Crown

Where do you see Carrera GT values going in the next 6-12 months?  Will Covid-19 have a major impact or do you think they will hold?

I’m no expert, but I suspect the Carrera GT nadir was after Paul Walker’s accident. I think the current owners are into the analog experience, and less into speculation. 

I personally see cars being build 500 times and above already as to much in order to increase the value in these days. However, with Porsche you have always a higher chance of finding a buyer than some more flashy brands/cars .

Good question. I guess in three months we will know how much the current global situation affects values of these cars as well as real estate.

I personally hope that the prices are coming down and based on the cycles in previous decades that should be very likely. 

Whats the latest thinking on CGT values?

SSO.:

Whats the latest thinking on CGT values?

hope it goes down

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

Peak seems to have been exactly 5 years ago.

Mike

918 Spyder + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

When the 918 attributes hit the current production cars and effectively obsolete it, then the CGT will surpass it and be appreciated for its simplicity and purity of purpose. It is nowhere near its peak, currently "nostalgia is not what it used be"😀

People who owns them hopes they keep going up, people who wants to buy them hope they have peak and is on the way down.

^

That's true for everything "owned" under the sun, but hardly insightful as to the why and wherefore of the current, or future, trajectory? 

cnc:

^

That's true for everything "owned" under the sun, but hardly insightful as to the why and wherefore of the current, or future, trajectory? 

Long term I think they will settle down on ~500k, maybe 600k for really pristine samples, and under 500k for those that's be driven harder or neglected. The neglected ones will take a much bigger hit than normal as those will need some serious cash to fix it back up.

There are still way too many of them floating around to have any meaningful 'upside' so to speak. Last few years too many of them got snapped up by flippers, eventually these guys will have to unload. This virus thing isn't helping the economy, so these guys might be getting squeezed soon if not already. It also affects the buyers too as they might have less cash to spend, or spending priority changed. Smart buyers would just wait on the side line and let the price fall. 

cnc:

When the 918 attributes hit the current production cars and effectively obsolete it, then the CGT will surpass it and be appreciated for its simplicity and purity of purpose. It is nowhere near its peak, currently "nostalgia is not what it used be"😀

You can't obsolete a 918. Just like you can't obsolete a 959, or the GT1.

Each of these have a significant historic value to Porsche that can't be changed. 

GT1 appeared when Porsche needed to go racing and fulfill the regulation requirement. Literally a thinly disguised race car.

959 marked the transition from rear wheel drive only Porsche to all wheel drive. It is also a technological showcase of what Porsche can do when they focused on something. Variant of it won the Dakar rally, proving that Porsche isn't just King of the road, it's also King of the no-road. When it was introduced, nothing else is more advanced.

918 marked the transition from normal cars to hybrids and beyond. Future of Porsche so to speak. Knowledge gained developing the 918 helped them win Le Mans 3 times in a row with the 919 hybrid. The hybrid system also made the transition to normal road cars, spawning the Cayenne and Panamera hybrids. The electrical system knowledge also helped Porsche develop the Taycan, their pure EV car. Being the first road car to go under 7 mins on the Ring is just icing on the cake. 918 is the most complex machine Porsche ever built. It could stay that way as EVs are much simpler. 

CGT, well it stands on a very different corner. It was a salvage program to recoup cost sunked into 2 failed racing program. It has a gorgeous sounding NA V10, it is a manual car, that's about it. It never put a mark on any Porsche milestones. It is the odd duck. Heck, even Gordon Murray could have put a V10 and manual and nothing else on a car right now. There is nothing special or hard building the car. Toyota, BMW, Audi/Lamborghini have V10s, they just need to build a carbon chassis and drop the engine in and slap on a manual transmission. 

Price of CGT went up a few years ago for no reason other than Paul Walker died in one. Before than it was trading in a very reasonable range under 400k. A few individuals that couldn't get a 918 then when ahead and bought a CGT instead, adding to the demand. 

^

I think you are right on the money if you are talking about the 918 (too many cars and nascent technology), especially with the massive costs for replacing those tired old "obsolete" batteries...and there is always something newer and better.

