Crown

Hmm, I am an able body, with above average driving skills. Why do I need the car to drive for me in the first place?

Driving long road trips is relaxing. I know exactly what's coming up and I have plenty of time to prepare and react. I know what I WILL do, I don't have to guess what the car MIGHT do.

Relying on a car to drive for you is like wearing diapers to go to bed so you don't have to get up and walk to the toilet. What's so hard about getting up and go to the bathroom? 

I mean yeah, there are certain groups in society that needed overnight diapers cause they really can't get up. Perhaps advanced cruise control really is for those that' can't drive in the first place. Their car drives better than them.

Really don't get it.

If it reduces the effort it means your are reducing the attention, otherwise it would be just like driving yourself. So if you come home so relaxed it means your have delegated a significant portion of the mental effort required in paying attention when driving onto the car's abilities, plain and simple.

Some people are comfortable on doing that with a simple level 2 driver assisting system, other's are not, not because they are not as technologically advanced as you but because they are not led onto a sense of security just because it seems to work so far (all it takes is one time it doesn't) and so they will still have to put the same mental effort in supervising the job the car is doing than if they are driving themselves, if anything it would be more nerve racking, and not that it improves their driving, that is what Nick is telling you.

FWIW, the last company I would trust for autopilot type mode in my car would be Tesla given their track record about lying on their advances (nine years in a row Musk said FSD would be available, nine years), misleading the public with the naming of the product, not worrying about implementing features that avoid misuse and abuse of autopilot on the public roads, and their unique habit in the industry of using the customers as beta testers and I'm not talking about FSD beta testing system. 3...2...1...

Carlos from Spain:

...

FWIW, the last company I would trust for autopilot type mode in my car would be Tesla given their track record about lying on their advances (nine years in a row Musk said FSD would be available, nine years), misleading the public with the naming of the product, not worrying about implementing features that avoid misuse and abuse of autopilot on the public roads, and their unique habit in the industry of using the customers as beta testers and I'm not talking about FSD beta testing system. 3...2...1...

This is one of my biggest gripes with Tesla, and a clear example of how well Musk understands the way his audience thinks.

Carlos from Spain:

If it reduces the effort it means your are reducing the attention, otherwise it would be just like driving yourself. So if you come home so relaxed it means your have delegated a significant portion of the mental effort required in paying attention when driving onto the car's abilities, plain and simple.

Some people are comfortable on doing that with a simple level 2 driver assisting system, other's are not, not because they are not as technologically advanced as you but because they are not led onto a sense of security just because it seems to work so far (all it takes is one time it doesn't) and so they will still have to put the same mental effort in supervising the job the car is doing than if they are driving themselves, if anything it would be more nerve racking, and not that it improves their driving, that is what Nick is telling you.

 

Thank you for expanding on that. 

"inventing' something doesn't means it makes things better.

A parallel can be drawn with cooking. Is instant noodles better than fresh cooked noodles? Canned sauce better than sauce made from scratch with fresh ingredients?

How about braised short ribs? Nowadays people go buy a Insta-Pot and cook short ribs that way. But I am old school and prefer searing the ribs first on a stove, then mix in everything else and stuff the pot in an oven and cook it conventionally. Arguably they taste much better my way. I very much enjoy the process of spending 5+hrs doing that. My 20 yr old hates cooking, and he isn't a very good cook either, Insta-Pot is a godsend for him. He loves his, just like how some Tesla fans loves their AutoPilot and FSD. 

Computer assisted driving is for people that can't drive, or hates driving, and that don't enjoy driving but they still need to go somewhere and do something. 

Do one takes out a Tesla and set it to FSD on a Sunday morning for a relaxing drive? Weird if someone do that. 

--

Traveling US interstate 70 across Kansas is about as exciting as watching the wheat grow.

(#1 wheat producing state in the US with the exception of being beaten to first place in 2020 by North Dakota)

Anything to change up that drive like spinning the little wheel on the steering wheel to let the car know you are still awake while the car drives itself is probably safer than putting most drivers up against the monotony.

