PM

    Ron (Houston)M
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Thanks RC, good to hear the rumored power. You mentioned
    Quote:
    Power should be around 480-490 HP in the base car, good news if true.

    .
    What does base mean? there will be an "S" with more power? That would be great .

    Do you happen to have some details regarding their DSG gearbox?

    Feb 9, 2005 3:27:05 PM

    yarub1
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Just got this in today: the 997 Turbo is expected as a MY 2007 car around early summer 2006. Power should be around 480-490 HP in the base car, good news if true.
    The not so good news: due to the optional(?) DSG gearbox and other features, the weight is rumoured to increase by around 40-60 kg. But this shouldn't be a problem, another rumour indicates that a 997 Turbo prototype already did below 7 min 50 sec on the Nordschleife and the setup isn't finished yet.

    As always with rumours: take them with a grain of salt and DO NOT make your ordering or buying decisons based on such rumours. We may get more "accurate" rumours than others but this doesn't mean that we get the truth.



    Thanks for the info Can we expect the Turbo convertable at the same time?

    Feb 9, 2005 3:34:25 PM

    Bitko
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    I really hope the weight would not incerase, cause the new Gallardo is going to have 600hp.

    Feb 9, 2005 3:45:39 PM

    997TT Offline
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    I read in an issue of Evo that Lamborghini is expected to make a lightweight, "SV" type Gallardo, so the extra weight wouldn't be good during comparisons, regardless of power.

    Feb 9, 2005 4:27:51 PM

    MKW
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Bring on the RWD , lighter , active differential 997 Turbo ,PAG, to compete with the RWD F430 and the rumored RWD Gallardo . The sports car world views these three cars as " comparable " in the sub-exotic marketplace - so let's see what each ( PAG, Ferrari-FIAT, Lambo-VWAG )can do in the classic RWD configuration with their latest technologies incl seq manual transmissions, stabilty control , active diffs , etc.

    Feb 9, 2005 6:46:18 PM

    Joost
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Ron, I think RC meant that the 490 hp is expected to be delivered by the norma 997 tt. Of course there will be a powerkit available later, and the power of that beast will hopefully exceede the 500 hp barrier... at least, I cant think of other reasons to cut it off at 490.
    -Joost-

    Feb 9, 2005 6:56:55 PM

    RR4
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Even if it is 490hp, it is 490 for 2007, thats 2 years away, at least for us here in NA. By that time the 430 will already have had a power boost to 500 or more.

    And the extra weight doesn't excite me.

    Nothing really excites me about this car.

    To me this 997 sounds like an underpowered M5 with a bolt on aerokit. I mean come on.
    500HP is absolutely no feat for a turbo charged car. Guys are getting 450hp out of their C2 with a supercharger they install in their garage on a saturday, and Porsche is getting 490HP out of a turbocharged six?...big deal, really, big deal.

    It takes a lot more than that to impress me.

    The M5 is an impressive car. 500hp NA, now that is impressive - and it is sad that Porsche, no matter how good the 997 Turbo is won't be as progressive as the M5 is. The M5 is truly an accomplishment - and Im not even a BMW guy.
    Kudos to BMW.

    Feb 9, 2005 7:20:46 PM

    Joost
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    RR4, not to be nasty, but I think you're probably from the US, where everything is about big engines and many horses. I think it is very admirable that a car with less hp and a smaller engine can still kick any M5's *ss day or night, rain or shine... Don't get me wrong, the M5 is a nice car, but not a sportscar comparable to the 996 or 997 turbo.
    -Joost-

    Feb 9, 2005 7:32:25 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Are you comparing 500HP on an M5 and 490HP on a 911? The M5 is the best in its class IMO but do you realise 500HP on an M5 have nothing, nothing to do with 490HP on a 911? 500HP on an M5 is about 325HP on a 911 performance wise at the track, imagine 490HP. You think you can take advantage of 50 extra HP on top of 490HP on the 997TT on your favorite mountain road? Its not about bragging rights.
    Bottom line is 490HP is more than enough for the 997TT to out perform the competition track or street, and I'm not talking about straight-line accelerations, thats the impressive part about this car, not a 50HP up or down HP figure. HP figures are the easy part to attain, making the most out of that power is the tough part. Making a 355HP car lap the ring under the 8min mark with normal street tires is impressive, pulling 450HP out of that car with a blower is not.

