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Re: San Diego Drivel Licenses
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
I wish I was in a time warp. The last Ferrari I saw make ir across several state lines unassisted was the Daytona in the first Gumball Rally movie.
Porsche doesnt pick anybody's pockets that don't ask for it. Customers who demand abcdefg of cutting edge electronic handling and comfort assists or who expect a small volume producer to make a "reliable" super fast truck are never really in for a surprise are they?
Porsche tradionally used its customers for Beta testing. Mechanical problems could be fixed and stay fixed. Now in this era software and wire end issues are illusive and can roccur randomly even when "fixed. "
If anyones pocket is being picked its Ferrari customers
and servicing. Why or Why does the Maserati GT buyer get
free maintenance and longer intervals when with a Ferrari with the same V8 the customer gets to pay for all service and have shorter intervals? Is that not a chump deal or what?
Eat on comrade, but both Porsche and Ferrari have the data anaysis research on their customers and know kust how far they can jerk their chains on the trophy car dance.
These companies know how to make your checkbook become their own.
The 997S should have been the base model for Porsche. After all, the great drivers of the world are buying a high performance sport car named PORSCHE. But wait; to get the performance you have to pay more! The base model 997 performance is no different than the old 996 base model.To add insult to injury, Porsche will flood the market with look alike cars and let the great drivers eat the financial loss.
See what I mean how Porsche picks the pocket of the gullible US buyer?
Finally, I will not compare a Ferrari with a Porsche. One is a work of art sought out by more people than cars produced. The other is a mass produced eye sore that has excellent performance. If I wanted the latter, I would buy a Donkervoort for a hell of a lot less.
Re: San Diego Drivel Licenses
Quote:
nberry said:Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
I wish I was in a time warp. The last Ferrari I saw make ir across several state lines unassisted was the Daytona in the first Gumball Rally movie.
Porsche doesnt pick anybody's pockets that don't ask for it. Customers who demand abcdefg of cutting edge electronic handling and comfort assists or who expect a small volume producer to make a "reliable" super fast truck are never really in for a surprise are they?
Porsche tradionally used its customers for Beta testing. Mechanical problems could be fixed and stay fixed. Now in this era software and wire end issues are illusive and can roccur randomly even when "fixed. "
If anyones pocket is being picked its Ferrari customers
and servicing. Why or Why does the Maserati GT buyer get
free maintenance and longer intervals when with a Ferrari with the same V8 the customer gets to pay for all service and have shorter intervals? Is that not a chump deal or what?
Eat on comrade, but both Porsche and Ferrari have the data anaysis research on their customers and know kust how far they can jerk their chains on the trophy car dance.
These companies know how to make your checkbook become their own.
The 997S should have been the base model for Porsche. After all, the great drivers of the world are buying a high performance sport car named PORSCHE. But wait; to get the performance you have to pay more! The base model 997 performance is no different than the old 996 base model.To add insult to injury, Porsche will flood the market with look alike cars and let the great drivers eat the financial loss.
See what I mean how Porsche picks the pocket of the gullible US buyer?
Finally, I will not compare a Ferrari with a Porsche. One is a work of art sought out by more people than cars produced. The other is a mass produced eye sore that has excellent performance. If I wanted the latter, I would buy a Donkervoort for a hell of a lot less.
Your posts are oozing with disgustingly biased opinion that I'm wondering why I bother to reply. I guess I'm a sucker for a dumb argument.
If you're looking for performance value, why are you bothering to discuss Porsche and Ferrari? You could have easily had any number of other more reliable, more affordable options for far, far less than either. My previous Lancer Evolution (Yes, a Mitsubishi) would have eaten your Ferrari in any measure of performance (It was far from stock) for 6 figures less.
So please, if you're going to harp on price, value, and performance for the dollar, please, go buy a Mitsubishi, a Ford, or a Chevrolet. I think your wallet and Internet Porschephiles will thank you for it in the end.
Dec 30, 2004 4:57:34 PM
- John SF 2005 997 S
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So if you can't drive get the M5 and if you can, get the 997
Easy choice. They mock the rear engine layout, but where do they put the engine in F1, CART etc??? THE BACK... I really think articles like this are useless. Even the ones crowning the 997S the best are just one person's opinion... I'd rather see track times and just drive them both myself....
Dec 30, 2004 5:31:36 PM
- Bitko
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Re: So if you can't drive get the M5 and if you can, get the
Biased as he always is nberry is right about one thing, Porsche should have started with 997S as the base model, 997 is nothing more than a restyled 996. Since we love Porsche, us Porsche lovers should have every right to complain to Porsche when they do something wrong, and not act like some drones who will put up with anything. 997S Should have had atleast 380hp, and the base could be the one with 355hp. Don't you think, if the 997TT does end up having 480hp as rumoured, the difference is too big between 997S and 997TT.
