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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    waiting for PDK:

    You can hear the sounds of a bubble about to, if not burst, certainly get squeezed.

    This morning on the radio I heard a commercial from the local Aston Martin dealership advertising their lease rates on the Vantage.

    I've also started receiving mail offering me great deals on the 992.

    Mercedes Stock -30% lost 12M

    Bmw similar

     


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    AM


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    All car manufacturers are suffering from declining new car sales. In part it can be attributed to the COVID-19 virus but I also believe pricing has reached a tipping point. No doubt the 992 turbo S is a terrific car but so was the prior model and the model before that. There is only so much a manufacturer can do to entice a buyer to buy their car. The S gets a big boast in power so that the buy will know its there. Walliser stated 20-30hp is not recognizable to the average buyer. Thus the reason for the 70hp jump.

    Also, for most people, car prices are rising much faster than their yearly income.   As I posted above, why would a buyer be willing to pay an additional $100,000 just to get more speed which will rarely be used?Smiley


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    When you're going through hell.....keep going.

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Do those second hand 675 LT actually get bought ? The ones I see seem to be sitting for month in the show room. 
    For me it is impossible that the market can absorb all the second hand super cars + all new ones. The offer is just too important with so many manufacturers offering interesting cars and limited editions. 
     

    A friend of mine , who owns Ferrari’s for years , just got his Pista. We were talking about resale and he recons that if he tries to sell the Pista now he would just get slightly above his paid price. 


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     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    The world is different than even a few years ago. You would never have guessed there are brand new 488 sitting in the showroom unsold. it used to be only 'used' one are sitting there.


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    MY dealer has a used RS (3600 miles) almost identical to mine and it has been sitting in his showroom for months. He started at $235,000. Now he's down to $199,000 and probably will take less. So it goes.surprise


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    When you're going through hell.....keep going.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    765LT "spider" render






    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Topspeed:

     

    • Front: 765LT
    • Side: draw
    • Rear: 720S

      Smiley

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    We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90ASi1v6Fvw

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    This is worth a watch, this guy is the only Mclaren independent in the UK and actually offers his own warranty to compete with the factory's. 

    https://youtu.be/E8kFwsiVWu8


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    997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

    2018 McLaren 720S 

    993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    great video and not your usual car video. The ECU placement was shocking to see but understand why its there.....

    watching his other videos now


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    Tesla Model S P100d. 2018 991.2 GT3. 2019 BMW M850i Convertible. 2020 Tesla Model 3 Performance. 2020 Aston Martin Vantage. 2020 Mclaren 720S coupe. 🥳


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Really nice to watch...I learned a lot!

    Thanks for sharingwink


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    McLaren update for Rennteam members... (22 June 2020)  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

    Please note that McLaren is in a legal dispute with existing bondholders as the company seeks to raise additional debt secured on its heritage assets, including the group’s collection of F1 racing cars and the Technology Centre in Woking.

    The company has requested a court judgement by 10 July 2020, as it expected to run out of liquidity by 17 July 2020... Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    McLaren update for Rennteam members... (22 June 2020)  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

    Please note that McLaren is in a legal dispute with existing bondholders as the company seeks to raise additional debt secured on its heritage assets, including the group’s collection of F1 racing cars and the Technology Centre in Woking.

    The company has requested a court judgement by 10 July 2020, as it expected to run out of liquidity by 17 July 2020... Smiley

    no worries, McLaren is not alone in the sinking boat...we are going to see this story to keep repeating in the coming months. the unknown parameter is to which extent. Smiley


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    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Maybe VW should buy McLaren? It would fit their portfolio well and they could learn a thing or two from them (I guess).

     


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:

    Maybe VW should buy McLaren? It would fit their portfolio well and they could learn a thing or two from them (I guess).

     

    Well, let's see first how VW will handle this current situation...Smiley


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    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    the-missile:
    RC:

    Maybe VW should buy McLaren? It would fit their portfolio well and they could learn a thing or two from them (I guess).

