Crown

Ferdie:

bluelines:

I am of the opposite opinion and prefer a station wagon over a SUV, because a comparable station wagon has less weight and more space. I never saw the point of SUVs and have several times forced myself to test drive and like them... but keep falling back to station wagons as more practical and spacious.

You forgot the main issue, the high center of gravity. By the way, I am obviously European as well... 

I predict a comeback of the station wagon in North America, the SUV is what the minivan used to be for soccermums one or two decades ago.

That do make a difference in the winding roads around the Alps 

Most people rarely can extra more than 50%-60% out of a car on public roads, and if someone can extra 70% out of say a Cayenne turbo S, then the wagon will be a dot in the mirror. 

SUV's are bought because our wifes just like the higher driving position - I would not know anybody who needs a SUV - Oh actually WATT 

I used to have an authentic 4x4, a Mitsubishi Pajero short wheelbase (Montero in the USA). That car was very useful pulling my boat out of the water and going off-road excursions including ventures into snow covered terrain. It was also very robust, strong and comfortable and handled well. IMO this type of SUV is worth having if it coincides with your hobbies and sports.

After that I bought a Mercedes ML. A big disappointment and very expensive to run. All SUVs from the premium brands are not fit for the purpose and are bought more like lifestyle items to please wives and girlfriends

SUVs are a big waste of money, very impractical in the city and drive like barges everywhere else. Unless you want to spend a fortune on a Cayenne GTS,for example (not to mention the Urus category) and rejoice because it can handle like most  normal sportier cars would do anyway, and at a fraction of the cost.

--

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

Enmanuel:

I’m surprised they even spent the r&d to make this car happen. Maybe I’m too ignorant to sales numbers in Europe but here in the US I’ve seen tops 4 or 5 Panamera ST in the wild since it launched. 

In the Netherlands, station wagons are really popular. Volvo, Mercedes, BMW, Audi... most of them are driven majorly as station cars. Of the Panamera's I see around, I would estimate that 1/4th to 1/3rd are Sport Turismos.

Regarding the Taycan Sport Turismo... I guess, we could have expected it coming, but it's a look I'll have to get used to. The Panamera Sport Turismo, I háve gotten used to, I really like the looks of it.

Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys

Whoopsie:

You are European, no? 

Worse, he is a Swede living in Switzerland.  In my world, this would equal someone wearing Birkenstocks with white socks. 

E class wagons, vs GLE, GLE has more passenger space and cargo space.

A6 wagon vs Q7, Q7 have more space for passenger and cargo.

5 series wagon vs X5, again the SUV has more passenger and cargo space.

Cayenne vs Panamera wagon, same deal.

I never got a station wagon because they are basically sedans with a larger luggage space. SUVs have so many advantages, are much more comfortable, the driving position is amazing in the city but also when there is bad weather, they are much better in winter time, especially in snow but overall, they are also more "airy" and spacious in the interior, ask my kids. I wanted to get a RS6 station wagon many times, I really tried this car with the family, twice and neither my wife nor the kids wanted one.

My wife told me she'd get a divorce if I get a station wagon. This is even worse than a Volvo to her..   

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Joost:

Enmanuel:

I’m surprised they even spent the r&d to make this car happen. Maybe I’m too ignorant to sales numbers in Europe but here in the US I’ve seen tops 4 or 5 Panamera ST in the wild since it launched. 

In the Netherlands, station wagons are really popular. Volvo, Mercedes, BMW, Audi... most of them are driven majorly as station cars. Of the Panamera's I see around, I would estimate that 1/4th to 1/3rd are Sport Turismos.

Regarding the Taycan Sport Turismo... I guess, we could have expected it coming, but it's a look I'll have to get used to. The Panamera Sport Turismo, I háve gotten used to, I really like the looks of it.

In Germany, station wagons are very popular as well but mainly for three reasons:

1. People think that big SUVs drive like sh.t. They don't

2. People think that station wagons are environmentally friendlier (in reality though, they care about cost and drive mainly Diesels).

3. (Big) SUVs are often too expensive and station wagons are basically a family "Volkswagen" here.

There is a change in mentality though lately, it seems that those smaller Crossover-SUVs have a lot of success here, pushing station wagons back a little bit. I still believe however that station wagons will keep having success since people here have a very negative opinion about SUVs.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Guess I learned something new today about the EU market. 

RC:

I never got a station wagon because they are basically sedans with a larger luggage space. SUVs have so many advantages, are much more comfortable, the driving position is amazing in the city but also when there is bad weather, they are much better in winter time, especially in snow but overall, they are also more "airy" and spacious in the interior, ask my kids.