Dec 30, 2004 5:55:53 PM
- Jeff (in SF)
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Re: San Diego Drivel Licenses
Quote:
nberry said:
The 997S should have been the base model for Porsche. After all, the great drivers of the world are buying a high performance sport car named PORSCHE. But wait; to get the performance you have to pay more! The base model 997 performance is no different than the old 996 base model.To add insult to injury, Porsche will flood the market with look alike cars and let the great drivers eat the financial loss.
See what I mean how Porsche picks the pocket of the gullible US buyer?
Finally, I will not compare a Ferrari with a Porsche. One is a work of art sought out by more people than cars produced. The other is a mass produced eye sore that has excellent performance. If I wanted the latter, I would buy a Donkervoort for a hell of a lot less.
Oh really?!? By your own argument, Ferrari got a leg up on you when it launched the 360. How much of a horsepower difference did it offer over the 355? Something like 20hp or less. Check the performance statistics and they're also the same between the 2 models. Your argument would also say that Ferrari buyers were gipped and should have been offered the Stradale F1 as the base model since the standard 360 didn't offer much other than styling differences from its predecessor.
I don't know what type of law you practice but I can pretty much assume you're NOT a trial lawyer. The way you argue and present your case, you'd get eaten alive by the other attorney!
Dec 30, 2004 6:29:11 PM
- Bitko
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Dec 30, 2004 6:37:58 PM
- Ed J
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Re: So if you can't drive get the M5 and if you can, get the
Quote:
John SF 2005 997 S said:
Easy choice. They mock the rear engine layout, but where do they put the engine in F1, CART etc??? THE BACK... I really think articles like this are useless. Even the ones crowning the 997S the best are just one person's opinion... I'd rather see track times and just drive them both myself....
Aren't F1 cars are mid-engined?
Re: San Diego Drivel Licenses
Nick, why are YOU so concerned about other people's money?
That's your base line, 'porsche takes advantage of the poor porsche buyers'. I haven't seen a single porsche owner unhappy with his purchase, but why are YOU so upset about it?
You're just jealous of Porsche making a lot of money.
That's your base line, 'porsche takes advantage of the poor porsche buyers'. I haven't seen a single porsche owner unhappy with his purchase, but why are YOU so upset about it?
You're just jealous of Porsche making a lot of money.
Re: sports car or brick
Guys, can you honestly say the M5 is good looking ! 
even with its 19" wheels there is a gap between wheel and wheel arch that you could park a bus in, the whole slab sided design of the new 5 series is for the boring fat man who wants comfort rather and slush rather than what can only be described as an icon in design and performance I too could have ordered both, but I dont need a 4 door and why buy a family saloon that looks no different to a Pounds35,000 5 series sport model ! not my choice regardless of speed
even with its 19" wheels there is a gap between wheel and wheel arch that you could park a bus in, the whole slab sided design of the new 5 series is for the boring fat man who wants comfort rather and slush rather than what can only be described as an icon in design and performance I too could have ordered both, but I dont need a 4 door and why buy a family saloon that looks no different to a Pounds35,000 5 series sport model ! not my choice regardless of speed
Dec 30, 2004 7:27:42 PM
- Holminator
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Dec 30, 2004 7:41:04 PM
- MMD
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Comparing interiors and exteriors
I gotta say the M5 dashboard looks really nice. The outside of the car looks good except for the horrible front bumper and grille.
The car would be a good choice for a sporty a midsized sedan. The front end of the car is the whole problem lookswise. It's the reason I won't buy one if the need arises.
Given the current mismatch maybe it makes sense to compare the 997S to the Bentley.
The car would be a good choice for a sporty a midsized sedan. The front end of the car is the whole problem lookswise. It's the reason I won't buy one if the need arises.
Given the current mismatch maybe it makes sense to compare the 997S to the Bentley.
Dec 30, 2004 8:20:48 PM
- SoCal Alan
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Re: Comparing interiors and exteriors
Quote:
MMD said:
The front end of the car is the whole problem lookswise. It's the reason I won't buy one if the need arises.
That's interesting. One reason I opted not to buy the 5 series was because of the rear, specifically the tail lights. I thought it looked kind of strange.
Dec 30, 2004 8:37:57 PM
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Carlos from Spain
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Re: San Diego Drivel Licenses
Quote:
nberry said:
Finally, I will not compare a Ferrari with a Porsche. One is a work of art sought out by more people than cars produced. The other is a mass produced eye sore that has excellent performance. If I wanted the latter, I would buy a Donkervoort for a hell of a lot less.