The CGT being analog, manual, and already timeless design will continue to attract. It will become its own "Singer" with factory pedigree and its inherent idiosyncrasies. Though some insist that the lack of nannies make it unsafe - works as intended for those who take/took the time and patience to learn to drive it. Yet that reputation attracts like a moth to aflame and the thrill seekers and individualists will continue to be attracted. The trashed samples will always be discounted (with many attempting to apply lipstick in the process via flipping) but the solid cars, already (speaking of lipstick) kissing 7 figures, will continue to climb.

Just beware that many of the pristine examples are not what they purport! That's why the really good ones change hands privately and quietly. Don't believe me? Just try and buy a "good" car not for sale, you'll soon find out.

One of us will be right!  

Whoopsy:

People who owns them hopes they keep going up, people who wants to buy them hope they have peak and is on the way down.

Not true. I hope values go down as there has been utterly zero benefit from higher prices. All that it has done was remind me of the opportunity cost of mileage which is slightly irritating to think you are effectively setting fire to money everytime you drive it and increase insurance costs..... Appreciating cars are the biggest detriment to actual driving enjoyment imo.

And I agree the cgt shares little to nothing with the rest of the porsche lineup, unlike the 959 or (to a much lesser extent at least for now) the 918. It's a bit of the odd one out amongst the cars they have made and will not have any true historic value.

So let's see the CGT is the "Bastard" child of Porsche, disowned by the Parent and unwanted by the siblings. It has no place in Porsche history?

Get a grip!

It is the essence of the Porsche history, a parts bin special (if you believe your own BS). A race car for the road with no peer, built by engineers who cut their teeth on race cars and bled Porsche when Porsche was bleeding. Even training the excellent crop of design and management talent which exists today. Where do you think the inspiration and demand for excellence which exists today came from? But back then it was even  more pure because objectives were less diluted (and the fumes were intoxicating and addicting). Further, it was built when creativity was at a premium and budgets were low, literally a rabbit out of a hat.

No Porsche history..my A$$!

It is all connected!

Are looking to buy SSO? I agree with Whoopsy on 600k USD being the bottom for good examples in the current climate. Any less and they're an absolute bargain compared to what else is available around that price point, anything more is perhaps not supported given relatively high production numbers (F40 seems to be the odd one out here).

I'm almost willing to buy a broken one to put in my garden, just to have one. 

1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport

cnc:

So let's see the CGT is the "Bastard" child of Porsche, disowned by the Parent and unwanted by the siblings. It has no place in Porsche history?

Get a grip!

It is the essence of the Porsche history, a parts bin special (if you believe your own BS). A race car for the road with no peer, built by engineers who cut their teeth on race cars and bled Porsche when Porsche was bleeding. Even training the excellent crop of design and management talent which exists today. Where do you think the inspiration and demand for excellence which exists today came from? But back then it was even  more pure because objectives were less diluted (and the fumes were intoxicating and addicting). Further, it was built when creativity was at a premium and budgets were low, literally a rabbit out of a hat.

Essentially yes. Not necessarily that it has 'no place in Porsche history' but there is no line of product linked to it in any shape or form.

The cgt is a one off. there's nothing else even close to it in the entire range apart from the 997 gt cars being able to spec the seats. Not like the 959 or the 918. It's a terrific car to drive - eons better than the 4.0RS for me but I like to be realistic about what the car is or isn't wrt to 'historic value' which in any case doesn't matter hugely to me as the collectability factor doesn't affect how a car drives.

Porker:

Any less and they're an absolute bargain compared to what else is available around that price point, anything more is perhaps not supported given relatively high production numbers (F40 seems to be the odd one out here).

I'm almost willing to buy a broken one to put in my garden, just to have one. 

the cgt has the wrong horse really compared to the f40. I don't think f40 values have any link to the cgt despite their similar production numbers.

P.S it's got some mechanically very pretty bits that might work as wall decoration I admit....

Porker:

Are looking to buy SSO? I agree with Whoopsy on 600k USD being the bottom for good examples in the current climate. Any less and they're an absolute bargain compared to what else is available around that price point, anything more is perhaps not supported given relatively high production numbers (F40 seems to be the odd one out here).

I'm almost willing to buy a broken one to put in my garden, just to have one. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Porker:

Are looking to buy SSO? I agree with Whoopsy on 600k USD being the bottom for good examples in the current climate. Any less and they're an absolute bargain compared to what else is available around that price point, anything more is perhaps not supported given relatively high production numbers (F40 seems to be the odd one out here).