I'd add one more reason, station wagons are much uglier/amorphous in some cases or Ned Flanderish looking in others 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Joost:

Enmanuel:

I’m surprised they even spent the r&d to make this car happen. Maybe I’m too ignorant to sales numbers in Europe but here in the US I’ve seen tops 4 or 5 Panamera ST in the wild since it launched. 

In the Netherlands, station wagons are really popular. Volvo, Mercedes, BMW, Audi... most of them are driven majorly as station cars. Of the Panamera's I see around, I would estimate that 1/4th to 1/3rd are Sport Turismos.

Regarding the Taycan Sport Turismo... I guess, we could have expected it coming, but it's a look I'll have to get used to. The Panamera Sport Turismo, I háve gotten used to, I really like the looks of it.

Station wagons with the ugly yellow Dutch plates are REALLY popular on the Autobahn too

You can spot them from miles away, they are the ones driving 90km/hr on the passing lane in the unlimited sections 

Funny how station wagons are considered European when they were invented in the US 

I take the new RS6 over any SUV, but for you older guys it must be easier to get in to a SUV and easier to keep up with the surroundings by sitting half a meter higher. So I get why you like SUVs.

2016 Porsche 981 GT4 | Racing Yellow
2018 Audi S6 Avant | Ibis White

I guess for you younger guys it’s just easier to collapse into a lower seat😀

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItCGU7BTBv8

The video really didn't tell us anything we don't already know for the longest time.

Taycan is the faster EV sedan, and the Tesla is geared perfectly for city speed and is the perfect city car.

Electric motors are really inefficient and loses power at high rpm range, one reason Porsche put in a 2-speed to retain higher speed highway performance. Tesla on the other hand choose to skip the gearbox as it was designed primarily as a city car in the USA, and even at highway speed in the USA the EV motor is still within it's performance envelop, it's only in Europe where access to higher speed is attained that it showed it's deficiency. Outside of that, it's a good enough car.

And for the intended usage purposes of EVs, I wouldn't buy either car. There are cheaper and better alternatives in the market place.

--

You don’t think he ever actually activated Cheetah mode. The fact that he manually lowered the car for the second run makes this obvious. I don’t own an S but from what I have seen it is pretty obvious when you set it correctly. Not that the difference matters at all. If this took place on American streets both would lose their cars and possibly their jobs (cancel culture and all). 
I would trust Brooks @ dragtimes to compare the two. They are so close that the huge price difference is nuts not to mention the vastly superior tech and range in the S.  Just wait until you see the replacement for this 9 year old car. 

These “drag race“ comparisons are so senseless on so many levels. 

1.  These are both fine cars for different customers and different markets.

2.  Most Porsche and Tesla customers enjoy their cars for their own reasons, and don’t give e rat’s ass about drag race split second differences.

3.  These types of comparisons are maybe fun to watch, but are mostly to promote a particular “car enthusiast” site.
 

4.  They tend to engender competitive “Us against them” emotions between fans of each marque, and blur the complete qualities of each car.  
 

Why not just view Porsche and Tesla as complementary, not adversarial?

Wonderbar:

These “drag race“ comparisons are so senseless on so many levels. 

1.  These are both fine cars for different customers and different markets.

2.  Most Porsche and Tesla customers enjoy their cars for their own reasons, and don’t give e rat’s ass about drag race split second differences.

3.  These types of comparisons are maybe fun to watch, but are mostly to promote a particular “car enthusiast” site.
 

4.  They tend to engender competitive “Us against them” emotions between fans of each marque, and blur the complete qualities of each car.  
 

Why not just view Porsche and Tesla as complementary, not adversarial?

 

They are. They compete in completely different price segment, but somehow some people really want to say the Tesla is the better car, the faster car. Hence these comparisons. Not just against Taycans, but everything from Corvettes to Camaro to Mustangs to McLarens get compared against Tesla cars. 

Whoopsy:

Wonderbar:

These “drag race“ comparisons are so senseless on so many levels. 

1.  These are both fine cars for different customers and different markets.

2.  Most Porsche and Tesla customers enjoy their cars for their own reasons, and don’t give e rat’s ass about drag race split second differences.

3.  These types of comparisons are maybe fun to watch, but are mostly to promote a particular “car enthusiast” site.
 

4.  They tend to engender competitive “Us against them” emotions between fans of each marque, and blur the complete qualities of each car.  
 

Why not just view Porsche and Tesla as complementary, not adversarial?

 

 

They are. They compete in completely different price segment, but somehow some people really want to say the Tesla is the better car, the faster car. Hence these comparisons. Not just against Taycans, but everything from Corvettes to Camaro to Mustangs to McLarens get compared against Tesla cars. 