    Really, complaining about not being impressed at all about 490HP on a Turbo 911 is a bit silly IMO, not to mention comparing it to an M5. Its like with the GT3, a lot of people can't even exploit the potential of a GT3 and yet complain it doens't have enough power. On a GT3 that its more than they can chew, they need more HP to compensate for not being able to exploit its handling capabilities if you ask me. If you want the GT3 to go faster, don't increase its HP, go to a few DE's... best perfromance upgrade for such a car.
    Like I said its not about bragging rights nor are 911 dragsters for starigh-line races from stoplight to stoplight. So don't worry about the HP, it will be fine. IMO 490HP is right on the ballpark for its class, and maybe a 40-50HP for an "S" bersion or powerkit.

    Feb 9, 2005 8:31:37 PM

    Texas911
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    So what if he's from the US? Should he be ashamed to it? Heck NO! Fact is, in the US, the land is vast and the roads are straight and Horsepower is supreme. Why be ashamed of that?

    Feb 9, 2005 8:52:38 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Take it easy Texas911, Joost was only pointing out that difference you just stated yourself, nothing more. Nobody should be ashamed of anything here
    But if HP is so supreme there why didn't you have a Viper on order instead of a 997S

    Feb 9, 2005 9:06:10 PM

    MKSGRM
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    Even if it is 490hp, it is 490 for 2007, thats 2 years away, at least for us here in NA. By that time the 430 will already have had a power boost to 500 or more.

    And the extra weight doesn't excite me.

    Nothing really excites me about this car.

    To me this 997 sounds like an underpowered M5 with a bolt on aerokit. I mean come on.
    500HP is absolutely no feat for a turbo charged car. Guys are getting 450hp out of their C2 with a supercharger they install in their garage on a saturday, and Porsche is getting 490HP out of a turbocharged six?...big deal, really, big deal.

    It takes a lot more than that to impress me.

    The M5 is an impressive car. 500hp NA, now that is impressive - and it is sad that Porsche, no matter how good the 997 Turbo is won't be as progressive as the M5 is. The M5 is truly an accomplishment - and Im not even a BMW guy.
    Kudos to BMW.



    Did you know that the current 996TT (introduced 5 years ago) with the official powerkit (450hp) and sport suspension is as quick as the 430 or the Gallardo (straightline and track)?

    Now imagine: A 997TT with an additional 40hp, new AWD, new gear box technology, new suspension etc...

    Feb 9, 2005 10:14:44 PM

    RR4
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Ok when was the last time an average driver had their car at the track. We can talk about the track all we want but it isn't really applicable if the majority of owners do not track their car.

    What I am talking about is with the effort that BMW put into the new M5 (despite its looks, Im not crazy about the styling) the technology they used to get 500HP out of a NA engine and to use it in a sedan even is pretty remarkable, especially for the price they are selling it for.

    Don't you or wouldn't you WANT to expect more from a new Turbo - i hope there is more.

    Feb 9, 2005 10:27:45 PM

    MKW
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Some of us are getting BOTH , the M5 and the Turbo . Why get worked up about it when both are great cars

    Feb 9, 2005 10:40:55 PM

    Carlos from SpainM
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    What I am talking about is with the effort that BMW put into the new M5 (despite its looks, Im not crazy about the styling) the technology they used to get 500HP out of a NA engine and to use it in a sedan even is pretty remarkable, especially for the price they are selling it for.

    Don't you or wouldn't you WANT to expect more from a new Turbo - i hope there is more.



    Thats a very fair point, the N/A 500HP V10, if it proves to be more reliable than the E46-M3's, is a remarkable engine for such a car, clearly the class leader.