I'm almost willing to buy a broken one to put in my garden, just to have one. 

At some point in the future, yes.  Looking for prices to drop back down around $500k for good examples though.

isv..:

the cgt has the wrong horse really compared to the f40. I don't think f40 values have any link to the cgt despite their similar production numbers.

P.S it's got some mechanically very pretty bits that might work as wall decoration I admit....

I think F40 values live in a very different universe.  They are closely tied to where 288 GTOs and F50s sit.  

Starting next year, things could get interesting indeed... 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

cnc:

So let's see the CGT is the "Bastard" child of Porsche, disowned by the Parent and unwanted by the siblings. It has no place in Porsche history?

Get a grip!

It is the essence of the Porsche history, a parts bin special (if you believe your own BS). A race car for the road with no peer, built by engineers who cut their teeth on race cars and bled Porsche when Porsche was bleeding. Even training the excellent crop of design and management talent which exists today. Where do you think the inspiration and demand for excellence which exists today came from? But back then it was even  more pure because objectives were less diluted (and the fumes were intoxicating and addicting). Further, it was built when creativity was at a premium and budgets were low, literally a rabbit out of a hat.

No Porsche history..my A$$!

It is all connected!

I know, truth hurts. It's ok. It's also ok for you to have your own opinion. But that doesn't change the facts about the car. It also doesn't mean it's a bad car either. No one ever said the CGT isn't a proper good car. And it is still a thoroughbred Porsche inside and out, unlike say a 914.

You said it yourself, it was made when Porsche was bleeding, one of the reason why Porsche had to monetized it to recoup the capital expended. And of course it was design by race engineers, as it was a byproduct of 2 failed racing programs. 

MSRP on it was 440k, it still appreciated if one consider the reasonable estimate of ~600k for a great condition car. It did touched 7 figures in the feeding frenzy a couple years ago, but that top wasn't sustainable and together with the downturn of the world economy, price have quickly drop back down. It isn't the lone casualty, the Senna market have also collapsed, so did the P1. Even the 918 have come back down in price, at least it still trading at a premium, P1 is back at MSRP and Sennas are below MSRP.

Go Senna Go

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

the-missile:

Go Senna Go

but which way you want it to go? Up? Or down? 

Whoopsy:

cnc:

So let's see the CGT is the "Bastard" child of Porsche, disowned by the Parent and unwanted by the siblings. It has no place in Porsche history?

Get a grip!

It is the essence of the Porsche history, a parts bin special (if you believe your own BS). A race car for the road with no peer, built by engineers who cut their teeth on race cars and bled Porsche when Porsche was bleeding. Even training the excellent crop of design and management talent which exists today. Where do you think the inspiration and demand for excellence which exists today came from? But back then it was even  more pure because objectives were less diluted (and the fumes were intoxicating and addicting). Further, it was built when creativity was at a premium and budgets were low, literally a rabbit out of a hat.

No Porsche history..my A$$!

It is all connected!

 

I know, truth hurts. It's ok. It's also ok for you to have your own opinion. But that doesn't change the facts about the car. It also doesn't mean it's a bad car either. No one ever said the CGT isn't a proper good car. And it is still a thoroughbred Porsche inside and out, unlike say a 914.

You said it yourself, it was made when Porsche was bleeding, one of the reason why Porsche had to monetized it to recoup the capital expended. And of course it was design by race engineers, as it was a byproduct of 2 failed racing programs. 

MSRP on it was 440k, it still appreciated if one consider the reasonable estimate of ~600k for a great condition car. It did touched 7 figures in the feeding frenzy a couple years ago, but that top wasn't sustainable and together with the downturn of the world economy, price have quickly drop back down. It isn't the lone casualty, the Senna market have also collapsed, so did the P1. Even the 918 have come back down in price, at least it still trading at a premium, P1 is back at MSRP and Sennas are below MSRP.

 

 

You can't do this on a 918 though 

⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

Whoopsy:

the-missile:

Go Senna Go

but which way you want it to go? Up? Or down? 

let me rephrase Down Senna Down

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

Carlos from Spain:

Whoopsy:

cnc:

So let's see the CGT is the "Bastard" child of Porsche, disowned by the Parent and unwanted by the siblings. It has no place in Porsche history?

Get a grip!

