Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: To Be Fair with Road and Track - Page1

Feb 1, 2005 12:43:54 AM

MrBonus: Junior; Loc: Delaware; Posts: 97, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 4, 2004; Reply to: Dr. Phil

Re: Huh???

Quote:
DrPhil said:
Quote:
MrBonus said:

0-60 is a function of gearing and traction more than power and weight, both of which favor the rear-engined 997S.

So the 997 S is af fast as the CGT?
Excuse me but this is getting more and more absurd

This reminds me of the tale of the hare and the tortoise.
Soon someone in here will say the 997S can outrun a Suzuki Hayabusa.

I respect your diligent admiration of the 997, but please be realistic.

I wonder why excellent sportscarmakers like Ferrari has not discovered the magic of a rear engine setup.
According to your theory the 430 would be able to do a 0-60 in what...? one second? - had it not been for the centre engine...
Hello??

I'd imagine up until 50-60 miles per hour, which again is largely a function of gearing and traction, it would be able to keep pace. Obviously, once the CGT could hook fully, it'd be a clearly faster car.

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Feb 1, 2005 3:18:48 AM

Texas911: Senior; Loc: Houston, Texas - USA; Posts: 766, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 21, 2003; Reply to: MrBonus

Re: Huh???

Regardless, the FACTs are that the 997S was measured at 0-60 in 3.9. Why discount that? If its so easy to do, why aren't there more cars capable of sub 4 second times? And actually, those "riced" out Civics care more about 1/4 mile. But why even bring that up? To make Porsche ownership seem better?

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Feb 1, 2005 3:20:58 AM

pnoble: Co-Pilot; Loc: Short Hills, NJ , United States; Posts: 231, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 18, 2004; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Quote:
Le Chef said:
That's not saying very much.

While I don't disagree with what they say (not hard as they try not to offend anyone), the journalism is pretty crappy, brown nosey, and non critical.

If you want good car journalism look elswhere. Both "Car" and "Evo" have good journalism, great photography and are feerless when it comes to advertisers. Look there for a more objective viewpoint.

Fearless when it comes to advertisers, indeed. The average subscription rate for a US car mag is $1 an issue, which surely doesn't even cover printing and distribution.

The local UK subscription rate for Evo is approx $70 for 12 issues, i.e. nearly six times as much.

Along with the generally more irreverant style of English journalism, I think that would account significantly for the more advertiser-independent approach of the British fan mags!

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Feb 1, 2005 3:11:21 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: pnoble

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

The notion that advertisers sway the results of American Magazine tests is nothing more than urban legend perpetuated by sour-grape eating cynics. The fact is that the U.S. readership CONSTANTLY slams the U.S. magazine editors for being biased towards German and Japanese cars, even though the lion's share of their ad revenue comes from the U.S. Big-3 automakers, clearly displaying that the test results have nothing to do with who's spending the most on ads. I've also personally known many people within Ford and GM (I'm a trademark licensee with both), and personally know people higher-up within ad agencies J. Walter Thompson and Campbell & Co.. In short, it's all bunk, conspiracy theory nonsense. What I see that differentiates books that are across the pond from each other, is the writing and evaluating approach. The U.S. mags tend to have less fluff, less romantic prose, in the writing. It could be construed as a more "crude" evaluation, but I think it has more to do with appealing to the U.S. market. Let's not get into a peeing contest on which side of the pond is more sophisticated, please, it's just two different approaches. Read what you enjoy, but don't delude yourself into thinking that those expensive glue-in poster-card Corvette inserts that GM spent an absolute fortune on (that made reading the magazine impossible until you ripped the card away from the binding) somehow led to a syrupy-sweet endorsement of the new Corvette in U.S. mags. Porsche's ad budget is like feeding a tic tac to a whale, compared to GM's. Yet the Boxster triumphed, and the 997S was declared best, just damned expensive, which, IT IS.

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Feb 1, 2005 7:28:14 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3993, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Quote:
69bossnine said:
The notion that advertisers sway the results of American Magazine tests is nothing more than urban legend ...

Couldn't have said the whole thing better myself.

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Feb 1, 2005 7:32:08 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21149, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Quote:
69bossnine said:
The notion that advertisers sway the results of American Magazine tests is nothing more than urban legend perpetuated by sour-grape eating cynics.

I respectufully disagree...

Interesting read:
http://aejmcmagazine.bsu.edu/journal/Fall_2003/automags.htm

ABSTRACT:
"This study sought to provide evidence of advertiser pressure and editorial favoritism in the
two largest circulation auto magazines. Through a content analysis, it examined the relationship between advertising pages and several types of editorial coverage during 1995 and 2000 in Car & Driver and Motor Trend magazines. The hypothesis that as advertising increased so would editorial coverage was generally supported. However, the positive correlation between increased advertising and coverage was much stronger during the economically robust year of 1995 than the leaner year of 2000. This supports the notion that after a certain level of "equal" editorial coverage has been
presented to readers, companies that advertise more receive increasingly more editorial attention."