    My point is that, its apples and oranges. Just because the industry has gone crazy with these HP wars and now the sport-sedans pack under the hood more HP that those cars or their average owners can handle, it doens't mean the F430, Gallardo or 997TT have to have even more HP to be better or sportier. Given these HP figures, the better and sportier now resides on the braking, the supspension setup, the transmission, the power delivery, the grip and traction, the agility, the steering, the effectiveness of the package in the street conditions, etc.
    If you say yourself that the average owner doens't take the car to the track (only place were you can take the car to its very limits), that means he is going to use or need more than 500HP for the public streets then? It would be the other way around, wouldn't you agree?

    Its not a problem anyway, since the Turbo engine has so much potential, those that want more power will surely be able to get some more horses easily from the tunners, and reliably if its not too much, just like with the 996TT.

    Feb 10, 2005 2:49:20 AM

    TopherV
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    Ok when was the last time an average driver had their car at the track. We can talk about the track all we want but it isn't really applicable if the majority of owners do not track their car.

    What I am talking about is with the effort that BMW put into the new M5 (despite its looks, Im not crazy about the styling) the technology they used to get 500HP out of a NA engine and to use it in a sedan even is pretty remarkable, especially for the price they are selling it for.

    Don't you or wouldn't you WANT to expect more from a new Turbo - i hope there is more.



    Thats what the cars made for, and if the owner decides not to take it to the track, well then hes missing a huge part of the deal. Porsche claims their dominance in the curves, and you cant really do a whole lot on the street.

    -But when it comes down to it.. It'll be more personal preference than anything else. Whether they opt for a turbo or n/a .. Sedan or Coupe .. Flat Six or V10 .. ]

    REMEBER .. Porsche is building upon the principle of Evolution not Revolution .. I think one of the mods said that

    Feb 10, 2005 3:13:43 AM

    alin2
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Hmmm...500 hp from a V10 versus 490 from a turbo flat 6..whcich is more impressive?

    Feb 10, 2005 4:53:07 AM

    Bitko
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    I was comparing 997TT to Gallardo, why are we comparing them with M5, is it a sportscar? You might not have to be ashamed in being an American, but questionable when you think and brag about M5 being a sportscar in a forum like this one. Yes I also agree, if you wanted to drive something sporty, and didn't have the skill or financial abiblity to buy a proper sportscar you would try to convince yourself that M5 is a sportscar.

    Feb 10, 2005 5:20:56 AM

    SoCalHoosier
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    "I think you are probably from the US..."

    That had to be one of the dumbest posts. Just because the US manufacturers produce crap with big engines and lots of horses mean we buy it. On the other hand I could say that you Euros get bad warranties with your cars because there is a lack of competition for your dollars. No one complains about their vehicle so they make modest changes and charge extra 10K for it. But if I stated such generalized opinions it wouldn't make me sound too intelligent would it?

    Feb 10, 2005 7:19:36 AM

    Tour18
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    What the hell is wrong with you guys? Is it a full moon or something?

    Feb 10, 2005 7:22:15 AM

    ozr
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    ...I love my old E39M5...

    ...just for you, rr4, link with educational reading...

    M5 vs 997s



    Better compare new M5 with 997s, but NOT 997turbo...do not forget power-to-weight ratio and also balance on speed (autobahn, for example A3 near Frankfurt, speed, NOT US hwy or EVEN US DE's speed... )

    New 997turbo will be JUST FINE with it's hp against opponents...

    Lets all not forget where we are comming from with hwy SPEED LIMITS in our countries. In such context US requires 0-60mi/h HIGH HP/TORQUE car on an AT THE MOST 65mi/h speed limited streets to FEEL RELAXED and comfortable against "street competition". That is NOT exactly the case with no speed limited autobahn, where one requires "MORE hp AT HIGHER speeds" and high TOP speed car characteristics...

    Also, PORSCHES in the US are used for about 30% of their abilities, these cars, expecially turbos are made for autobahn USE and autobahn LEFT LANE defense.

