Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices? - Page1

Dec 22, 2004 11:24:47 AM

Ed J: Pilot; Loc: London; Posts: 407, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 4, 2004

Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

I was talking last night with a friend of mine who has owned Porsches for years. He advised me against buying a C2S as he thought the second hand price would drop dramatically once the four wheel drive version came out.

It got me thinking whether it was worth putting my name on the waiting list for the C4 now - I get my C2S in March.

Anyone any thoughts about this?

Cheers,

Ed

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Dec 22, 2004 11:36:27 AM

Ron (Houston): Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Houston, TX , United States; Posts: 8812, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 10, 2002; Reply to: Ed J

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

Raven,

I don't believe C4 would hamper the C2 market at all.
C2 and C4 are targeted for different audiences IMO. They're people that like the fact that C2 is not 4WD and they're some that enjoy C4 for its 4WD feature.

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Dec 22, 2004 11:39:02 AM

crayphile: Rennteam Pro; Loc: England , United Kingdom; Posts: 2861, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 16, 2004; Reply to: Ed J

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

Quote:
Raven said:
I was talking last night with a friend of mine who has owned Porsches for years. He advised me against buying a C2S as he thought the second hand price would drop dramatically once the four wheel drive version came out.

It got me thinking whether it was worth putting my name on the waiting list for the C4 now - I get my C2S in March.

Anyone any thoughts about this?

Cheers,

Ed

This has not been the case previously is the politest response I can give to your friend's scaremongering

. . Hang in there and get the 997S, enjoy it, and then get the only 4wd variant worth having - the 997TT when it arrives. Demand is still outstripping supply for the 997S. However, let's not kid ourselves the days of "bullet proof" residuals for Porsches in the UK are long gone.

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Dec 22, 2004 2:17:57 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: Ed J

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

Quote:
Raven said:
I was talking last night with a friend of mine who has owned Porsches for years. He advised me against buying a C2S as he thought the second hand price would drop dramatically once the four wheel drive version came out.

It got me thinking whether it was worth putting my name on the waiting list for the C4 now - I get my C2S in March.

Anyone any thoughts about this?

Cheers,

Ed

Alot of people aren't interested in the heavier, number feeling AWD car and instead prefer the driver's RWD car. The C4 shouldn't have any affect on the C2S except maybe diluting new C2S sales.

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Dec 22, 2004 3:06:40 PM

stone: Co-Pilot; Loc: Taunton, UK; Posts: 216, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 13, 2004; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

I agree with crayphile in that if you ordered a c2s today in the UK you would be lucky to take delivery before summer, so I doubt figures will drop that much. If you put your name down now for a c4 you will be lucky to take delivery before April 06, due to the pre orders already on the list - Why wait 16 months ! If you are at all worried get the c2s and also put your name down, sell the car on after a year.

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Dec 22, 2004 3:08:30 PM

stone: Co-Pilot; Loc: Taunton, UK; Posts: 216, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 13, 2004; Reply to: stone

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

forgot to add, someone will be real happy if you cancel, as then they can jump into your place and get an 05 plate!

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Dec 22, 2004 3:53:34 PM

peecarfan: Junior; Loc: usa; Posts: 149, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 25, 2004; Reply to: stone

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

,< as then they can jump into your place and get an 05 plate>

As long as we are on the subject, can someone explain the British fascination with liscense plate numbers ? pages and pages of ads, and auctions, all for a plate ?

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Dec 22, 2004 4:44:42 PM

Ed J: Pilot; Loc: London; Posts: 407, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 4, 2004; Reply to: peecarfan

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

Quote:
peecarfan said:
,< as then they can jump into your place and get an 05 plate>

As long as we are on the subject, can someone explain the British fascination with liscense plate numbers ? pages and pages of ads, and auctions, all for a plate ?

Yes - it must sound crazy how we are prepared to wait up to 3-4 months for the new licence plate, but the reason it that it makes such a massive difference to resale values - eg if I took delivery on my C2S in January as opposed to March, I would get it on a 54 plate rather than an 05 plate and the impact on resale would be massive. I hate it, and would much prefer we scrapped the silly system and went for a regional systems like the FRench or the Germans. STill, can't be helped.

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Dec 22, 2004 9:13:43 PM

KenH: Co-Pilot; Loc: Leesburg VA; Posts: 249, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 23, 2004; Reply to: Ed J

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

The US equivalent is the "model year". An O5 "whatever" will usually be worth more than an 04 "whatever", even if there is no difference in the specs, because that is how the guide books differentiate the cars. Most used car dealers don't know the market that well and base their buying and selling prices on the published guides.
In the UK the model year is largely ignored (most people don't even know what model year their car is) and the registration date (and thus the license plate details which result from that) are what is used to value the car.
The pages of advertisements for numbers that one sees are for personal registrations that by-pass the regular licenses plate formats. The UK does not allow the same kind of cheap'n'easy custom plates that most US states do so "official" plates that can be interpreted to mean something (often very tenuously) are highly valued.
Also they hide the age of your car. So you can have an older car that is not so obviously old or, if your thinking is the reverse, you can disguise the fact that your car is new with an old plate.

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Dec 22, 2004 11:23:18 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

Quote:
ben, lj said:
Alot of people aren't interested in the heavier, number feeling AWD car and instead prefer the driver's RWD car. The C4 shouldn't have any affect on the C2S except maybe diluting new C2S sales.

Interestingly enough that applies to the current C4S vs the C2, as the C4S (coupe) weighs 3296lbs. However, the C4 coupe (which I have) only weighs 3032lbs and the weight balance is better than the C2.