     

    Well, let's see first how VW will handle this current situation...Smiley

    So far, they are doing pretty well...surprisingly well. I guess they have enough money to live through the crisis but will it be enough? I doubt it.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:

    Maybe VW should buy McLaren? It would fit their portfolio well and they could learn a thing or two from them (I guess).

    Perhaps, VW would recruit key personnel from McLaren and transfer know-how. Much cheaper than buying a financially problematic company.

    Moreover, I believe most of McLaren technology is subcontracted, like engines and gearboxes from Ricardo, carbon tubs by an Austrian company etc, so people are the main asset.


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    reginos:
    RC:

    Maybe VW should buy McLaren? It would fit their portfolio well and they could learn a thing or two from them (I guess).

    Perhaps, VW would recruit key personnel from McLaren and transfer know-how. Much cheaper than buying a financially problematic company.

    Moreover, I believe most of McLaren technology is subcontracted, like engines and gearboxes from Ricardo, carbon tubs by an Austrian company etc, so people are the main asset.


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     

    You really think that the people are the main asset and Porsche, Lamborghini and Audi do not have similarly capable engineers? Smiley The truth is: Everything is about money and cost. Give Porsche and Lamborghini the financial freedom McLaren had (meaning: much lower gains per car) and you'll see what happens.

    Bottom line is: VW Group is greedy. It shows. Prices. Porsche and Lamborghini.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    RC:
    reginos:
    RC:

    Maybe VW should buy McLaren? It would fit their portfolio well and they could learn a thing or two from them (I guess).

    Perhaps, VW would recruit key personnel from McLaren and transfer know-how. Much cheaper than buying a financially problematic company.

    Moreover, I believe most of McLaren technology is subcontracted, like engines and gearboxes from Ricardo, carbon tubs by an Austrian company etc, so people are the main asset.


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     

    You really think that the people are the main asset and Porsche, Lamborghini and Audi do not have similarly capable engineers? Smiley The truth is: Everything is about money and cost. Give Porsche and Lamborghini the financial freedom McLaren had (meaning: much lower gains per car) and you'll see what happens.

    Bottom line is: VW Group is greedy. It shows. Prices. Porsche and Lamborghini.

    So if McLaren people will not bring any added value and McLaren tech is mainly bought in, then I don't think VW should bother to bid for McLaren, in the theoretical case that they come up for sale? McLaren would be more suitable for a Chinese or Koren buyer.

    IMO Porsche are the best automobile engineering firm. Whatever you assign to them they excel on both road and track,. sportscars, SUVs, limousines, EVs, Le Mans winners , NBR record breakers etc etc.


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    The knowhow and the patents and of course the brand name, this would be worth buying. The engineers are interchangeable, modern sports cars are not new EVs, the tech is pretty much old school, even if they find something new to develop from time to time.

    There is a (marketing) reason why Porsche puts a face on the name(s) of the GT car(s) development team.

    Do we really know the guys behind the regular Carrera and especially Boxster/Cayman and Macan/Cayenne as well?! Smiley

    Everything is about money, as sad as this may sound. Smiley

    Each model needs to achieve a certain given monetary gain (profit). Everything is calculated down to the last cent.

    I do not know how much profit McLaren makes with each 720S or 600LT but I bet it is not even close to what Porsche makes.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Perhaps TATA could be the one to buy McLaren. They already owned the other 2 British marque Jaguar and Land Rover after all.

    The only attractive component of McLaren to VAG is the F1 team, but VAG have no intention to race in F1 so that's a moot point. VAG has an answer to literally even McLaren product, so it make no sense for them to try and integrate McLaren cars into their portfolio. 

    Under Piech VAG's product stack across all their brands was a mess, they compete with each other instead of with outside companies, with him out of the way finally can VAG rearrange their products into distinct segments and not cannibalizing their own sales. Adding in McLaren would just mess things up again.

