Crown

My 2 cents:
The current demand for EVs (at least in Europe) is mostly driven by government incentives/ emission laws. Governments are actively pushing to drive ICE cars out of the market. Without government intervention, EVs in their current form would only appeal to a minority. Truth is - as a total package EVs are still inferior to ICE alternatives in the eyes of the average consumer (price, range, available options, etc.).
Nonetheless, EVs will gain significant market share over the next years mainly because OEMs will be forced to put them on the market to avoid sanctions. We can just hope they will actually start offering "competitive" options. 

 

Boxster Coupe GTS:

Whoopsy:

Leawood911:

I see. You don’t have any specs on your side expect for build quality and expensive price. Lol. 
Maybe you will do better with depreciation. 

EVs can have different price points, they can spread up and down the market like normal cars. The Germans are gunning for the high end and they got it.

Just like normal car segments, the high end will have deprecations, just part of the game.

Build quality is always there for the Germans, it's Tesla that needs to improve to compete with the Japanese and Koreans. Right now they are good enough fro an American made car, and getting on the boat to the next generation of technology is more important than spending extra for better build quality. They really don't want to get left behind. 

Norway has been an early adopter of EVs and the competition is increasing... 

Mentioned it before, but Tesla used to have the quasi monopoly on EVs, they are the ones that stands to lose the most with increasing competition. They NEED to stay at the forefront on EV tech. They were, and still is the leader, but became complacent and now competition is breathing down their neck. 

Their range advantage has become more or less neutralized as all modern EVs are good enough for range for most people. There are still some people that needed those extra few miles but any current EV that can do 200 mile a charge can cover most people's needs on a daily basis. It's just diminishing returns from now on for those extra miles of range. And even now, others can pile on bigger batteries to extend the range, at the cost of more weight though.

The charging side can be improved upon however. 800V system means thinner wires and less weight. Cheaper copper cost also. Quicker charging and denser charging stations means EVs can carry smaller batteries. Less weight again. Less weight means the EVs are more efficient. There is no down side. 

Better infrastructure benefits everyone and its; not even Tesla specific. From e-Mini all the way up to Taycan turbo S al can benefit from improved infrastructure. 

I still expect BEVs to gain market share at an impressive rate until they reach about 20% of total vehicle sales.

Then there will be a much slower growth rate unless battery technology improves dramatically.

I might even be a bit optimistic with the 20% figure, but they are not on a path to becoming the majority of vehicle sales for a long time.

Battery tech is fine atm. Yes they could be more dense or of higher capacity. but let's think of the problem this way.

So what if Tesla could pack a 200kW battery into the same packaging as their current 100kW container. What do they do? Do they give it the full 200kW or cut it in half and maintain the same 100kW but at half the size?

The first option would means an overnight charging session at home won't fully charge a pack.

Second option would be a lighter car, more efficient yet still, but would still be charging at the same rate as it is currently. People would still be waiting 25-30-40 mins at a charging station. The infrastructure problem is still there. And that charge time is still minimum 3-4 times longer than filling up at a gas station which the general public will measure against. 

200 kWh would be almost 900 miles in a model3. A bit too much unless you are looking at using it as a VPP. 
If you are charging overnight at home I doubt you frequently did more than 400 miles that day. 
 

The 800 volts you keep mentioning has to be the most obscure owner / cost benefit. I’m not convinced that Tesla needs this as urgently as needs better battery or motor tech. Porsche could use lots help in many areas. 800 volts only does so much. 

Right now Tesla's batteries and motors are very good enough, whatever improvements they can make is incremental and on a diminishing return curve.

What can you do on a 700hp motor that you can't do on a 500hp motor in city driving?

Charging speed, or sustained charging speed, not headline grabbing peak at low charge level, is the key to advancing EVs. Getting the same charge rate no matter the battery level is the key to advancing EV's adoption rate. It's like filling a gas tank. You get the same flow rate no matter the tank level. It's what normal consumers expects. 

Bjorn's video showed that clearly. e-Tron has a much lower peak, but it can sustain it's max charge speed for the longest time compared to Tesla or Taycan, and gets to 90% charge the fastest. Heck, even the Taycan can do a higher sustain charge rate than the Tesla throughout the battery charge level. 

He has another video showing a Tesla plugged into a CCS2 plug and experienced overheating and thus a reduced charge rate. That overheating is just a product of pushing too much current. Doubling the voltage means halting the current at the same wattage, so less heat. 

There is no down side to going 800V. Other than the fact that Tesla don't currently have that capability.

And let’s not forget that the 800V systems will have thinner cables so less copper used so a greener car. I thought Tesla fans consider the environment...