For those who believe in the joy of driving, this is a stretch of road I would recommend avoiding.

This sounds like the old manual vs automatic debate complete with the folks who think paddle shifting is also manual. 
All I can say is keeping a car on a straight line for 9 hours with strong crosswinds is not my idea of fun. Sitting back and enjoying some very spectacular scenery is much better.  As a seasoned long distance driver I know the dangers of driving huge distances and the mental work it involves.  My experience with the little Model3 is a game changer in that regard and the safety numbers (10-1 reduction in injury accidents) is absolute proof.  If anyone here thinks it is less work and safer to drive nine hours without this assistance is simply wrong. 
And no, I’m not a fan fan of FSD but generalizing that to include tesla autopilot is not correct. But of course I welcome all of you not try it and keep your opinions intact. My goal is not to change minds but rather just to relay my experience.  
So far no injuries have been attribute to fsd. None with Tesla Autopilot when used correctly.  How many people driving their own cars die every day?  Seems Elon is doing many many things to increase safety while others are not only doing nothing, they actively lie about the dangers of Tesla. You can’t make this stuff up. 

In October 2021, a researcher in intelligent transportation systems at the University of Virginia, published a paper entitled 'How to Normalize Safety Statistics for Partially Self-driving Cars.' Based on this paper, it is clear that Tesla's self-driving system, Autopilot, is far less secure than the company (and EIon fans) like to claim... 

For those interested to understand why Tesla's comparison of raw Autopilot crash data to average human driver crash data is misleading because it doesn't adjust for the safety of the operating domain (and other factors) please see link below to the original study... 

PDF Link: https://engrxiv.org/preprint/download/1973/3986/2974

Leawood911:

This sounds like the old manual vs automatic debate complete with the folks who think paddle shifting is also manual. 
All I can say is keeping a car on a straight line for 9 hours with strong crosswinds is not my idea of fun. Sitting back and enjoying some very spectacular scenery is much better.  As a seasoned long distance driver I know the dangers of driving huge distances and the mental work it involves.  My experience with the little Model3 is a game changer in that regard and the safety numbers (10-1 reduction in injury accidents) is absolute proof.  If anyone here thinks it is less work and safer to drive nine hours without this assistance is simply wrong. 
And no, I’m not a fan fan of FSD but generalizing that to include tesla autopilot is not correct. But of course I welcome all of you not try it and keep your opinions intact. My goal is not to change minds but rather just to relay my experience.  
So far no injuries have been attribute to fsd. None with Tesla Autopilot when used correctly.  How many people driving their own cars die every day?  Seems Elon is doing many many things to increase safety while others are not only doing nothing, they actively lie about the dangers of Tesla. You can’t make this stuff up. 

So basically what's proven is that a Model 3 isn't stable in cross wind and needed computer controlled help? I didn't say autopilot is completely useless, I just say it's meant for specific needs, like overnight diapers not for everyone. And your driving scenario happens to fit that bill. 

I have done long straight flat highways in the US also. Did you know from Jackpot the border town in Nevada going southbound, there is literally 200 miles of straight flat roads before reaching something that's not boring? Been there done that, with strong cross wind, in a 918. Rock solid stable. Is it a boring drive? Yup! I am used to curvy mountain roads. But was it still fun? Absolutely. I get to vary the speed, move around the lanes, check out the scenery at the same time also. If I were on cruise control that remains at a constant speed, I would probably fall asleep. Having the car drive itself is literally sensory deprivation. What's the point? Why bother to take a car then, might as well take the plane. Oh, from Northern California heading south is also via a flat featureless desert with strong cross wind. Did that many times, from 918 to a X5, nothing to it, not even challenging to my above average driving skill.

Never mind. It m not up to the manual vs automatic debate.  This is just silly, why even argue it’s pointless. I suggest all other automakers stick with manual cars and Tesla junk are their cameras and computers.  
And yes, it handles crosswinds extremely well. It also drives me all the way to the lake on roads which make the ring look like I-70. 
It is almost comical to try to follow your argument but please continue to tell us how the history of human progress evolves towards less automation and how no one is interested.   It is just the stock market. 