Please Nick, keep your feet on the ground and your commom sense and logic clear. You are beginning to sound like a fundamentalist. BTW, you take the "art" and display it in your garage, and I'll the the "excellent performance" and put it to good use, for what its meant to
Dec 30, 2004 8:42:22 PM
- MMD
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Re: Comparing interiors and exteriors
Quote:
SoCal Alan said:Quote:
MMD said:
The front end of the car is the whole problem lookswise. It's the reason I won't buy one if the need arises.
That's interesting. One reason I opted not to buy the 5 series was because of the rear, specifically the tail lights. I thought it looked kind of strange.
Yeah, noticed that, good point. You're right, even the back looks botched up.
Re: San Diego Drivel Licenses
Quote:
brunner said:
Nick, why are YOU so concerned about other people's money?
That's your base line, 'porsche takes advantage of the poor porsche buyers'. I haven't seen a single porsche owner unhappy with his purchase, but why are YOU so upset about it?
You're just jealous of Porsche making a lot of money.
Brunner sadly you are mistaken. There are several unhappy owners and the list grows when they try to sell their cars.
I am all for a corporation being profitable. What I am not for is a corporation exploiting its customer base to make obscene profits and Porsche over the past several years has done so. At this time, Porsche is wreaking havoc with its enthusiast base and if you doubt it read the other Porsche sites.
No doubt Porsche will continue to make strong profits but at is coming at a price. If you care about Porsche then now is the time to speak up especially if you are employed there. The 997 business is not brisk in the US its most important market. The Cayenne sales will decrease when first time buyers opt to go elsewhere. Boxster sales are moribund. If you value your job SPEAK OUT!
Re: Cry Havoc
Comrade nberry
I have had dealings with Porsche in the US since they were the Porsche-Audi Group in the 70's. At the executive level, Porsche has always had a tradition of dictating to their US dealers what will be, will be!
In the late '80s Porsche was going to eliminate all of their franchised dealers(!)(they still don't like the American car dealer system)and replace them with just 2 Factory owned delivery centers in the US. The lawsuits started and they reversed their decision.
Porsche management definitely has a command "you will take this and shut up" mindset. They really do not listen to their USA dealers. If you knew of some of their stranger product plans in the 90's you would be rolling on the floor in comic spasms. With that as background,currently they are doing pretty good financially!
To say that they are wreaking havoc on their customer base is bombastic. Porsche is not some altruistic organization that builds cars. Its a small German company with icon status and big egos. They look at the overall picture of production, marketing and financial costs. They do whats best for them and offer customers what management decides. so take it or leave it!
Their current financial statements show that they know what they are doing. If you have data to prove they don't please share it.
I have had dealings with Porsche in the US since they were the Porsche-Audi Group in the 70's. At the executive level, Porsche has always had a tradition of dictating to their US dealers what will be, will be!
In the late '80s Porsche was going to eliminate all of their franchised dealers(!)(they still don't like the American car dealer system)and replace them with just 2 Factory owned delivery centers in the US. The lawsuits started and they reversed their decision.
Porsche management definitely has a command "you will take this and shut up" mindset. They really do not listen to their USA dealers. If you knew of some of their stranger product plans in the 90's you would be rolling on the floor in comic spasms. With that as background,currently they are doing pretty good financially!
To say that they are wreaking havoc on their customer base is bombastic. Porsche is not some altruistic organization that builds cars. Its a small German company with icon status and big egos. They look at the overall picture of production, marketing and financial costs. They do whats best for them and offer customers what management decides. so take it or leave it!
Their current financial statements show that they know what they are doing. If you have data to prove they don't please share it.
Dec 30, 2004 11:37:40 PM
- Jeff (in SF)
- Pilot
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- Loc: SF, CA, USA , United States
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- Reply to: Bitko
Re: San Diego Drivel Licenses
Quote:Don't be silly. Remember my issues with dogma? Point out the issues with my argument. New phenomena with the horsepower race? I don't think so. With the exception of the mid-70's to early 80's, you could plot steady increases in horsepower by all manufacturers. It's called technology and the human desire to have more tomorrow than they had yesterday. Are you implying that the 25% jump in horsepower from the 360 to the 430 was a typical increase for Ferrari and means that the successor to the 430 will have 625 horsepower?
997C2S said:
Jeff your argument is not valid, the competition between the car manufacturers over hp is a new phenomena, and your example is simply too old, you should give the example of the increase in hp from 360 to F430.