     


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Whoopsy:

    Perhaps TATA could be the one to buy McLaren. They already owned the other 2 British marque Jaguar and Land Rover after all.

    The only attractive component of McLaren to VAG is the F1 team, but VAG have no intention to race in F1 so that's a moot point. VAG has an answer to literally even McLaren product, so it make no sense for them to try and integrate McLaren cars into their portfolio. 

    Under Piech VAG's product stack across all their brands was a mess, they compete with each other instead of with outside companies, with him out of the way finally can VAG rearrange their products into distinct segments and not cannibalizing their own sales. Adding in McLaren would just mess things up again.

    JLR already has quite a lot on its plate and is rated sub-investment grade...  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

    JAGUAR LAND ROVER REPORTS FOURTH QUARTER AND FULL-YEAR RESULTS FOR FISCAL 2019/20

    (15 June 2020)

    • After return to profit in the second and third quarters, Covid-19 disruption significantly impacts fourth quarter and full-year results for Fiscal 2019/20
    • Retail unit sales fall 30.9% in Q4 and 12.1% in Fiscal 2019/20
    • Full-year pre-tax loss of £422 million on revenues of £23 billion but EBIT margin almost break-even (-0.1%), up 0.6 percentage points from a year ago
    • Positive Q4 cash flow of £225 million
    • ‘Charge’ transformation programme delivers savings of £3.5 billion by 31 March 2020; target increased to £5 billion by 31 March 2021
    • Solid liquidity position of £5.6 billion with £3.7 billion of cash, financial deposits and £1.9 billion undrawn credit facility

    Whitley, UK, 15 June 2020: Jaguar Land Rover Automotive plc today reported financial results for the fourth quarter and financial year ending 31 March 2020. 

    The company returned to profitability with improved operating cash flow in the second and third quarters, reflecting  double-digit retail sales growth in China, as well as cost and cash flow improvements under its Project Charge transformation programme. Prior to the emergence of the Covid-19 pandemic, the company expected these trends to continue in the fourth quarter to achieve a full-year profit and meet its other financial targets for Fiscal 2019/20.

    The Covid-19 pandemic significantly impacted Q4 and full-year Fiscal 2019/20.  Fourth quarter retail sales were 109,869 units, down 30.9% year-on-year, while  full year sales totalled 508,659 vehicles, down 12.1% year-on-year. As a result of lower unit sales, the company made a pre-tax loss of £501 million in Q4 and £422 million for the full year, on revenues of £5.4 billion and £23 billion respectively. 

    Earnings Before Interest and Tax (EBIT, which also excludes foreign exchange and commodity revaluation) were almost break-even for the year at £(24) million (EBIT margin of -0.1% was up 0.6 percentage points) and the company achieved positive cash flow of £225 million in Q4. The company ended the quarter with solid liquidity of £5.6 billion including £3.7 billion of cash and a £1.9 billion undrawn revolving credit facility.

    Jaguar Land Rover responded quickly to the Covid-19 situation, implementing a temporary shutdown of all plants and rigorous cost and investment controls to conserve cash. The company is now seeing encouraging recovery in China and is gradually resuming production at the Solihull, Halewood and engine plants in the UK, as well as its Slovakia plant  and the contract assembly line in Austria.

    Jaguar Land Rover’s early action to transform its business meant that as a company we were on track to meet our full-year expectations and operational and financial targets before the pandemic hit in the fourth quarter. We also reacted quickly to the disruption caused by Covid-19. Our immediate priority has been the health and wellbeing of our people – and this remains the case as we have now begun the gradual, safe restart of our operations. — Prof Sir Ralf Speth, Jaguar Land Rover Chief Executive

    The company saw strong demand over the year for the new Range Rover Evoque, sales of which rose by 24.7% year-on-year and the all-electric Jaguar I-PACE, with sales up 40%. Sales of the refreshed Land Rover Discovery Sport are expected to continue to grow following its March launch in China.