    In the US and the REST OF THE NON-AUTOBAHN WORLD these cars in a majority of cases are UNDERUTILIZED and "babied", and in my personal opinion, you do not need Carrera for US hwys, it's a WASTE of a CAR ...but still very desirable "weekend-noncommute" TOY. I still prefer EVERYDAY-driven performance car...

    ...going back to M5...

    Do you, rr4, REALLY think new M5 IS A 500 hp car?...

    In reality, if one is familiar with it's engine design (P400, P500 engine driving modes... , one will understand, that new M5 in REALITY is a P400=400hp car MOST OF A TIME, but NOT true on demand at any given second 500hp car. It's a FAKE 500hp car in consideration to the REAL 490hp of a new 997turbo...

    In reality new M5 not that much more quick, than old E39M5...

    Feb 10, 2005 8:31:44 AM

    Joost
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    RR4, like Carlos said, there's nothing to be ashamed of. And you're right, the M% IS an impressive car! Now you say "when is the last time you took your car on the track"... I say; where can you take an M5 (or a 911 for that matter) to it's limits? I think the autobahn is the only part of the world where you can drive as fast as you want on an open road... so, normally, even a volkswagen polo would be sufficient to fill your performance needs on the road
    -Joost-

    Feb 10, 2005 10:06:09 AM

    RCA
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    I agree that the new M5 is a nice car...a nice sports limousine but not a sports car.
    Best example: the "underpowered" 997 Carrera S with 355 HP outruns the M5 on the track. Even on the Nordschleife where lots of power actually improves the track time, the 997 Carrera S is much much faster, not only by a second or two.
    So yes, I like the new M5 but no, I'm not impressed at all.

    The 997 Turbo plays in a completely different league and I also doubt that the F430 will have more than 500 HP in two years. F430 sales just started, they sell each and every car they produce, it wouldn't make sense to increase power after two years. Also look at the F430 price tag and availability. Not to speak about the fact that the F430 has a normally aspirated engine and every power increase would require significant changes to the engine and drivetrain.

    And as a last remark regarding power figures and weight figures: the 996 Turbo S with 450 HP outruns the F430 up to 100 mph by a fraction of a second, the difference is even bigger in the higher speed range. So yes, I like the F430 very much, it is a beautiful car and the performance is extraordinary but I'm still not THAT impressed.

    The upcoming 600 HP (I heard something about 560 HP and not 600 but anyway) Gallardo may be a different story, I always liked the Gallardo and in my opinion, this car has lots of potential for the future. But did you take a look at the price tag? How much do you think a 560 HP version costs because I doubt Audi will introduce the 560 HP as a base package at no extra cost.

    Right now it is difficult to tell if the 997 Turbo will be a blast or not, I agree. But from everything I heard, it should be a real beast. Let's just wait and see, it is no secret that Porsche achieves "wonders" with power figures below the ones of their competitors. Power sells but nothing more.

    Feb 10, 2005 11:01:29 AM

    temm
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Quote:
    RR4 said:

    What I am talking about is with the effort that BMW put into the new M5 (despite its looks, Im not crazy about the styling) the technology they used to get 500HP out of a NA engine and to use it in a sedan even is pretty remarkable, especially for the price they are selling it for.

    Don't you or wouldn't you WANT to expect more from a new Turbo - i hope there is more.



    Good point, but it is kinda hard to discuss the 997 Turbo before we know all the (official) details and how much effort they put into it.

    Judging by Porsche's development program history, the effort will be significant!

    Feb 10, 2005 3:03:05 PM

    N11KOY
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Today I was at my dealer, he told me that the 997 Turbo will be using the 3,8L engine and will have 480-490hp. He also told me that the 3,6L engine will gradually stop being produced and that the 3,8L engine will be used in all 911 models from the next model year(ie M06, sept 2005 onwards). I am really sure if that is the case though...

    Feb 10, 2005 3:54:16 PM

    turbolite
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Just got this in today: the 997 Turbo is expected as a MY 2007 car around early summer 2006. Power should be around 480-490 HP in the base car, good news if true.
    The not so good news: due to the optional(?) DSG gearbox and other features, the weight is rumoured to increase by around 40-60 kg. But this shouldn't be a problem, another rumour indicates that a 997 Turbo prototype already did below 7 min 50 sec on the Nordschleife and the setup isn't finished yet.