 

I don’t think they have to say it. I think they prove it pretty well using the same methods guys have used forever.  
It would make more sense to question why a Taycan costs twice as much with very little extra performance than to drone on and on about how one does not deserve to win. 
 

The car enthusiasts who endlessly point out shortcomings of Tesla’s seem far more removed from reality than people who enjoy them.   They grasp at anything to make silly points. The last stat I heard was how many $ per second they earn. Apparently Suzuki is the brand we should be buying, not Tesla.  ($2100 per share now, but what do I know. The stock is actually worth around $100.)

bluelines:

Funny how station wagons are considered European when they were invented in the US 

I take the new RS6 over any SUV, but for you older guys it must be easier to get in to a SUV and easier to keep up with the surroundings by sitting half a meter higher. So I get why you like SUVs.

Thank you!

An estate will ALWAYS drive better than an SUV, it's simple physics. I'll always have one above an SUV, and I'll always have an estate over a sedan. I prefer the looks, and my dog prefers the cargo space. Even if that was quite limited after visiting some wine houses last week. 

1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport

Leawood911:

Whoopsy:

Wonderbar:

These “drag race“ comparisons are so senseless on so many levels. 

1.  These are both fine cars for different customers and different markets.

2.  Most Porsche and Tesla customers enjoy their cars for their own reasons, and don’t give e rat’s ass about drag race split second differences.

3.  These types of comparisons are maybe fun to watch, but are mostly to promote a particular “car enthusiast” site.
 

4.  They tend to engender competitive “Us against them” emotions between fans of each marque, and blur the complete qualities of each car.  
 

Why not just view Porsche and Tesla as complementary, not adversarial?

 

 

They are. They compete in completely different price segment, but somehow some people really want to say the Tesla is the better car, the faster car. Hence these comparisons. Not just against Taycans, but everything from Corvettes to Camaro to Mustangs to McLarens get compared against Tesla cars. 

 

I don’t think they have to say it. I think they prove it pretty well using the same methods guys have used forever.  
It would make more sense to question why a Taycan costs twice as much with very little extra performance than to drone on and on about how one does not deserve to win. 
 

The car enthusiasts who endlessly point out shortcomings of Tesla’s seem far more removed from reality than people who enjoy them.   They grasp at anything to make silly points. The last stat I heard was how many $ per second they earn. Apparently Suzuki is the brand we should be buying, not Tesla.  ($2100 per share now, but what do I know. The stock is actually worth around $100.)

And back to the same question again, why do a Hermes handbag cost so much more than a Michael Kors?

But in the case of the Taycan vs Tesla pricetag, the difference is not mostly brand name like a handbag, you are paying for a lot more like build quality, interior, reliability, aftersale service, real world performance, handling and dynamics, design, sportiness, etc... It's more like comparing an iPhone 11 or Samsung S20 with a Huawei or Motorola, or A Rolex and a Hamilton IMO.

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Mostly a silent reader here...but having read the same arguments being repeated again and again - this thread feels like the "Groundhog Day" equivalent of the sports car world.

Yes, the Taycan is over-priced, yes, the Tesla interior feels somewhat cheap in relation to its price tag.
Can't we just move on?

Whoopsy:

Leawood911:

Whoopsy:

Wonderbar:

These “drag race“ comparisons are so senseless on so many levels. 

1.  These are both fine cars for different customers and different markets.

2.  Most Porsche and Tesla customers enjoy their cars for their own reasons, and don’t give e rat’s ass about drag race split second differences.

3.  These types of comparisons are maybe fun to watch, but are mostly to promote a particular “car enthusiast” site.
 

4.  They tend to engender competitive “Us against them” emotions between fans of each marque, and blur the complete qualities of each car.  
 

Why not just view Porsche and Tesla as complementary, not adversarial?

 

 

They are. They compete in completely different price segment, but somehow some people really want to say the Tesla is the better car, the faster car. Hence these comparisons. Not just against Taycans, but everything from Corvettes to Camaro to Mustangs to McLarens get compared against Tesla cars. 

 

I don’t think they have to say it. I think they prove it pretty well using the same methods guys have used forever.  
It would make more sense to question why a Taycan costs twice as much with very little extra performance than to drone on and on about how one does not deserve to win. 
 

The car enthusiasts who endlessly point out shortcomings of Tesla’s seem far more removed from reality than people who enjoy them.   They grasp at anything to make silly points. The last stat I heard was how many $ per second they earn. Apparently Suzuki is the brand we should be buying, not Tesla.  ($2100 per share now, but what do I know. The stock is actually worth around $100.)