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Dec 23, 2004 1:07:16 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59590, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: Ed J

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

I don't think so. Of course the C4S will probably retain a better value but on the other hand, it will be slightly heavier than the CS, so I don't know.
I'm not sure if Porsche is gonna build a C4 (not S), right now I heard only rumors about the C4S!

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Dec 25, 2004 4:28:40 PM

pcosta: Co-Pilot; Loc: New Canaan, CT, USA , United States; Posts: 236, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 17, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

RC, do you expect the C4S to have better control in winter driving?

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Dec 25, 2004 6:03:16 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: ADias

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

Quote:
ADias said:
Quote:
ben, lj said:
Alot of people aren't interested in the heavier, number feeling AWD car and instead prefer the driver's RWD car. The C4 shouldn't have any affect on the C2S except maybe diluting new C2S sales.

Interestingly enough that applies to the current C4S vs the C2, as the C4S (coupe) weighs 3296lbs. However, the C4 coupe (which I have) only weighs 3032lbs and the weight balance is better than the C2.

Is 3032 what the manual says or have you actually had it weighed? The manual is notoriously low.

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Dec 25, 2004 7:59:13 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: peecarfan

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

Quote:
peecarfan said:
,< as then they can jump into your place and get an 05 plate>

As long as we are on the subject, can someone explain the British fascination with liscense plate numbers ? pages and pages of ads, and auctions, all for a plate ?

One part of the answer to this question is the fact that British license plates normally stay with a car for its life instead of being changed when the car is sold, as is the case in many European countries and in the USA.

So a plate on a car bought new just after change of "year" makes that car "newer" for it's entire life when it is resold than if the car is first registered just before the cut-off date.

Another part is that you can buy "personalized" plates, which is what you see in the ads.

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Dec 25, 2004 9:09:13 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

Quote:
ben, lj said:
Quote:
ADias said:
Interestingly enough that applies to the current C4S vs the C2, as the C4S (coupe) weighs 3296lbs. However, the C4 coupe (which I have) only weighs 3032lbs and the weight balance is better than the C2.

Is 3032 what the manual says or have you actually had it weighed? The manual is notoriously low.

The early C4 coupes like mine and Antonio's are offcially 3025kg (which even with the AWD was still lighter than a 997 for example) and C4S are officially 3296lbs. Thats a surprisiung 271 lbs difference.
Slap on a RoW-M030 suspension on the C4 (no carrera should be without it) which dials out the understeer and some 18" wheels with the original 265 sized rears (the early carrera's rear sizes are 265 instead of the latter 285 of the C4S which also induce more understeer) and you have two completely different "feeling" AWD's.

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Dec 25, 2004 9:15:13 PM

Bitko: Pilot; Loc: Toronto, Canada , Canada; Posts: 388, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 25, 2004; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

My dealer told me that chances are very slim for a C4, there might be only C4S.

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Dec 26, 2004 1:57:36 AM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

Quote:
Carlos from Spain said:
Quote:
ben, lj said:
Quote:
ADias said:
Interestingly enough that applies to the current C4S vs the C2, as the C4S (coupe) weighs 3296lbs. However, the C4 coupe (which I have) only weighs 3032lbs and the weight balance is better than the C2.

Is 3032 what the manual says or have you actually had it weighed? The manual is notoriously low.

The early C4 coupes like mine and Antonio's are offcially 3025kg (which even with the AWD was still lighter than a 997 for example) and C4S are officially 3296lbs. Thats a surprisiung 271 lbs difference.
Slap on a RoW-M030 suspension on the C4 (no carrera should be without it) which dials out the understeer and some 18" wheels with the original 265 sized rears (the early carrera's rear sizes are 265 instead of the latter 285 of the C4S which also induce more understeer) and you have two completely different "feeling" AWD's.

fwiw, going to 285 from 265 while leaving the fronts the same 225 would increase understeer as you are increasing the grip in the rear while leaving it the same in the front.

btw, when you say "officially" are you going by the notoriously low manual (at best the low end of the range given in the manual assumes a stripper with zero options) or did you and/or anthony actually weigh your cars full of gas? that seems a very low # for a C4 full of gas.

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Dec 26, 2004 7:27:18 AM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

I go by the manual and think that my options do not add too much weight. I agree w/ Carlos that the 996 C4 is just slightly heavier than a C2 and equally nimble. A terrific choice and I'm told maintaining better resale values because few were produced.

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Dec 26, 2004 9:41:17 AM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 21152, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: Is the arrival of the C4 going to hit C2 prices?

Quote:
ben, lj said:
fwiw, going to 285 from 265 while leaving the fronts the same 225 would increase understeer as you are increasing the grip in the rear while leaving it the same in the front.

Thats what I said

The early carreras used 265 on the rears for the optional 18" wheels, then later Porsche went to 285 in the carreras and in the C4S they even go to 295 (front is still 225) for better looks do to the wide body needing wider tires to match the looks of the body, which increases understeer further compared to the original 265 rears.

Quote:
btw, when you say "officially" are you going by the notoriously low manual (at best the low end of the range given in the manual assumes a stripper with zero options) or did you and/or anthony actually weigh your cars full of gas? that seems a very low # for a C4 full of gas.

I used the same official curb weight figures for both cars for comparison purposes, so we can get the exact difference between them, any added weight of any extra added later depends on the specific owner/car, but the inherent weight difference is 271 lbs.

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