It is the essence of the Porsche history, a parts bin special (if you believe your own BS). A race car for the road with no peer, built by engineers who cut their teeth on race cars and bled Porsche when Porsche was bleeding. Even training the excellent crop of design and management talent which exists today. Where do you think the inspiration and demand for excellence which exists today came from? But back then it was even  more pure because objectives were less diluted (and the fumes were intoxicating and addicting). Further, it was built when creativity was at a premium and budgets were low, literally a rabbit out of a hat.

No Porsche history..my A$$!

It is all connected!

 

I know, truth hurts. It's ok. It's also ok for you to have your own opinion. But that doesn't change the facts about the car. It also doesn't mean it's a bad car either. No one ever said the CGT isn't a proper good car. And it is still a thoroughbred Porsche inside and out, unlike say a 914.

You said it yourself, it was made when Porsche was bleeding, one of the reason why Porsche had to monetized it to recoup the capital expended. And of course it was design by race engineers, as it was a byproduct of 2 failed racing programs. 

MSRP on it was 440k, it still appreciated if one consider the reasonable estimate of ~600k for a great condition car. It did touched 7 figures in the feeding frenzy a couple years ago, but that top wasn't sustainable and together with the downturn of the world economy, price have quickly drop back down. It isn't the lone casualty, the Senna market have also collapsed, so did the P1. Even the 918 have come back down in price, at least it still trading at a premium, P1 is back at MSRP and Sennas are below MSRP.

 

 

You can't do this on a 918 though 

Did Whoopsy just dog my precious little 914?  That was my first car. I bought it when I was as still 15. $3200 for a 1972 1.7 liter Orange!  In 1979. Just 911s since that car. I was almost killed in when hit by a drunk driver in a Chevrolet. Still have the tattoo of the green car in my left shoulder. Okay, so that car did suck but it was a challenge to drive well. Dogleg five speed. 

CGT was the first car to have a carbon fiber cradle for the engine. The best alternative between stressed and unstressed engine (in traditional steel cradle)

sportcars-history.com

Whoopsy:

cnc:

When the 918 attributes hit the current production cars and effectively obsolete it, then the CGT will surpass it and be appreciated for its simplicity and purity of purpose. It is nowhere near its peak, currently "nostalgia is not what it used be"😀

 

You can't obsolete a 918. Just like you can't obsolete a 959, or the GT1.

Each of these have a significant historic value to Porsche that can't be changed. 

GT1 appeared when Porsche needed to go racing and fulfill the regulation requirement. Literally a thinly disguised race car.

959 marked the transition from rear wheel drive only Porsche to all wheel drive. It is also a technological showcase of what Porsche can do when they focused on something. Variant of it won the Dakar rally, proving that Porsche isn't just King of the road, it's also King of the no-road. When it was introduced, nothing else is more advanced.

918 marked the transition from normal cars to hybrids and beyond. Future of Porsche so to speak. Knowledge gained developing the 918 helped them win Le Mans 3 times in a row with the 919 hybrid. The hybrid system also made the transition to normal road cars, spawning the Cayenne and Panamera hybrids. The electrical system knowledge also helped Porsche develop the Taycan, their pure EV car. Being the first road car to go under 7 mins on the Ring is just icing on the cake. 918 is the most complex machine Porsche ever built. It could stay that way as EVs are much simpler. 

CGT, well it stands on a very different corner. It was a salvage program to recoup cost sunked into 2 failed racing program. It has a gorgeous sounding NA V10, it is a manual car, that's about it. It never put a mark on any Porsche milestones. It is the odd duck. Heck, even Gordon Murray could have put a V10 and manual and nothing else on a car right now. There is nothing special or hard building the car. Toyota, BMW, Audi/Lamborghini have V10s, they just need to build a carbon chassis and drop the engine in and slap on a manual transmission. 

Price of CGT went up a few years ago for no reason other than Paul Walker died in one. Before than it was trading in a very reasonable range under 400k. A few individuals that couldn't get a 918 then when ahead and bought a CGT instead, adding to the demand. 

 

Very well said about the place in Porsche history of each of these hypercars. Another thing about the 918: Yes eventually there will be a number of sportscars with the same technology as the 918 (Hybrid, 4WD,... like the SF90 for e.g.). But I doubt very much that these sportscars will have the hybrid architecture coupled with a race-derived engine like the 918. Another feature that makes it forever unique.