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Feb 1, 2005 7:41:09 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3993, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Carlos,

An increase (of an undisclosed amount) in editorial exposure doesn't equate to favoritism in evaluation.

Or, am I missing something in this survey?

Also, just because a result is statisitically significant doesn't mean it's causative. It could be that the bigger advertisers had more product variety to cover. No?

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Feb 1, 2005 8:12:46 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21149, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: W8MM

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Quote:
W8MM said:
Carlos,

An increase (of an undisclosed amount) in editorial exposure doesn't equate to favoritism in evaluation.

Or, am I missing something in this survey?

Also, just because a result is statisitically significant doesn't mean it's causative. It could be that the bigger advertisers had more product variety to cover. No?

Both points you raise are absolutely true, I agree, its not causative nor does it prove favoritism, but that would be very hard to prove since it would be a very subjective outcome messure and not objective.
But nevertheless its certainly as close as its gets to pointing to that direction. In a perfect world I'd give them the benefit of the doubt but in our world it doesn't take for me any studies to distrust such mags in that respect, money talks, and we see it when we read these mags, they will get away with as much favoritism as their readers permit, its like in politics.

Just as an example, a spanish magazine (a mediocre one for masses BTW) just came out with a comparison between a Seat TDI and the Porsche 997! tittled "the diesel Ibiza does not shy from the Porsche 911"... they "showed" recuperations were the Ibiza beats the 997, and praise the efficient and easy handling of the Ibiza while they complain about the "peculiar" handling of the 997 calling it its nose heavy! this is a rear-engined RWD car compared to a FWD front-engined diesel hatchback!

Guess how such a ridiculous piece gets published?
This is a disease of mainstream car magazines, though some magazines remain more pure (I case of americam mags Sport Car International is an example, not to mention the quality of the information and content), and though I'm sure there are good journo's in Car&Driver or such, they are out numbered and do not control what the mag publish. Moderately knowledgeable sportcar enthusiasts like us can pick out all this favoritism and filter it when we read these magazines, but thats a minority of the readers I'm afraid

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Feb 1, 2005 8:16:57 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Good shot Carlos, BUT, I think I've got a fairly simple and common-sense explanation. I scanned the article (it's huge), but it does not seem to address the obvious: Car Magazines tend to run tests, and comparisons, and reviews, when NEW models are introduced. Concurrently, manufacturers tend to launch expensive and prolific ad campaigns...when?....when NEW models are introduced. So OF COURSE there's a correlation. The launch of a new product creates both a surge of coverage, and a surge of advertising, totally independent of each other. A product of the vehicle itself, not a product of some secret collusion between manufacturers and magazines. Also, both the manufacturer and the magazine is trying to give the public what they want. That would also explain why ad content and article content share similar material. Those obvious realities can explain away Hypotheses #1 & #2 in the study, in my mind. Hypotheses #3 & #4 are fairly silly. OF COURSE a manufacturer is going to ramp up the ads for a car that wins a test or gets in the top-10. That's simple cause & effect. But that does not at all mean that the magazine mutated the results to favor a particular brand. The magazine knows that no matter WHO wins the test, or gets in the top-10, they'll likely be buying more ads in the ensuing editions. So, where's the motivation? No matter who wins, the magazine will likely get a new ad from the winner. There is no motivation to give preferential treatment to one over another, at least not enough to cause any editor to start chasing his/her tail. So while that study appears to be very thorough, I also find it to be flawed. And even still, in their conclusion, they state:

"There are limitations to the study due to its scope. First, the results cannot be generalized beyond the two magazines used in this case study. Second, correlations do not indicate causality (BINGO!!!), so they don't answer the chicken/egg question of the positive relationship. Third, the study did not attempt to measure whether the reviews were positive or negative and whether that influences advertising dollars (whoops, minor detail..

). It did, however, measure that those that won comparison features (positive coverage) were more likely to advertise."

Well, no duh.... That's an obvious conclusion, but it does nothing to indicate that it sways the magazine's judgement. I say that the magazines write it the way they see it, and the ads follow-suit. Beyond that, the correlations are purely due to new-model launches, model updates, and consumer interests that drive both vehicle and magazine sales.