    New products will support the recovery of the business, including the ramp-up of the unparalleled new-generation Land Rover Defender; plug-in hybrid versions of the Range Rover Evoque and Land Rover Discovery Sport with new 1.5-litre 3-cylinder Ingenium petrol engine; and the exciting, newly-refreshed Jaguar F-TYPE.  

    The company is planning for a gradual recovery as lockdowns are relaxed and economies respond. The pick-up in China has been encouraging with all retailers now open, contributing to unit sales of 6,828 vehicles in April (down only 3.1% year-on-year) and 8,068 in May (up 4.2%). Sales of Range Rover and Range Rover Sport have been particularly encouraging.

    Other regions saw the full impact of lockdowns in April and May with total worldwide sales of 14,709 vehicles in April (down 62.5% year-on-year) and 24,024 in May (down 43.3%). However, sales are expected to recover as retailers reopen. Most recently, about 89% of retailers worldwide are fully or partially open.

    The company plans to resume production gradually to meet recovering demand. The Solihull and Halewood vehicle manufacturing plants and engine plant in the UK, the Slovakia plant and contract manufacturing line in Graz (Austria) have restarted. The reopening of our other plants will be confirmed in due course, while the joint-venture plant in China has been open since late February.  

    In this uncertain situation, Jaguar Land Rover will continue to manage costs and investment spending rigorously to protect liquidity. Cost and cash improvements under Project Charge increased by £600 million in Q4 to bring cumulative savings to £3.5 billion by 31 March 2020. The company has increased the Charge target for March 2021 by £1.0 billion to £5.0 billion. As part of this, Jaguar Land Rover has been deferring or delaying lower-margin and non-critical investment. The company is targeting investment spending in the region of £2.5 billion in Fiscal 2020/21: substantially lower than the spending of £3.3 billion in Fiscal 2019/20 and £3.8 billion in Fiscal 2018/19.  Against the backdrop of the Covid-19 pandemic, the company has taken the difficult decision to reduce the number of contract-agency employees in its manufacturing plants over the coming months.


    As a result of the impact of worldwide lock downs on sales and plant shutdowns, free cash flow was negative c. £1.5 billion in April and May, including one-time working capital outflows of c. £1.2 billion; free cash flow for the full quarter ending 30 June is expected to be less than £2 billion negative. The outlook with Covid-19 remains uncertain. However, Jaguar Land Rover expects a gradual recovery of sales consistent with industry estimates and improving cash flow boosted by the recovery of working capital, lower investment and other Project Charge cost reductions for the remainder of the current fiscal year.

    In such uncertain times, I remain convinced that Jaguar Land Rover’s focus on its people, its innovative products and its Destination Zero mission will remain the key to navigating out of this global crisis effectively. In China, we are beginning to see recovery in vehicle sales and customers are returning to our showrooms. Our operational fitness gives me confidence that we can weather this storm. — Prof Sir Ralf Speth, Jaguar Land Rover Chief Executive

    PDF Link: https://media.jlrms.com/2020-06/Q4%20FY20%20Investor%20Presentation%20FINAL%20v1.03.pdf?YVilKmAjyranUDUIUODUiHsimf_Py22o


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Boxster Coupe GTS:
     

    JLR already has quite a lot on its plate and is rated sub-investment grade...  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

     

    There is another part of the equation which most would not understands.

    That would be the psychological one. India was a British Colony. Independent now, but buying up and owning something British by someone from the former colony is quite a psychological victory and achievement. It's like saying 'Who is owning who now'. 

     


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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Whoopsy:
    Boxster Coupe GTS:
     

    JLR already has quite a lot on its plate and is rated sub-investment grade...  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

     

    There is another part of the equation which most would not understands.

    That would be the psychological one. India was a British Colony. Independent now, but buying up and owning something British by someone from the former colony is quite a psychological victory and achievement. It's like saying 'Who is owning who now'. 

     

    Good point, never thought about that. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    McLaren Automotive is not an evocative  world brand like Ferrari and Lamborghini.