There is no try. Just do.

Pentium:

And let’s not forget that the 800V systems will have thinner cables so less copper used so a greener car. I thought Tesla fans consider the environment...

I’m just a cheap speed freak. I’m as green as a KC Strip Steak!

Leawood911:

Pentium:

And let’s not forget that the 800V systems will have thinner cables so less copper used so a greener car. I thought Tesla fans consider the environment...

I’m just a cheap speed freak. I’m as green as a KC Strip Steak!

Less copper means less cost too, even cheaper. 

Whoopsy:

Leawood911:

Pentium:

And let’s not forget that the 800V systems will have thinner cables so less copper used so a greener car. I thought Tesla fans consider the environment...

I’m just a cheap speed freak. I’m as green as a KC Strip Steak!

 

Less copper means less cost too, even cheaper. 

 

Yeah, but right now the only way to get the cheaper 800 volt copper is to spend twice as much and lose in every other spec. 
Cheers,  I hope you know I am always laughing and enjoying our endless back and forth. It’s a great escape from my usual over the top busy days!  I appreciate it, always. 

Leawood911:

Whoopsy:

Leawood911:

Pentium:

And let’s not forget that the 800V systems will have thinner cables so less copper used so a greener car. I thought Tesla fans consider the environment...

I’m just a cheap speed freak. I’m as green as a KC Strip Steak!

 

Less copper means less cost too, even cheaper. 

 

Yeah, but right now the only way to get the cheaper 800 volt copper is to spend twice as much and lose in every other spec. 
Cheers,  I hope you know I am always laughing and enjoying our endless back and forth. It’s a great escape from my usual over the top busy days!  I appreciate it, always. 

One of the major OEM in Europe just signed a deal to use Delphi's 800V inverter. So cheaper more mass market 800V cars are coming.

It's really not hard for Tesla to do 800V, they source their own components anyways. It would be a major step for them to stay just that little bit ahead of the incoming competition. Explained a few posts back, their Model 3 with faster 800V charging would just be that much better. 

Kia has s also coming out with 800 volts. You have point and I have been reading up on it. Some interesting things to be announced on n Battery Day. Rumors of a new larger battery form factor for Tesla. 

Chinese media warning consumers of the dangers of trusting their Tesla too much...  

Video Link: https://m.weibo.cn/detail/4550101525863062#&video

There is an owners manual as well as warnings each time you enable the system. They should not trust them at all. This is pretty obvious to responsible people. In other news -other cars without such drivers aids continue to crash at a much higher rate. Lol. 
 

Leawood911:

There is an owners manual as well as warnings each time you enable the system. They should not trust them at all. This is pretty obvious to responsible people. In other news -other cars without such drivers aids continue to crash at a much higher rate. Lol. 
 

 

Keep trying to convince yourself that informed drivers will not abuse driving assistance systems as a recent AAA study proves otherwise.  From the Detroit Bureau:

Drivers Take Cue about ADAS Tech Capability from System’s Name

Michael Strong

A new AAA study shows that the name of an advanced driver assistance system shapes the driver’s perception of its abilities.

Advanced driver assistance systems, or ADAS, often mean different things to different drivers and a new study shows that the expectations of what’s expected can be summed up using an old cliche: What’s in a name?

According to a new study from AAA, the name of the ADAS system means, well, everything. It sets the tone for what drivers expect from the system and the results of the study aren’t likely to make Tesla executives very happy.

Researchers at the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety found consumers who get information about these systems focusing on their convenience and capabilities while minimizing limitations tend to believe the technology possesses more capabilities than it actually does.

(Tesla loses Autopilot court case in Germany.)

Unsurprisingly, more balanced information, particularly the name, lowers the expectations of the system’s abilities. As a result of the study, AAA warns that a false sense of system capabilities created by marketing campaigns can lead to dangerous scenarios on the road.

Cadillac’s Super Cruise semi-autonomous system is now available with an eye toward making it fully self-driving in the future.

“Based on data collected from our research, subtle differences in tone and emphasis significantly influenced people’s understanding of the technology and their expectations of its capability,” said Dr. David Yang, executive director of the AAA Foundation for Traffic Safety. “These systems assist the driver and take some of the stress out of driving, but they don’t eliminate the need for drivers to pay attention.”

Well, AAA decided to put that theory to the test. In a 90-person study using the same system, half were told the system’s was named “AutonoDrive” and were given an upbeat training that emphasized the system’s capabilities and driver convenience. The other half were told it was named “DriveAssist,” and their training focused on the system’s limitations and driver responsibility. Participants trained on AutonoDrive came away with greater confidence — and in some cases, overconfidence — in the system.