    As always with rumours: take them with a grain of salt and DO NOT make your ordering or buying decisons based on such rumours. We may get more "accurate" rumours than others but this doesn't mean that we get the truth.



    Wel 490 hp and PDK was what ams just stated. but I absolutely dislike this weight increase rumour. I know the horsepower is there, but if you move around a racetrack, the actual one already feels much to heavy ! and the horsepower doesnt make any difference to that. See the discussion above on the M5. nice car, but no sportscar!
    Guess this makes the new gt3 even moreinteresting.

    turbolite

    Feb 10, 2005 4:10:00 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: turbolite

    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Quote:
    turbolite said:
    I know the horsepower is there, but if you move around a racetrack, the actual one already feels much too heavy ! and the horsepower doesnt make any difference to that. Guess this makes the new gt3 even moreinteresting.




    I totally agree! I just hope the 997GT3 isn't also heavier than the 996 version

    Feb 10, 2005 4:28:16 PM

    andreas_mue
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    Re: 997 Turbo - Rumour Update

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I agree that the new M5 is a nice car...a nice sports limousine but not a sports car.
    Best example: the "underpowered" 997 Carrera S with 355 HP outruns the M5 on the track. Even on the Nordschleife where lots of power actually improves the track time, the 997 Carrera S is much much faster, not only by a second or two.
    So yes, I like the new M5 but no, I'm not impressed at all.

    The 997 Turbo plays in a completely different league and I also doubt that the F430 will have more than 500 HP in two years. F430 sales just started, they sell each and every car they produce, it wouldn't make sense to increase power after two years. Also look at the F430 price tag and availability. Not to speak about the fact that the F430 has a normally aspirated engine and every power increase would require significant changes to the engine and drivetrain.

    And as a last remark regarding power figures and weight figures: the 996 Turbo S with 450 HP outruns the F430 up to 100 mph by a fraction of a second, the difference is even bigger in the higher speed range. So yes, I like the F430 very much, it is a beautiful car and the performance is extraordinary but I'm still not THAT impressed.

    The upcoming 600 HP (I heard something about 560 HP and not 600 but anyway) Gallardo may be a different story, I always liked the Gallardo and in my opinion, this car has lots of potential for the future. But did you take a look at the price tag? How much do you think a 560 HP version costs because I doubt Audi will introduce the 560 HP as a base package at no extra cost.

    Right now it is difficult to tell if the 997 Turbo will be a blast or not, I agree. But from everything I heard, it should be a real beast. Let's just wait and see, it is no secret that Porsche achieves "wonders" with power figures below the ones of their competitors. Power sells but nothing more.



    Sorry guys, I and a lot of my porsche-friends don't care at all about the Nürburgring-Laptimes when deciding to buy a 911 or not. Porsche is still living on their former image of being a car that can't be beated by others. This is a long time ago!

    It is a strange and painful feeling driving on the german autobahn in a 911 at high speed and not being CLEARLY able of getting rid of a M3 or, worse, an estate-car like the Audi S4! I mean, this is ridiculous in consideration of the price and the image of a 911! Can't you see the smile on the faces of the other drivers, telling their friends at home, that the 'god' of cars was JUST able to pass them and runaway only slowly? Porsche still profits from the voluntary speedlimitation of the other brands. So the 911 driver always can say: In the end I was faster ...

    COME ON, wake up! Porsche should come back to their roots and offer undisputable cars that can't be beated by sedans.

    And to all 911-drivers: Watch your rear-view mirror! When you see the new M5, go right voluntarily, he will laugh at you and blast you away on his way to holiday with his wife, his 2 children and a lot of luggage on board ...

    I made a decision: I will buy the 997tt only when there is a '5' at the beginning of the HP-figure. Otherwise: Audi here I come for the gallardo!
     
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