Boxster Coupe GTS:

In October 2021, a researcher in intelligent transportation systems at the University of Virginia, published a paper entitled 'How to Normalize Safety Statistics for Partially Self-driving Cars.' Based on this paper, it is clear that Tesla's self-driving system, Autopilot, is far less secure than the company (and EIon fans) like to claim... 

For those interested to understand why Tesla's comparison of raw Autopilot crash data to average human driver crash data is misleading because it doesn't adjust for the safety of the operating domain (and other factors) please see link below to the original study... 

PDF Link: https://engrxiv.org/preprint/download/1973/3986/2974

It looks like a lot of mental and statistical word soup which is meant to ease the decision to buy a more dangerous car.  One would hope at some point that they can’t be proud of proving that even with this numbers game Teslas are far safer.  I’m not even certain they get the distinction between fsd, autopilot, enhanced autopilot and the autopilot running in the background all the time limited only by how agressive you want the intervention to be. 
Wonder who sponsored this?  I suggest that unless you find that Tesla is actually less safe it is a bad idea to make the others look even more dangerous. 
Btw, as promised, Elon is now the new media target Just like Orange man. Latest headline on Drudge Report claims tesla workplace is full of racism, implying of course that Elon is evil.  Stay tuned for this gem as it seems your bandwagon to jump on The trash Elon train has arrived.  

Whoopsy:

...

A parallel can be drawn with cooking. Is instant noodles better than fresh cooked noodles? Canned sauce better than sauce made from scratch with fresh ingredients?

Do not get me started on air fryers and single use kitchen gadgets. Those look great Whoopsy, we should resurrect the quarantine cooking thread. 

Enmanuel:

Whoopsy:

...

A parallel can be drawn with cooking. Is instant noodles better than fresh cooked noodles? Canned sauce better than sauce made from scratch with fresh ingredients?

Do not get me started on air fryers and single use kitchen gadgets. Those look great Whoopsy, we should resurrect the quarantine cooking thread. 

Hehe thanks! The other day I cooked for 12, so 12 of those portions. 

Air fryers are grouped with Insta-Pot and food processors, they are for people that can't cook. I always prefer hand chop and dice garlic over food processor automation. Automation aren't always the best idea. And I will always do fresh cut hand fried fries over frozen ones cooked in air fryers. 

Whoopsy:

Enmanuel:

Whoopsy:

...

A parallel can be drawn with cooking. Is instant noodles better than fresh cooked noodles? Canned sauce better than sauce made from scratch with fresh ingredients?

Do not get me started on air fryers and single use kitchen gadgets. Those look great Whoopsy, we should resurrect the quarantine cooking thread. 

Hehe thanks! The other day I cooked for 12, so 12 of those portions. 

Air fryers are grouped with Insta-Pot and food processors, they are for people that can't cook. I always prefer hand chop and dice garlic over food processor automation. Automation aren't always the best idea. And I will always do fresh cut hand fried fries over frozen ones cooked in air fryers. 

I could not agree any more. As someone who enjoys cooking a lot, this subject interests me infinitely more than Musks radio controlled car company  

Ron Swanson coming for dinner … 

I used my air fryer - once. Anyone want it ???

Solid char 

Not understanding the lack of love for the air fryer. On my second one which is also a convection over, a toaster, and a standard oven. When I used the deep fryer, I had to take it out on the deck so it did not stink up the whole house. So it was both weather sensitive and PITA to clean. Air fryer is clearly healthier except compared to avoiding fried foods.

Admittedly my first schnitzel in an air fryer was a disaster. Dry as eating sand. However the second time with just a light brushing of oil over the breading it was better than any pan fried of mine or anyone's ever that I have tried.

Using an air fryer is something what normal cooks called cheating.

I don't really fry much food. Outside of pan fried sole filets and pork chops, only other thing I do fry is fresh cut potato chips from scratch, none of those frozen pre made stuff. 