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Feb 1, 2005 8:30:50 PM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: 69bossnine

Confusing two issues

Inherent bias (US mags have it for German cars. Brit mags have it for a lost empire of car manufacturers)

Critical judgement and the ability to communicate it. (US mags don't seem to have it and can't do it. Brit mags can)

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Feb 1, 2005 8:48:56 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: Confusing two issues

[QUOTE]Critical judgement and the ability to communicate it. (US mags don't seem to have it and can't do it. Brit mags can)[/QUOTE]

See, I don't feel that way about the US mags at all. Maybe I'm not capable of critical judgement myself!!

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Feb 1, 2005 9:08:28 PM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: 69bossnine

An example of Brit mag criticism

After VW launched the Mk III Golf "Car" rana a cover and story that spoofed one of the old DDB Beatle ads.

Cover showed a Golf VR6 with the title "Lemon". the article went on to highlight the many quality deficiencies of the car and why VW had failed.

I don't believe I have seen an article in the US motoring mags that did this. (Ralph Nader and Arianna where are you?)

Maybe the criticism is more subtle than I can pick up, but it seems to be lacking to me...

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Feb 1, 2005 9:50:57 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: An example of Brit mag criticism

Overt criticism does not necessarily equate accurate and objective journalism.

Furthermore, if you want to see a U.S. magazine completely trash a car, look no further than the recent launch of the Buick LaCrosse. Until the launch of the new '05 Mustang, the Mustang, while still a supposed "American Icon", and always heavily advertized in the mags, was a constant "whipping-boy" of the automotive press. Mercedes and BMW have also been getting plenty of blatant thrashing for their questionable attempts at replacing fluid dymanics with electronic gadgetry (Mercedes brakes, BMW steering and "Idrive"). There's plenty of examples to counter your contention, you've just got to look.

And lastly, I can admire "Car" for having the cojones to run a cover like that. But there's a balance to achieve. No magazine would want to be perceived too much as a muck-stirring malcontent, lest the word "bias" be applied to them as well, and just as fairly.

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Feb 1, 2005 10:59:29 PM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: 69bossnine

Fair comment

I guess I have become immune to seeing US mags as having teeth, so I don't recognize when they do. I still think (believe?) that mags like "Car" "Evo" and the weekly "Autocar" bite a little harder than their US counterparts.

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Feb 2, 2005 1:17:32 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3993, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: Le Chef

Re: Confusing two issues

Quote:
Le Chef said:
Critical judgement and the ability to communicate it. (US mags don't seem to have it and can't do it. Brit mags can)

Two word refutation: Jeremy Clarkson

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Feb 2, 2005 2:20:29 PM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: W8MM

Jeremy Clarkson = Well known [censored] Savant

The cars are merely props for Jeremy's ego. I don't consider him to be a journalist

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Feb 2, 2005 3:17:33 PM

vtrader: Veteran; Loc: Los Angeles; Posts: 1086, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 6, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

From reading the three major US magazines, it always seemed to me that Road and Track had more of an international flavor and Motor Trend tended to favor US cars with Car and Driver somewhere inbetween the two.

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Feb 2, 2005 3:59:34 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: vtrader

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Quote:
From reading the three major US magazines, it always seemed to me that Road and Track had more of an international flavor and Motor Trend tended to favor US cars with Car and Driver somewhere inbetween the two.

It's true that Road & Track definately caters to a more international and sporting demographic, but the other two are fairly much all-inclusive car & truck mags. Again, focus doesn't equate bias. C&D and R&T are both owned by Primedia, therefore their management intentionally positions the magazines the way they do, so that they optimize their overall market appeal and market coverage, and aren't completely redundant.

Le Chef, here's why I'm a bit skeptical of the more "critical" mags. It makes for more dramatic and entertaining writing to dig and pick at the flaws with a serrated knife. The whole "big arrogant rich clumsy why-aren't-they-perfect manufacturer vs. the poor exploited and downtrodden automotive enthusiast" deal makes the magazine out to be your best friend, your strongest advocate. Unfortunately, that may get out of hand, or turn into an editorial habit, where the hunger to report the bad overshadows and overweighs the overall good. Our current U.S. news media in general is a great example of how twisted the news can get, and the public outlook can get, when reporting the "bad" is the first priority. Which is why the traditional U.S. media is crumbling under its own rhetoric as I write. So, that's my goofy and too-long speech

on why I like what I consider to be the "balanced" and straight-forward approach of the U.S. mags. As Jack Webb would have said on Dragnet, "Just the facts ma'am". Of course, I could be totally full of sh**

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Feb 2, 2005 7:45:58 PM

W8MM: Rennteam Master; Loc: Cincinnati, OH , United States; Posts: 3993, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 8, 2003; Reply to: vtrader

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Quote:
vtrader said:
From reading the three major US magazines, it always seemed to me that Road and Track had more of an international flavor and Motor Trend tended to favor US cars with Car and Driver somewhere inbetween the two.

Matches my observations exactly.