Re: Cry Havoc
Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Comrade nberry
I have had dealings with Porsche in the US since they were the Porsche-Audi Group in the 70's. At the executive level, Porsche has always had a tradition of dictating to their US dealers what will be, will be!
In the late '80s Porsche was going to eliminate all of their franchised dealers(!)(they still don't like the American car dealer system)and replace them with just 2 Factory owned delivery centers in the US. The lawsuits started and they reversed their decision.
Porsche management definitely has a command "you will take this and shut up" mindset. They really do not listen to their USA dealers. If you knew of some of their stranger product plans in the 90's you would be rolling on the floor in comic spasms. With that as background,currently they are doing pretty good financially!
To say that they are wreaking havoc on their customer base is bombastic. Porsche is not some altruistic organization that builds cars. Its a small German company with icon status and big egos. They look at the overall picture of production, marketing and financial costs. They do whats best for them and offer customers what management decides. so take it or leave it!
Their current financial statements show that they know what they are doing. If you have data to prove they don't please share it.
Do you deny that Boxster sales are down over 30%?
Do you deny that 911 sales are down over 20%?
Do you deny that the CGT though a wondeful car is having difficulty selling the 1500 cars they propose to sell?
Do you deny that the GT2 was a marketing disaster?
Do you deny that approximately 50% of the profit in the financial statement is due to currency hedging?
Do you deny that resale values in of the 996/987 are abysmal?
If I was the CEO facing the above facts about my company I think I would be worried.
I realize Porsche knows what it is doing. That is why they are headed in SUV, sedan and who knows what other market. I suspect long ago they concluded they would milk the 911 as long as they had visionless 911 loyalist buying it. They are very good at what they do..exploiting their ardent base.
Finally the one time they deigned to do something radical 987/996 it was a terrific success story. But they began to believe their own propaganda and started over producing causing damage to the marque and owners value.
The only reason Porsche is not in bigger trouble is because for now they do not have a worthy competitor in their market niche which also explains their arrogance.
Re: Yes !
Sales figures? down compared from what year? The dot com boom?
CGT? How many have they sold??? Please enlighten us. I wager more CGT's have been sold than that silly gobot tart
they call the Enzo. The F430 offers near Enzo like
speed with out its nasty price, will that hurt Enzo sales?
CGT, can you find one at list price and not a 400K
premium, Yes. Can you get a F430 without a 100K extra gouge? No.
GT2 was not a marketing disaster. See flocks of unsold left overs hanging around? No.
Porsches currency hedging strategy was a brilliant move.
Whats wrong with that? Even Ford makes more profit from loaning money than building cars.
996/987 used sales? well, new always models impact sales of used previous models. Leasing money is so cheap now it makes more sense to lease a new one than buy a one-two year old one. A four year old 996 has its own market driven value.
Damage to marque and owners value? Nonsense.
Want a "visionary sports car"? look to Morgan, their Aero 8 order books are more full than Ferrari's!
The Porsche 997 is the only 2+2 180mph daily driver sports car sold for 70K (US). If it is too vin ordinaire for you, you are free to pay more for something else! There is no auto fuhrer in San Diego to march you down to the nearest Porsche store!
Porsche is a solid stand alone company. Ferrari would make the same choices if they were independent, but they aren't.
So Comrade, if you have a fantasy business strategy that Porsche should adapt thats more than just a load of Spam, please let us know.
CGT? How many have they sold??? Please enlighten us. I wager more CGT's have been sold than that silly gobot tart
they call the Enzo. The F430 offers near Enzo like
speed with out its nasty price, will that hurt Enzo sales?
CGT, can you find one at list price and not a 400K
premium, Yes. Can you get a F430 without a 100K extra gouge? No.
GT2 was not a marketing disaster. See flocks of unsold left overs hanging around? No.
Porsches currency hedging strategy was a brilliant move.
Whats wrong with that? Even Ford makes more profit from loaning money than building cars.
996/987 used sales? well, new always models impact sales of used previous models. Leasing money is so cheap now it makes more sense to lease a new one than buy a one-two year old one. A four year old 996 has its own market driven value.
Damage to marque and owners value? Nonsense.
Want a "visionary sports car"? look to Morgan, their Aero 8 order books are more full than Ferrari's!
The Porsche 997 is the only 2+2 180mph daily driver sports car sold for 70K (US). If it is too vin ordinaire for you, you are free to pay more for something else! There is no auto fuhrer in San Diego to march you down to the nearest Porsche store!
Porsche is a solid stand alone company. Ferrari would make the same choices if they were independent, but they aren't.