Always done on a Le Creuset with fresh oil. 

Gladstone:

Not understanding the lack of love for the air fryer. On my second one which is also a convection over, a toaster, and a standard oven. When I used the deep fryer, I had to take it out on the deck so it did not stink up the whole house. So it was both weather sensitive and PITA to clean. Air fryer is clearly healthier except compared to avoiding fried foods.

Admittedly my first schnitzel in an air fryer was a disaster. Dry as eating sand. However the second time with just a light brushing of oil over the breading it was better than any pan fried of mine or anyone's ever that I have tried.

Anyone’s ?  REALLY…. I see how you are. Lol. 

If air fryers are for people who can’t cook, one must also include sous vide and slow cookers in that same category.  All involve a bit of automation. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t, just like a Tesla on FSD.  https://www.thedrive.com/news/44216/this-tesla-self-driving-fail-video-is-exactly-whats-wrong-with-tesla-stans

That's hilarious, the minion parroting Musk's charlatanisms just when reality hits and shuts him right up....

CGX car nut:

If air fryers are for people who can’t cook, one must also include sous vide and slow cookers in that same category.  All involve a bit of automation. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t, just like a Tesla on FSD.  https://www.thedrive.com/news/44216/this-tesla-self-driving-fail-video-is-exactly-whats-wrong-with-tesla-stans

My issue with air fryers is the same one I have with Tesla. It's a company (or industry, for the sake of argument) that have taken a tool and touted it as a fail proof method to address a lof of "common" problems. And then their solutions to those problems are mediocre at best. Yes FSD would be convenient but if you engage a few more neurons you can drive yourself in a manner that an automated system will never be able to achieve. Yes, a small high power oven is convenient for very specific culinary uses, but it's not a quick way to cook all the things. And similarly if you engage in a little bit more effort you can and up with something that's cooked much better. 

I don’t have fsd so it plays zero role in my appreciation for the car and it’s capabilities.
Without taking fsd into consideration it beats every other automotive category except for exhaust sound for a kid side sedan. 
It is simply without equal value in terms of fun to drive, safe, fast, economical, practical, resale value, reliability, comfort, sound system, visibility, quality, tech, cruise control. 
In addition, If you were to compare Teslas standard cruise control to any other cruise control it would be laughable how the comparison would turn out. 
So it seems that because FSD is not perfected none of the other categories matter to the extent that you would accept all of those being compromised and you still would not end up with a cruise control as good as Teslas. 
So unless there is some competition that has FSD and does not compromise in all the other categories it really does not factor much into the buying decision.  No one is buying Teslas for fsd. In fact they buy them despite knowing that is likely off in the future because the rest of what they get in the package is without equal in the market. 
 Cheers!

Enmanuel:

CGX car nut:

If air fryers are for people who can’t cook, one must also include sous vide and slow cookers in that same category.  All involve a bit of automation. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t, just like a Tesla on FSD.  https://www.thedrive.com/news/44216/this-tesla-self-driving-fail-video-is-exactly-whats-wrong-with-tesla-stans

My issue with air fryers is the same one I have with Tesla. It's a company (or industry, for the sake of argument) that have taken a tool and touted it as a fail proof method to address a lof of "common" problems. And then their solutions to those problems are mediocre at best. Yes FSD would be convenient but if you engage a few more neurons you can drive yourself in a manner that an automated system will never be able to achieve. Yes, a small high power oven is convenient for very specific culinary uses, but it's not a quick way to cook all the things. And similarly if you engage in a little bit more effort you can and up with something that's cooked much better. 

Air frying has healthy benefits over frying in oil for many foods.  That’s a primary consideration one should include in their calculus.  