After completing the training and driving the test vehicle, 42% of the participants using AutonoDrive, said its name made the system sound more capable than it is, while only 11% of DriveAssist users felt the same. Some of the specifics include:

• 62% felt AutonoDrive would make them feel more comfortable eating while driving compared with just 27% of DriveAssist “users”
• 45% believed AutonoDrive would make them feel more comfortable using a handheld cell phone versus just 13% with DriveAssist
• 45% thought AutonoDrive could take action to avoid a collision when a vehicle directly to the side begins steering into it to change lanes compared with just 4% of DriveAssist users
• 56% of AutonoDrive users thought the it could automatically reduce speed on a tight cu

  Nissan’s ProPilot Assist still requires the driver to keep their hands on the wheel.

  rve without the driver doing anything versus just 27% of Drive Assist participants

“From our research, it’s clear that education and training can influence users’ expectations, how they will interact with and their behaviors when using new vehicle technologies,” added Yang.

(Advocacy groups attack Tesla’s use of Autopilot — again.)

It’s this very premise that critics of Tesla’s Autopilot semi-autonomous technology have been touting for years. In fact, just recently a German court supported that position in a recent ruling, saying that using the name in advertising is misleading to customers.

The Munich Regional Court ruled Tesla can no longer advertise its semi-autonomous driving technology using the name “Autopilot.” While the name could conjure up images of a driver pressing a button and letting the car do all the work, the court’s ruling seemed to hinge on a claim that accompanied the word.

In the ads, the EV maker said their Autopilot-equipped vehicles have “full potential for autonomous driving.” The judges also said the company wrongly promoted its cars as being able to self-navigate in cities by the end of 2019.

Reddit user MiloWee posted video of this Tesla Model 3 driver apparently asleep behind the wheel in traffic in Los Angeles.

To be fair, Tesla isn’t alone when it comes to suggestive names. Potential consumer misunderstandings of new vehicle technology need to be addressed. In a previous AAA survey, 40% of Americans said they expect active driving assistance systems, with names like Autopilot and ProPilot, to have the ability to drive the car by itself.

“Automakers are in the business of selling vehicles,” said Jake Nelson, AAA director of traffic safety advocacy and research. “Understandably, they will emphasize convenience and system capabilities in their marketing campaigns.

“But, their marketing campaigns, materials and consumer information should not mislead motorists. Words matter. We can do better by taking care to be more realistic in setting expectations for consumers such that the sale of a new vehicle does not come at the expense of safety.”

(Study shows motorists confused by high-tech features like Autopilot, Super Cruise, ProPilot.)

Tesla CEO Elon Musk has long maintained the company has consistently told drivers at every turn they must keep their hands on the wheel and remain alert to the warning systems in the vehicle. Despite this, the internet – particularly YouTube – is filled with videos of drivers cheating the warning system while doing everything from simply taking in the scenery to napping to having sex.

I can’t speak for human beings and how they think. I do know that these systems add safety. No question about it. 
So the only problem then is the name. 
how about a top ten list on this thread for what to call it to make everyone safer?

my contribution 

1) Widowmaker steering intrusion system. 
 

The alternative to these systems is to not progress toward more safety. Not likely or wise. 

Polestar admits that electric cars are “dirtier” than ICE cars

That study is just for the car’s carbon footprint.  Think about the environmental damage done from the mining and refining of lithium, nickel, cobalt, graphitic carbon, and rare earth metals needed to ramp EV production to replace the ICE fleet.  

Here goes something that Leawood said doesn’t happen very often:  

Alberta RCMP received a complaint of a car speeding on Hwy 2 near #Ponoka. The car appeared to be self-driving, travelling over 140 km/h with both front seats completely reclined & occupants appeared to be asleep. The driver received a Dangerous Driving charge & summons for court.

https://mobile.twitter.com/RCMPAlberta/status/1306600570791301123

When did I say that?  I said I never trust the system and use it per the directions as a drivers aid. But if it makes you feel better I’ll keep being the bad guy. Perhaps you felt left out when I thanked Whoopsy for playing yesterday. 

The fact they did not crash or even hurt anyone is not lost on this audience.  It is the future of travel. Imagine leaving after work Friday and finding yourself well rested at your destination the next day. No more finding that 11pm motel room and booking that worthless 8 hour hotel stay. We may find out we are all minivan people again. Bed in the back with airbag headrests. 

Leawood911:

When did I say that?  I said I never trust the system and use it per the directions as a drivers aid. But if it makes you feel better I’ll keep being the bad guy. Perhaps you felt left out when I thanked Whoopsy for playing yesterday. 