 

And back to the same question again, why do a Hermes handbag cost so much more than a Michael Kors?

 

Nick, because the brand name allows them to charge more. That’s the advantage  of having a highly respected brand.

When you're going through hell.....keep going.

Carlos from Spain:

But in the case of the Taycan vs Tesla pricetag, the difference is not mostly brand name like a handbag, you are paying for a lot more like build quality, interior, reliability, aftersale service, real world performance, handling and dynamics, design, sportiness, etc... It's more like comparing an iPhone 11 or Samsung S20 with a Huawei or Motorola, or A Rolex and a Hamilton IMO.

It's not just the brand name that sells. Hermes uses higher quality leather, better craftsmanship, aftersales, etc. 

The brand power makes them get away with charging a lot for their products, but to have brand power they had to be awesome in the first place in order to be able to leverage the 'brand power'. 

Which is one reason I use handbags as the example for comparing. This actually holds true for luxury goods, if you get a Cartier Love bracelet, it comes with a lifetime warranty and free refinishing, a Walmart bracelet won't have that.

Taycan is in the luxury goods segment of EV, it was never intended to compete in the mainstream segment which Tesla occupies. That job will be for the incoming Audis to fight equivalent Model S and perhaps a VW branded EV for the Model 3 segment. The incoming Mercedes EQS, the S-Class EV, would be a comparable to the Taycan. 

Been saying it before, Tesla used to have a quasi 100% of the EV market as there was no other products. It doesn't matter if you are Bill Gates or a Walmart manager, if you want a 'expensive' EV the Model S was the only choice. Now with the Taycan, Bill Gates can move up to the Porsche product, while the Walmart manager can stick with the Model S. And on the low end, it used to be people have to wait for the 35k Model S, now there are more than a handful of cheap EVs for people to choose from. This is what's great about free market with choices. 

Most of Tesla's market are still intact, only the very top end, where people with money wanted to buy expensive stuff, is stolen by the Taycan. Taycan really doesn't affect Tesla's sales much. The only overlap would be a loaded Model S vs a Taycan 4S, that's where the brand power comes in,, like a for a little bit more money, one can step up to a Porsche from a Tesla. 

The next S is around the corner. You do realize that a Hermès bag is like $50k vs a really good $500 bag. Porsche wishes but they are no Hermes and you know better. Lol. This one is for you Tim. Handbag battle coupled with analogies only 1% get. 
 

Tesla could get away with starting with a one off roadster and then high end sedan to make the market. It was their only play and it happens to have worked because of tech domination and the ICE makers gas dependency.  
I will see how the double price (not 100x) Porsche does against the next S in all categories including fit and finish but especially in tech.  We should know more by the of the year. The stock price is not disconnected to the upcoming battery day. 

Leawood911:

The next S is around the corner. You do realize that a Hermès bag is like $50k vs a really good $500 bag. Porsche wishes but they are no Hermes and you know better. Lol. This one is for you Tim. Handbag battle coupled with analogies only 1% get. 

As we are discussing Hermes I need to jump in: I feel that Porsche and Hermes and Patek Philippe are all one class of luxury goods. They look understated but are perfect  They seem to address the exact same buyer class.

P.S.: Hermes business bag for man (I like how understated these are) is around 4500 Euro. Other higher-level brands (LV etc) are approx. 50% of that price. The 50k you mention is more for a vintage hand bag for woman in special leather...

P.P.S.: Tesla seems more like Volvo (or Saab, in earlier times) to me. Made for people who want to buy something "alternative" and show that they are less interested in status 

+1 - adding prestige factor which unfortunately for a lot of buyers is mainreason

Leawood911:

The next S is around the corner. You do realize that a Hermès bag is like $50k vs a really good $500 bag. Porsche wishes but they are no Hermes and you know better. Lol. This one is for you Tim. Handbag battle coupled with analogies only 1% get.

Is it?

First in line are the Semi, Cybertruck and Roadster 2.0(failed 2020 reveal, it got postponed).

Tesla's corners is more like an Indy500 oval  not only that but you basically have to skip the first two years of production with Tesla until they iron out half of the quality, design and build problems like bumpers going off, rain accumulating in the doors, doors not aligning or closing right, paint thinning and rust spots, etc etc...

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Carlos from Spain:

Tesla's corners is more like an Indy500 oval  not only that but you basically have to skip the first two years of production with Tesla until they iron out half of the quality, design and build problems like bumpers going off, rain accumulating in the doors, doors not aligning or closing right, paint thinning and rust spots, etc etc...

Model3 performance beats the Taycan 4s around a road course.