CGX car nut:

Enmanuel:

CGX car nut:

If air fryers are for people who can’t cook, one must also include sous vide and slow cookers in that same category.  All involve a bit of automation. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t, just like a Tesla on FSD.  https://www.thedrive.com/news/44216/this-tesla-self-driving-fail-video-is-exactly-whats-wrong-with-tesla-stans

My issue with air fryers is the same one I have with Tesla. It's a company (or industry, for the sake of argument) that have taken a tool and touted it as a fail proof method to address a lof of "common" problems. And then their solutions to those problems are mediocre at best. Yes FSD would be convenient but if you engage a few more neurons you can drive yourself in a manner that an automated system will never be able to achieve. Yes, a small high power oven is convenient for very specific culinary uses, but it's not a quick way to cook all the things. And similarly if you engage in a little bit more effort you can and up with something that's cooked much better. 

Air frying has healthy benefits over frying in oil for many foods.  That’s a primary consideration one should include in their calculus.  

Sure, it has benefits, I'm not saying it doesn't. But the marketing and common use has become "throw anything in here and it cooks just fine" when the reality is much different. Yes a small high powered oven is good for very specific tasks. 

Leawood911:

Without taking fsd into consideration it beats every other automotive category except for exhaust sound for a kid side sedan. 
It is simply without equal value in terms of fun to drive, safe, fast, economical, practical, resale value, reliability, comfort, sound system, visibility, quality, tech, cruise control. 
In addition, If you were to compare Teslas standard cruise control to any other cruise control it would be laughable how the comparison would turn out. 

For you that is though, this is why there are different options because each one's needs and preferences are different.

Forget FSD, for me the Tesla is a soulless, cheaply built, horrible interior, limited range and slow to fuel, exteriorly ugly, horrible lacking after sale service, with features like autopilot that I won't need to use maybe until 20 years from now. So in that automotive list it's way at the very bottom for me.  Thing is, we can both right, because to each his own.

+100. Exactly. Well put. We agree on everything including air fryers ( mostly ) 

Another article on the Tesla FSD podcast where they almost strike a bicyclist. https://jalopnik.com/this-tesla-using-fsd-beta-trying-to-drive-into-a-cyclis-1848506189  One listened to a sizable percentage of that podcast and these two lack any semblence of critical thought. Years ago as a young MBA student, one had studied the literature on being rational versus being rationalizing; these two are definitely in the former camp.  

Still no deaths or injuries due to FSD. It’s a beta program. I must say Elon has huge balls toying with FSD while everyone is targeting him ala Trump. It would take very little to stage an accident and everyone would buy it hook line and sinker. You may recall the Tesla S plaid that caught fire supposedly. Funny how after Elon hinted at arson the guy disappeared. 
Keep the news coming, it is a pretty good at revealing truth if you look. 

Leawood911:

Still no deaths or injuries due to FSD. It’s a beta program. I must say Elon has huge balls toying with FSD while everyone is targeting him ala Trump. It would take very little to stage an accident and everyone would buy it hook line and sinker. You may recall the Tesla S plaid that caught fire supposedly. Funny how after Elon hinted at arson the guy disappeared. 
Keep the news coming, it is a pretty good at revealing truth if you look. 

If anything, I see Elon as Obama. Trump isn't clever enough to manipulate people like how Obama and Elon does it, Trump is just a straight shooter that some people find offensive. 

Anyways, enough about politics in this thread. 

Whoopsy:

Leawood911:

Still no deaths or injuries due to FSD. It’s a beta program. I must say Elon has huge balls toying with FSD while everyone is targeting him ala Trump. It would take very little to stage an accident and everyone would buy it hook line and sinker. You may recall the Tesla S plaid that caught fire supposedly. Funny how after Elon hinted at arson the guy disappeared. 
Keep the news coming, it is a pretty good at revealing truth if you look. 

 

If anything, I see Elon as Obama. Trump isn't clever enough to manipulate people like how Obama and Elon does it, Trump is just a straight shooter that some people find offensive. 

Anyways, enough about politics in this thread. 

 

Sadly politics in the auto business is all too real. Has nothing to do with trump as much as it is always powerful interests who don’t exactly have our best interests in mind. Musk is a target and people will fall for it. Just like people will buy every other EV on the planet due to FUD.  Once the investment is made it is hard know when you have been tricked.