    Therefore, I don't think that someone might jump at the opportunity to acquire. McLaren  have been in the road car business for merely a decade. They have made some good and some excellent sportscars mainly with bought-in hardware. I like the 720S and the 570GT very much but if I were to spend that sort of money I would have bought something from the established brands. McLaren are appreciated mostly in some mature markets like North America, Germany and of course the UK. They are a long way off the super-sports establishment  in terms of global allure in order to command a strong position of power..

    The F1 team hasn't been successful for many years now and if you ask me F1 racing is a big liability that barely brings any sales to the investing manufacturers.

    I'm afraid  that if McLaren don't manage to sort out their financial situation themselves they might wither away similarly to so many ambitious but now defunct sportscar manufacturers in history, That will be  a very sad development for enthusiasts..


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    reginos:

    McLaren Automotive is not an evocative  world brand like Ferrari and Lamborghini.

    Therefore, I don't think that someone might jump at the opportunity to acquire. McLaren  have been in the road car business for merely a decade. They have made some good and some excellent sportscars mainly with bought-in hardware. I like the 720S and the 570GT very much but if I were to spend that sort of money I would have bought something from the established brands. McLaren are appreciated mostly in some mature markets like North America, Germany and of course the UK. They are a long way off the super-sports establishment  in terms of global allure in order to command a strong position of power..

    The F1 team hasn't been successful for many years now and if you ask me F1 racing is a big liability that barely brings any sales to the investing manufacturers.

    I'm afraid  that if McLaren don't manage to sort out their financial situation themselves they might wither away similarly to so many ambitious but now defunct sportscar manufacturers in history, That will be  a very sad development for enthusiasts..

    -"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

    Mclaren's are in all the video games they are super aspirational throughout the world I would say ahead of Ferrari and Lamborghini who make older generation cars, the bought in component argument which one hears from non owners is really lame, the engines are from Ricardo an F1 supplier, they are incredible technology and super robust, the boxes from Granzio a top tier auto box manufacturer - it is a massively positive argument for Mclaren IMO Smiley

    Mclaren messed up with their strategy of making too many cars and destroyed the resale but then this is good for people who "only" want to spend £150K, they can get a frikkin 720S now Smiley

    The financial woes are connected to their strategy and COVID interrupting it, I think even without COVID Mclaren would've begun struggling as there are only so many repeat customers willing to drop £100K depreciation in the first year on these sort of toys. They need to be acquired by someone one with deep pockets (I like the idea of a tech firm like Apple) and then rework the strategy, up the prices and drastically reduce the output.   


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    997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

    2018 McLaren 720S 

    993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    How can you up the price on huge depreciation scheme for the first owner? that will have counter effect. they can't go higher and should even slightly go lower to be honest. Not sure what type of margin they are playing with but there is definitely improvements to be done here and there.

    Others will show similar weakness in the near future. PAG keeps coming back to my mind in regards to stupid pricing, milking the cow again and again...they went out of bankruptcy because of the cayenne. they need to realize cayenne's price is flirting with sports car pricing now and sports car's pricing is in supercar territory...but they are too greedy to get it done right before kissing the wall.


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Would be such a shame if McLaren goes, they have put pressure on the other makers to give more in their products and the make great sportscars now as we can see from the reviews from owners here. 


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Many once celebrated marques don't exist anymore. Names like Iso, Marcos, De Tomaso, Jensen, De Lorean, Lotus (still around as a minnow) readily come to my mind. They were once admired and they were rivaling the establishment but they all failed as business enterprises. Even Lamborghini wouldn't exist if it wasn't picked up by Piech.

    It is not so difficult to make a €250.000 car that drives well and enthuses a minority. But it is very hard to sustain in the longer term a healthy business making such cars.

    As to my point above about bought-in components, my implication was that a sportscar manufacturer must make its own engines at least, because the engine is the heart of the sportscar. Buying even the best engine available from a top subcontractor IMO deducts from the integrity of that car manufacturer.

     

     


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     


     
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