So Comrade, if you have a fantasy business strategy that Porsche should adapt thats more than just a load of Spam, please let us know.
Interesting discussion - where's my gasoline can?
Nick,
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I think when Aston Martin launch the AMV8 to critical acclaim, and Audi launch the Le Mans with V8 and V10 options, then Porsche may begin to look like it has real competition on its hands. As time passes the 911 looks more and more like an anachronism, even if I still want to keep buying them.
Someday Porsche has to bite the bullit and overturn their artificial hierarchy and allow the superior layout of the mid-engined Boxster to win out, or create a "Super Boxster" that will outperform the 911. Sadly for me Ferrari could be made of Unobtainium for all the difference it makes - I can't afford one, much as I would like one, or at least one that I could buy at my price level.
Did Porsche make a mistake in not trying to get Ulrich Bez to come home?
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I think when Aston Martin launch the AMV8 to critical acclaim, and Audi launch the Le Mans with V8 and V10 options, then Porsche may begin to look like it has real competition on its hands. As time passes the 911 looks more and more like an anachronism, even if I still want to keep buying them.
Someday Porsche has to bite the bullit and overturn their artificial hierarchy and allow the superior layout of the mid-engined Boxster to win out, or create a "Super Boxster" that will outperform the 911. Sadly for me Ferrari could be made of Unobtainium for all the difference it makes - I can't afford one, much as I would like one, or at least one that I could buy at my price level.
Did Porsche make a mistake in not trying to get Ulrich Bez to come home?
Dec 31, 2004 1:33:05 AM
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Ron (Houston)
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Re: Interesting discussion - where's my gasoline can?
Quote:
Le Chef said:
Nick,
I agree with a lot of what you're saying. I think when Aston Martin launch the AMV8 to critical acclaim, and Audi launch the Le Mans with V8 and V10 options, then Porsche may begin to look like it has real competition on its hands. As time passes the 911 looks more and more like an anachronism, even if I still want to keep buying them.
Did Porsche make a mistake in not trying to get Ulrich Bez to come home?
Who knows what the next 911 (998?) would look like? with the new Cheif of design I'm sure Porsche has something up their sleeves.
As to Dr. Bez, I always asked that question from myself?
Dec 31, 2004 9:44:12 AM
- Martin Tyler
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- Loc: London, UK
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- Reply to: nberry
Re: Cry Havoc
Quote:
nberry said:Do you deny that resale values in of the 996/987 are abysmal?
Is it really that bad in the US? In the UK resale values of any porsche are high... higher than ferrari according to some sources - and I dont just mean the more expensive Ferraris that lose half their value the first time you open the door and drive away.
Dec 31, 2004 4:01:54 PM
- Bitko
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- Loc: Toronto, Canada , Canada
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- Reply to: Martin Tyler
Re: Cry Havoc
nberry I don't know where you get your information, but the reality is 911 has one of the highest resale value, according to many surveys 911 retained 53% of its value even after 5 years of driving to the extreme. I dare you to drive your Ferrari in summer and winter like that and try to see where its resale value goes.
All things aside, have a Happy New Year.
All things aside, have a Happy New Year.
Dec 31, 2004 5:49:03 PM
- SoCal Alan
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Re: Cry Havoc
Quote:
nberry said:
Do you deny that Boxster sales are down over 30%?
Do you deny that 911 sales are down over 20%?
Do you deny that the CGT though a wondeful car is having difficulty selling the 1500 cars they propose to sell?
Do you deny that the GT2 was a marketing disaster?
Do you deny that approximately 50% of the profit in the financial statement is due to currency hedging?
Do you deny that resale values in of the 996/987 are abysmal?
If I was the CEO facing the above facts about my company I think I would be worried.
Nick, can you source your statistics because I would like to see for myself.
According to Autodata Corp, Porsche sales for year ending Nov 2004 is up 12.3% compared to the year before, at least, specifically in the US. November 2004 sales for the month only are down 4.6% compared to a year ago. Perhaps the latter has to do more with the new models coming out for the 911 and boxster than a long term trend.
http://www.freep.com/money/autonews/sales-tbl12e_20041202.htm
911 an anachronism?!
Quote:
Le Chef said:
... As time passes the 911 looks more and more like an anachronism, even if I still want to keep buying them.
Why is an all-in-the-rear an anachronism? Just because the herd tends to do it some other way?
BTW... mid-engine designs are not the panacea many think they are. They may have smaller polar moments, but they can be unpredictable at the limit. Once you lose it, its done, as it does not have the benefit of a bias (front or rear).
911 before, 911 now, 911 forever!
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