The fact they did not crash or even hurt anyone is not lost on this audience.  It is the future of travel. Imagine leaving after work Friday and finding yourself well rested at your destination the next day. No more finding that 11pm motel room and booking that worthless 8 hour hotel stay. We may find out we are all minivan people again. Bed in the back with airbag headrests. 

Your continual approval and acceptance of such activities is more and adequate proof.  

https://dailyhive.com/vancouver/bc-driver-charged-sleeping-speeding-self-driving-car

CGX car nut:

Leawood911:

It is the future of travel. Imagine leaving after work Friday and finding yourself well rested at your destination the next day. No more finding that 11pm motel room and booking that worthless 8 hour hotel stay. We may find out we are all minivan people again. Bed in the back with airbag headrests. 

Your continual approval and acceptance of such activities is more and adequate proof.  

Leawood, is this what you are daydreaming about?  Does your car still help you driving in fog? 

...you clearly trust your Tesla far too much sir! 

The simple fix here is to revoke that human’s license. TSLA should consider assessing driver engagement the way Supercruise does in the CT6.

Maybe you guys should read what I write. I’m pretty consistent. It is a good drivers aid. The best. You are better off with it than without it. I would never trust it. In the future it will be fine, eventually. 
Cars that don’t have this capability will not sell at some point. 
What is the fascinating aspect with putting words in my mouth or reading my mind?  Maybe you guys should just go drive one. Have I mentioned this?  
Maybe I should post articles about ICE cars crashing due to idiot drivers but that would be tooooo many to list. 

I will say this - after all the cars I have owned the Model3 is by far and away the most fun to drive on the road (not track) and the safest. Period. Not even close. 
 

Leawood, when you reilase we are not talking about you specifically but rather the effect of "auto"pilot in the general population of drivers, you will get what everybody here is saying.

That said, if a commuter 2 ton four door sedan EV is the most fun car you have driven... we could not be further away on what we consider fun in a car when driving, but to each his own, there is no one right answer for everybody, whatever rocks your boat.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

I did qualify with cars I have owned not dreamed of or ridden in. And for the street. 
In terms of safety, speed and efficiency there is nothing I can compare it to personally. It amazes and delights me each day I drive it. I drive the Turbo now like i walk the dog. It needs to driven but it’s now a chore. Just the way I feel. 

Leawood911:

I did qualify with cars I have owned not dreamed of or ridden in. And for the street. 
In terms of safety, speed and efficiency there is nothing I can compare it to personally. It amazes and delights me each day I drive it. I drive the Turbo now like i walk the dog. It needs to driven but it’s now a chore. Just the way I feel. 

Why don't you sell it? Makes little sense to keep material things if you don't enjoy them - unless you are crazy rich and you can't be bothered. I'm sure someone else would be happy driving this classic car. So it's a win-win...

Personally, I don't get the hype about "autonomous driving" or the current crop of driving aids. In fact, the only thing I would spec on a modern car is a blind spot assistant and adaptive cruise control (for long journeys in speed limited countries). In my Porsche I used it maybe 10x over the course of 60k kms (mostly in Switzerland and Italy).
I'm 35 and not 70 btw. 

Leawood911:

Maybe you guys should read what I write. I’m pretty consistent. It is a good drivers aid. The best. You are better off with it than without it. I would never trust it. In the future it will be fine, eventually. 
Cars that don’t have this capability will not sell at some point. 
What is the fascinating aspect with putting words in my mouth or reading my mind?  Maybe you guys should just go drive one. Have I mentioned this?  
Maybe I should post articles about ICE cars crashing due to idiot drivers but that would be tooooo many to list. 

I will say this - after all the cars I have owned the Model3 is by far and away the most fun to drive on the road (not track) and the safest. Period. Not even close. 
 

You are consistent. But you only talk about how YOU use it. You do not represent the vast majority. Far from it, you are the exception, not the norm.

The majority out there do NOT drive like you or use the systems like you do.

mcdelaug:

The simple fix here is to revoke that human’s license. TSLA should consider assessing driver engagement the way Supercruise does in the CT6.

If you don’t keep your hand on the wheel it will stop driving itself in about 10 seconds. No kidding. The people sleeping either have their hand on the wheel or they rigged something.   Or it may be fake news. If you ignore the command to put your hand on the wheel the car will make a very very loud beeping noise - enough to wake you from the dead - and if you still don’t take over it will assume you are dead and it will pull over and come to a complete stop.  Some of the stories clearly have more to them in terms of what the idiots are doing to get around the 10 second rule.