However, I've only been reading them for 30 to 40 years, so I might not have as much expertise as some of the other posters.

Motor Trend's Car-of-the-Year winner is roundly thought to be for sale. No such thing can be credibly said about Car and Driver's 10-Best issue though.

---------------------

Disclaimer: Car and Driver once named me to a "10 Best Friends of the Automobile" list in the '90s. It may not come as a surprise that I like them anyway.

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Feb 3, 2005 1:28:57 AM

NeverLift: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 47, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 30, 2003; Reply to: Dr. Phil

Re: Huh???

This is the same argument we had here a couple of months back when C&D tested their 997S at 4.1 0-60. Everyone said that was way to fast and the numbers must be wrong. Well now we have R&T getting 3.9. So now I guess 4.1 seconds is do able?

I have no doubt R&T got 3.9. Under the perfect conditions and launched like you stole it, one could get around 4.0 seconds 0-60. 911s have always had great times in sprints do to the terrific traction(engine over wheels). Look at the 1/4 mile times 12.3 and 12.4, thats very fast. Close to Turbo times with less HP. Wait till the 997GT3 and TT come out. All other marks have to make tons of HP to match Porsche's numbers. You have to love Porsche efficiency.

You have the new Boxster S getting better slalom speed than the Enzo! That's great engineering. Compairing 997S times to the CGT is no big deal.The best CGT times are 3.5-3.6 0-60. Best 997S times 3.9-4.2. All this means is you can't get better at getting the traction down than the 911.

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Feb 3, 2005 3:24:49 AM

Le Chef: Veteran; Loc: Chicago , United States; Posts: 1059, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 3, 2003; Reply to: 69bossnine

What's your poison?

The whole "big arrogant rich clumsy why-aren't-they-perfect manufacturer vs. the poor exploited and downtrodden automotive enthusiast" deal makes the magazine out to be your best friend, your strongest advocate.

I like paying for a car magazine with sharp teeth that supports me (Autocar, Car, Evo, maybe Automobile). The rest (C&D, MT) just don't cut it.

MT may change as it now has a Brit as Editor in Chief who came from Car.

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Feb 3, 2005 4:20:47 AM

vtrader: Veteran; Loc: Los Angeles; Posts: 1086, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 6, 2004; Reply to: Le Chef

To Be Fair with Road and Track

I got my copy of the magazine today. To be fair to R&T, they rated the 997S #1 for performance and tied with the 987S for #1 for subjective ratings. It placed last in the pricing category.

They did say "Porsche Carrera S, which is the best sports car in the world under $100,000".

As far as acceleration, they said "These numbers were so extraordinary that we took the car the MD Automotive in Westminster, California, to measure the Carrera S's output on a dynamometer. No steriod controversy here, the car came away clean. The only elxplanation for the difference in acceleration times is that this particular engine had a proper break-in period (it had 5400 miles on the odometer as opposed to the 1200 on the previous car)." And it was 0-60 mph in 3.9 seconds.

So IMHO, I do believe that Road and Track really liked the 997S.

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Feb 3, 2005 3:41:59 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: vtrader

Re: To Be Fair with Road and Track

I just want the straight scoop, no sharp teeth just for the sake of appearing needlessly "critical". But, that's why there's 50 different car and truck books on the newsstand!!

As for the new editor at MT, the book has been fairly bland, and down on humor and fun since his arrival, and his editorials are total snores. Even his picture looks all "serious", like we're discussing astrophysics. I like Bedard at C&D, and Autoweek is great for keeping your finger on the pulse of what's going on, with a decent amount of tongue-in-cheek. After all, it's just cars. When the writing gets too serious, I start wondering if I should put down the book and get a life.... (then again, I'm typing away on a forum... maybe I DO need a life!!)

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Feb 3, 2005 4:06:59 PM

Ed J: Pilot; Loc: London; Posts: 407, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 4, 2004; Reply to: 69bossnine

Re: To Be Fair with Road and Track

What is the name of the Brit editor out of interest?

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Feb 3, 2005 4:14:34 PM

69bossnine: Rennteam Pro; Loc: FL, USA , United States; Posts: 2028, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 27, 2005; Reply to: Ed J

Re: To Be Fair with Road and Track

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Forum - Thread

Re: Huh???

Re: Huh???

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Confusing two issues

Re: Confusing two issues

An example of Brit mag criticism

Re: An example of Brit mag criticism

Fair comment

Re: Confusing two issues

Jeremy Clarkson = Well known [censored] Savant

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Re: "I think they are two of the best auto magazines in the

Re: Huh???

What's your poison?

To Be Fair with Road and Track

Re: To Be Fair with Road and Track

Re: To Be Fair with Road and Track

Re: To Be Fair with Road and Track

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